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Author Topic: Nature of Time  (Read 6067 times)

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MAD-4A

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Nature of Time
« on: March 30, 2017, 10:13:32 AM »

On another board I was discussing the movie The Final Countdown about the USS Nimitz finding itself back on December 6th 1941 and trying to stop Perl Harbor. Everyone began spouting off "Parallel Universe" ideas, Nuking Hitler etc...

The question here is:
What is the nature of Time?

The point I made is that there is no empirical evidence that any timeline other than ours exists. There are no known cases (I'm aware of) of someone who 'just appeared from no-where' with no known history and did something to change historical events. According to space-time theory, time is just another dimension of space (the "4th"), which means it only has 2 directions forward and backward there is no "sideways in time" think of a piece of paper - it is 2 dimensional you can go 1) up and down or 2) left and right, or both (diagonal) there is no way to move on the 1) Up-Down dimension except up and down, you can't move side-to-side in the 1) Up-Down dimension, you would be moving in the 2) Side-to-Side dimension. So, if time is a "4th" dimension then you can only move 2 direction in it 4) forward and backwards - not 5) side to side. Does this mean there are no "parallel universes" "beside" us in time? or is time the "2nd" super-dimension with Space (all 3 directions) being the "1st" super-dimension and the 2 overlap? or is there a 5th 'side-to-side-in-time" dimension, in which case it would stand to reason that there is also a 6th 'up-down-in-time' dimension as well.
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Dragon Cat

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Re: Nature of Time
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2017, 11:47:35 AM »

I recently watched Arrival a completely different Sci-fi experience to The Final Countdown but also one that addresses your question in a way

In one of the special features one of the Editors calls time "their power" it gives sci-fi makers the power to move people's perceptions get them to accept sudden changes in what is going on

In reality time is a fixed property, other than in your memories, it moves forward but in fiction it gives you the ability to make the unbelievable believable
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MAD-4A

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Re: Nature of Time
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2017, 01:36:08 PM »

In reality time is a fixed property, other than in your memories...
Actually, relativity (and related experiments) have shown that time is not fixed, it is just as relative as everything else.

My question is regarding the actual nature of time - in fiction coyotes run off cliffs and hang in mid-air for several seconds before falling. What do we know about the actual nature of time, is it linear or multi-dimensional?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 01:37:01 PM by MAD-4A »
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worktroll

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Re: Nature of Time
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2017, 09:32:52 PM »

From a mathematical point of view, time is a dimension, much like the usual height-width-depth ones we deal with. At the microscopic scale, many processes are reversible - eg. they work just as well one way as in reverse. Use energy to split a water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen? Combine hydrogen & oxygen, and get just as much energy back.

At our level, though, we only see time move one way - known as the 'arrow of time'. It's related to entropy - the nature of systems to wind down. If you start with a glass of ice, it absorbs heat & becomes water - but a glass of water never emits enough heat to become a glass of ice. It takes more energy to chill the water to ice than is released by it (check the back of a fridge sometime; it's warm, and that's both the heat removed from the inside, plus more heat to make it happen).

Yes, relative time depends on your relative velocity compared to each other (there's no universal standard to measure against. No justice, just us!). Objects moving with the same velocity will experience the same rate of time. Objects moving much faster than others will see time passing more rapidly on those objects; those objects see time passing more slowly on the fast mover. You need speeds at large fractions of C to see much effect, but we know it's happening every time you use your phone - the in-phone GPS has to calculate that the rate of time on the orbiting satellites is a teeny bit slower than the rate of time down here, because they're moving much faster. But it's a tiny fractional effect.

Why do we only experience time going one way? No-one knows. Maybe conciousness is related to entropy - in the same way a twig in a river can only see the banks going past.  But from a scientific point of view, it's just another dimension.

Now the "many worlds" hypothesis - splitting timelines - ties into quantum theory. In short, every time there's a choice at some level - eg. an atom emits an electron, that could go in X direction - all of these happen, just all in a separate, new timeline. So flip a coin, cause two complete new universes! And your conciousness ends up in both, but the one reading this doesn't have any way to know that the other one exists.

Some sci-fi writers have used this to get around the grandfather paradox in time travel. Go back in time & kill your grandfather, so you'll never be born? Fine! Just in this new shiny timeline. Technically quantum physics doesn't prevent this. But it does prevent you from ever going back to your original timeline. But the odds on this are low - there are other good reasons why time travel is unlikely to be possible.

(And if someone did sideslip from the steampunk universe into this one, odds are they'd be taken into custody as a raving loony, and put into an asylum for care. Assuming he/she ended up in a 1st world country. Imagine being a time-traveller appearing in Soviet Russia, with no papers, and a ridiculous story ...)

Just remember,

1) Quantum makes sense proportionally to inebriation
2) Friends don't let friends break causuality.

W.
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MAD-4A

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Re: Nature of Time
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2017, 02:00:15 PM »

Now the "many worlds" hypothesis - splitting timelines - ties into quantum theory. In short, every time there's a choice at some level - eg. an atom emits an electron, that could go in X direction - all of these happen, just all in a separate, new timeline. So flip a coin, cause two complete new universes! And your conciousness ends up in both, but the one reading this doesn't have any way to know that the other one exists.

Some sci-fi writers have used this to get around the grandfather paradox in time travel. Go back in time & kill your grandfather, so you'll never be born? Fine! Just in this new shiny timeline. Technically quantum physics doesn't prevent this. But it does prevent you from ever going back to your original timeline.
Actually, there is no way the act of "flipping a coin" produces enough energy to create an entire universe. The actual mechanic is that time is 2 (or 3) dimensional. with time extending sideways as well as forward/backwards, and there are 'universes' running parallel to each other. Like rows of corn in a corn field, and each universe is just slightly off from each other. So the universe just to the (temporal) 'right' would not have intelligent dinosaurs running around, but maybe just red-yellow-and-blue traffic lights, everything else is identical. Further over (temporal miles lets say) there would be a universe where Earth still has dinosaurs. Every possible outcome happens in these universes with one having your coin landing face up and another (completely independent and unrelated) universe just happens to be exactly identical to this one but with the coin landing tails up. they are not directly related or influencing each other, it's just that the energy of the two universes are ALMOST identical and so they are almost identical. With an infinitely long dimension (of right & left time) there are an infinite number of universes and every possible outcome happens in one, in-fact every possible outcome happens in an infinite number of them, so there are an infinite number of universes EXACTLY like this one in every way.
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"When Did Ignorance Become a Point of View?"
(Scott Adams - 978-0740718397)
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