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Author Topic: Historical What If?  (Read 10325 times)

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Takiro

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Historical What If?
« on: April 09, 2010, 09:21:57 PM »

Hey gang I wanted to discuss an idea I've been kicking around for a non BattleTech alternate history. It revolves around my favorite history subject - World War 1. Following the dismal Nivelle Offensive of April 1917 the French Army experienced a series of mutinies. Historically the Germans had no idea that such widespread discontent swept the French line until the end of June when the "rebellions" had all but ended. But what if these uprising were discovered by the Central Powers? This could well have led to a very different outcome in Europe as I see it. But I'd like to get your thoughts on the subject and see if they match my vision.
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muttley

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Re: Historical What If?
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2010, 10:53:56 AM »

One hell of an opportunity for a CP's offensive!
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Takiro

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Re: Historical What If?
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 12:12:56 PM »

Precisely, a massive German offensive that could result in French surrender and British withdrawal before America entered the war in force. This would result in some very interesting events. Would the British sue for peace or pursue a more global war against Germany say for control of French colonies. With Russia also collapsing where does the AEF land to prosecute the war, Italy? Africa? Russia?
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muttley

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Re: Historical What If?
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2010, 07:16:53 PM »

Through the Italian ports up into Austria through the Brenner?
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"It matters little how we die, so long as we die better men than we imagined we could be -- and no worse than we feared." Drago Museveni, CY 8451

Ice Hellion

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Re: Historical What If?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 01:25:52 PM »

The first 2 things that came to my mind were:
- some of the French troops refused to go to the front and to attack but I don't think they would have refused to defend their positions or to go to the front to stop a German attack.
- the soldiers mutinied in Summer 1917 but I think that Kerensky had launched an offensive around the same time that could draw away German reinforcements (and the German were only able to launch their 1918 offensive after the end of the Russian front).

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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: Historical What If?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 01:44:30 PM »

I look up the Kerensky offensive but I thought that fell apart rather quickly.

In regards to the French Mutiny - I was thinking the troops just might surrender en masse like the Italians did rather than go on fighting. This would cripple the French war efforts creating holes allowing the Germans to roll up the BEF back to the channel. The army collapse would lead to the Republic's surrender but not necessarily end the war as I stated. Thoughts?
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Historical What If?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2010, 05:35:34 PM »

With the level of nationalism in this conflict, I have some serious doubts about that idea.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

FedComVet

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Re: Historical What If?
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2010, 09:04:11 PM »

If you remember correctly the Italians were late comers to the war and only joined after receiving concessions from the French and English in terms of territory. So most of Italy was questioning the whole purpose behind going to war with Germany. Plus, along the Italian front the fighting was mostly in the Alps so it was a little harder on the troops. I mean imagine sitting in your little slice of Alp heaven hearing the Germans digging a tunnel above you that they were going to fill with TNT so that they could crush you to death. That would take a toll on any man.
Now compare that with the troop on the Western Front whose home land had been invaded and whose towns were being decimated. If it came down to it, I believe the French troops would have defended their country. The German's may have advanced further into France, but they were in no way prepared to make a determined break through. Plus, if the US and England saw that France was about to fall they would have thrown old men and boys into France to try and at least slow the Germans till a proper defense could be planned.
If you really think about it Germany breaking through the French lines could have allowed Britain to flank the German Army and cut them off from Greater Germany. Allowed enough time the French Army could form a defensive line on the other side of say Paris boxing in the German's a la Stalingrad. The American's could then have landed in Belgium and pushed into Germany taking Berlin with out much of a fight. That however would require an understanding of mobile warfare, something that the military leaders of this time did not have.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Historical What If?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2010, 11:20:57 AM »

Nice thoughts FedComVet that reinforce my point of view.
However the lack of mobility is a real problem.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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