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A Universe Without Amaris
« on: April 29, 2009, 07:01:13 PM »
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I was thinking about this earlier today. Considering Stephan's mother almost never bothered to get married and have an heir in the first place, what would have happened if she had not? An obvious threat to the health of the Star League would be removed, but many problems would remain. The Periphery would still be on the road to revolt. Simon Cameron would still be most likely assassinated, and Richard at the end of the day is still a fool. Can the League survive? What happens to the Rim Worlds Republic. Can tragedy be averted?
Discuss. Smiley
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 10:16:11 PM »
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Is this a world without Stefan Amaris or does the entire Amaris line die off? I mean if Stephan's mother dies the nearest Amaris would take up the reigns of power. Likely she would have appointed a successor but it is possible she does not. Likely Succession Crisis on the Rim which could touch off a whole series of problems. Doubtlessly the Star League would intervene, perhaps a Great House or two as well, native Rim Worlders would probably want their say on who would lead, and lets not forget all those Terran carpetbaggers. Not to mention the byzantine culture of Rim politics you could be in for a very bloody situation.
Richard would doubtlessly latch on to another fantasy and/or friend I don't see him changing much. Who knows maybe The First Lord would become your enemy, an evil Cameron? In any event the path to war has been paved. I doubt such a conflict could be avoided however the League may remain intact afterwards.
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2009, 12:19:32 AM »
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Quote from: Takiro on April 29, 2009, 10:16:11 PM
Is this a world without Stefan Amaris or does the entire Amaris line die off? I mean if Stephan's mother dies the nearest Amaris would take up the reigns of power. Likely she would have appointed a successor but it is possible she does not. Likely Succession Crisis on the Rim which could touch off a whole series of problems. Doubtlessly the Star League would intervene, perhaps a Great House or two as well, native Rim Worlders would probably want their say on who would lead, and lets not forget all those Terran carpetbaggers. Not to mention the byzantine culture of Rim politics you could be in for a very bloody situation.
Richard would doubtlessly latch on to another fantasy and/or friend I don't see him changing much. Who knows maybe The First Lord would become your enemy, an evil Cameron? In any event the path to war has been paved. I doubt such a conflict could be avoided however the League may remain intact afterwards.
It's only a case of Stefan not being born, not a complete dying out of the Amaris clan. Of course considering canon sources suggest that there were very few members of the Amaris family who were in direct line for succession at that point, so yes a crisis was eminent. But such crisises had happened before in the Rim Worlds, and the Star League never bothered to get to deeply involved. I mean, a legitimate heir to the RWR Presidency was murdered in cold blood with a knife in the 2690's, another had been killed by his own military chiefs almost a century earlier. The League did not send in troops during those emergencies, and I don't see why they would circa 2740.
I think the bigger problem is what Richard would do. Without even Amaris to latch onto, what would such an angry and petty young man end up doing when he came of age? The Periphery rebels would not be as well armed in this timeline (because Amaris would not be arming them), but they would rebel. And there would be no coup to stop the SLDF from fighting that war. Kerensky was a man of morals however, so how far could Richard push him before the General decides he has to put his foot down? And of course the Council Lords would be in the background, but would they be so bold as to actively defy the League while a Cameron still sat on the throne?
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2009, 02:34:55 PM »
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So no hope of redemption for the weary sinner?
Couldn't Kerensky succeed in putting Richard on the right tracks?
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."
The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2009, 03:09:14 PM »
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When did Kerensky ever bother to raise Richard? Richard was already a teenager by the time Kerensky bothered to teach him anything, and speechs about the nobility of the common man would not fill the void within the young First Lord's heart.
I believe a lot of our character is innate. Sure it's important to have positive role models to guide us and provide examples on how to live, but our character provides the template for how we act on those lessons. Richard was not a very nice person, even without Amaris around to influence him. He was arrogant and self-righteous and had little regard for anyone of common birth. Those kinds of personality defects would get him into trouble with everyone around him.
Maybe the sinner does get a chance at redemption, but he has to admit his faults first. What would it take for Richard to see the light?
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2009, 03:57:14 PM »
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I tend to agree with that FSL. You do learn a significant amount of information over a life time but you are more than just the sum of that knowledge.
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2009, 02:15:02 PM »
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Quote from: FirstStarLord on April 30, 2009, 03:09:14 PM
When did Kerensky ever bother to raise Richard? Richard was already a teenager by the time Kerensky bothered to teach him anything, and speechs about the nobility of the common man would not fill the void within the young First Lord's heart.
You are right but he was already under Amaris' influence.
Quote from: FirstStarLord on April 30, 2009, 03:09:14 PM
I believe a lot of our character is innate. Sure it's important to have positive role models to guide us and provide examples on how to live, but our character provides the template for how we act on those lessons. Richard was not a very nice person, even without Amaris around to influence him. He was arrogant and self-righteous and had little regard for anyone of common birth. Those kinds of personality defects would get him into trouble with everyone around him.
Perhaps but we all know arrogant and self-righteous people seeing the light (and probably more not seeing it).
Quote from: FirstStarLord on April 30, 2009, 03:09:14 PM
Maybe the sinner does get a chance at redemption, but he has to admit his faults first. What would it take for Richard to see the light?
Good question: who would be his model?
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."
The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2009, 05:56:20 PM »
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The problem with Richard is that he has no real role model to turn to in canon. If you take Amaris out of the picture, you still have a lonely little boy surrounded by court officials who provided him without any sort of affection. I really doubt he would turn out much better as a person.
Richard might learn his lesson after the Star League goes down in flames after he wrecks the SLDF and the Territorial States in a long a grueling war while the House Lord continue to build up their armies, but at that point it would be a little too late to stop some sort of major war from breaking out. It would be more of an question at that point if said war break out in 2785, 2800 or perhaps whenever Richard kicks the bucket. If it's the latter, perhaps the Council Lords start fighting over whether Richard's daughter really deserves to have the throne of First Lord, feeling that it time for someone other then a Cameron to rule over the Star League. A war like that would be really devastating even by the standards of the regular timeline because the Houses get have a few more decades to stockpile arms and build warships. Plus the Terrans would basically be the sixth Successor State, trying to reclaim their place as the leader of humanity among not one usurper, but five!
Another major possibility in such a alternate timeline would be that Kerensky would never be able to go on the Exodus. The General would never think of doing such a thing as long as Richard still lived, and even if he grew disgusted with his boss, Kerensky might simply become to old to do anything at that point. That is of course if Richard does not fire him first in a fit of anger. The most important change in all of this would be the Clans would never be formed, so the Inner Sphere would basically be allowed to fight its wars without anyone from the outside coming in to ruin the fun. That might have indirect consequences on the formation of the Word of Blake as well, depending on how much you beleive the ideas that have been put forth in recent sourcebooks.
The fate of the Rim Worlds Republic would also be a major issue. Without Stefan Amaris, the Republic would probably never fall. But it would be much weaker militarily without a strong leader like Stefan to push for the construction of new weapons factories and the training of secret armies. It would also never have recieved the secret Terran Hegemony technology from Richard as it did in the normal timeline. When the Star League finally goes bust, it would also lose many of it worlds in the subsequent cut off from water purifiers and fusion engine spare parts from Terra. Furthermore, if the Lyrans start acting stupid (and aren't they always Tongue), they might try to conquer the Republic during the course of the Succession Wars, as part of a plan to secure their borders on the Periphery. Or maybe the Combine decides to try to conquer part of the Rim World to strengthen their attempts to outflank the Lyrans. Or maybe, just maybe, the Republic become an important power in the Inner Sphere because it acts as a check on its two neighbors, courting favor with other nations like the Federated Suns, the Free Worlds League and the Terran Hegemony (if the Terrans can survive being swallowed up).
The more I think of it, I wonder if this is really how it should have gone down in the original timeline. It's far more rational then the original storyline, and potentially even more bloody!
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2009, 07:59:56 PM »
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An idea I'd been toying around with is this; what if the SLDF isn't that beat up (No Periphery Mech Divisions), The Terran resource base is not as depleted as in BTSD. Now lets borrow a couple of names (We can change them later.) Nominal First Lord Amanda Cameron tries to hold everything together. As first the Draconis Combine, then the Free Worlds League sceede from the Star League the loyal units of the SLDF under General and Consort Ian Sinclair (Lets keep these two kids together, they're cute.) execute campaigns in both nations that go well initally but when the Capellan Confederation attacks the Loyalist Federated Suns things begin to bog down.
The continued warfare has a drastic influence on Terran society. Humanity must be brought under one government...Now! The increasing brutallity of the Terrans shocks the Lyran Commonwealth into declaring itself neutral. With pressure relived on them by the sudden turn of events the DCMS and FWLM launch into vicious counterattacks that push the SLDF almost to the breaking point. The DCMS also attacks into the FedSuns in a wave of vengeance, knocking the AFFS competely out of the Combine and the Draconis March.
John Davion, sickened by the conflict prepares to negotiate a truce with Minoru Kurita. Before talks can get underway a wave of assasinations strikes the Davion line John, Joshua and Paul are all struck down, evidence points to the Combine. Riding the wave of outrage, First Lord Amanda installs the Duchess of Chesterton Sarah Davion as First Prince, with her husband a minor SLDF officer as Prince's Champion. (This will have dire consequences for the Terrans when the new leader and her husband learn who truly was behind John's murder.) Working in concert with Field Marshal Gwen Haesk on the Capellan Front, Field Marshal Gilmour manages to stabilize the Fed Suns situation.
Then Kentares happens. Driven wild the AFFS pushes the Combine as far back as Benjamin before running out of steam with Jinjiro captured at Robinson. Cut off in thier advance two whole Combine Army Groups are destroyed by the Terrans. Meanwhile in a secret meeting, Sarah Davion and Barbara Liao sign a non agression treaty on Chesterton. Barbara, who's hatred of Kenyon Marik knows no bounds after the Free Worlds League troops open withdrawl of support on the Terran Front led to the destuction of three of the six Northwind Highlander formations along with numerous attending regiments on Chesterton by a SLDF/AFFS task force, orders the CCAF to "Carve a path to Atreus thirty light years wide."
The beginings of a new century dawn with the Star League in shambles. Wounded but still strong the Dragon under Coordinator Zabu Kurita after Jinjiro is executed on New Avalon rebuilds its strength. The Terran Hegemony although weary of conflict prepares grimly for for the next round of the Reunification War. The Lyran Commonwealth having been bogged down in the Rim Worlds Republic begins to suffer it's first setbacks as the Dragon turns its attentions to the relatvely untouched Steiners.
The Free Worlds League feeling the strain of trying to contain the SLDF juggernaut may be mortally wounded if it cannot stop the vengful Capellans. Amanda Cameron however wonders just why it's so quiet on the FedSuns/CapCom border.... Sarah Davion begins to chafe at the Terrans treating her beloved Suns as a puppet state while her husband has made headway in rebuilding the AFFS into a lean efficient fighting force. (Err well, the Avalon Hussars any way.) The biggest question for the pair is this...who is will they be fighting?
Okay, Through a Mirror twice over and even more Darkly anyone.
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2009, 04:48:54 PM »
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Why not go for something a little brighter?
Wouldn't the election of a new First Lord bring hope all over the Realms?
And what about the idea of making a big tour in the Inner Sphere like Simon?
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."
The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2009, 08:01:00 PM »
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Quote from: Ice Hellion on May 12, 2009, 04:48:54 PM
Why not go for something a little brighter?
Wouldn't the election of a new First Lord bring hope all over the Realms?
And what about the idea of making a big tour in the Inner Sphere like Simon?
I'm just looking at real history and drawing a logical conclusion. Let's use the Holy Roman Empire as an example. In the early 18th century Emperor Charles V spent much of his energy and time trying to secure the right for his only child (the female Maria Theresa) to inherit all of his titles when he died. He exacted agreements from all of the major kings of Europe and the Electors of the Empire. Then in 1740 Charles dies suddenly (some claim he was poisoned), and can you guess what happened? Frederick II of Prussia (known to history as "the Great") invades Austria to claim territory that he believes no longer belongs to the Hapsburgs due to the matrilineal succession. And what do the Electors do? They refuse to confirm poor Maria Theresa as Empress! Should I note that Frederick was one of those Electors? Calling it a conflict of intrest would be a gross understatement.
Of course, Maria Therese would grow to be one of the greatest monarchs of the 18th century, and she would eventually extract a measure of revenge on her enemies. For instance, she became Empress by marrying the guy who was elected! She managed to rally her kingdom to fight off Frederick's invasions as well, but some territory was forever lost. Not to mention the world was plunged into a series of protracted and bloody wars that would last until 1763, and serve as the spark for another set of conflicts, one that lasted from 1775-1783 and another that lasted from 1793-1815.
My point is that people are greedy. Sometimes they promise one thing and do another Amanda might be a brilliant ruler, Richard himself might step down in a desperate bid to save the League and restore confidence in the Camerons, and the other Great Lords might even make an agreement allowing Amanda to claim the title of First Lord... and then start a war over succession rights anyway.
Oh and I would hope Amanda would avoid making a tour of the Inner Sphere to promote peace. Considering what happened to her grandfather when he tried the same thing... that may not work out so well for her.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 04:45:42 PM by FirstStarLord » Report to moderator 69.122.151.151 (?)
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2009, 02:05:11 PM »
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Quote from: FirstStarLord on May 12, 2009, 08:01:00 PM
and can you guess what happened.
I know rather well what happened Roll Eyes
Quote from: FirstStarLord on May 12, 2009, 08:01:00 PM
Frederick II of Prussia (known to history as "the Great") invades Austria to claim territory that he believes no longer belongs to the Hapsburgs due to the matrilineal succession. And what do the Electors do? They refuse to confirm poor Maria Theresa as Empress! Should I note that Frederick was one of those Electors? Calling it a conflict of intrest would be a gross understatement.
However Frederick also wanted to use the army his father had built and never used (fear of losing his toy) while showing he was a greater ruler than his father.
I do agree on the peace tour problem, I was just pointing out a possibility.
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."
The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2009, 04:49:07 PM »
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Quote from: Ice Hellion on May 13, 2009, 02:05:11 PM
However Frederick also wanted to use the army his father had built and never used (fear of losing his toy) while showing he was a greater ruler than his father.
The whole 1st Succession War was an excuse for Minoru Kurita to unleash the army his father had built up to show what a great and mighty ruler he was.
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2009, 03:31:57 PM »
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Quote from: FirstStarLord on May 13, 2009, 04:49:07 PM
The whole 1st Succession War was an excuse for Minoru Kurita to unleash the army his father had built up to show what a great and mighty ruler he was.
Interesting theory.
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."
The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2009, 07:05:09 AM »
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Quote from: Ice Hellion on May 12, 2009, 04:48:54 PM
Why not go for something a little brighter?
Wouldn't the election of a new First Lord bring hope all over the Realms?
And what about the idea of making a big tour in the Inner Sphere like Simon?
Bright? I thought this was BattleTech, LOL. Seriously, when I write a scenario like this I am always looking for story points and plot hooks just figured this one has a hell of a lot of 'em.
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2009, 01:24:57 PM »
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But you can make it brighter and then throw everyone in Hell.
People will be more desperate.
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."
The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2009, 01:35:52 PM »
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It was bright and happy for a good 120 years (2600-2720). How many times in real life has the world had more then a century of absolute peace and massive technological advancement?
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2009, 01:43:37 PM »
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Bright for whom?
And the future looks grim, we could lighten it a bit and then hit them back.
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."
The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2009, 02:04:47 PM »
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Well, I feel like this timeline is going to be less depressing then the regular BT anyway. The Clans and Comstar will never be formed (at least in a form recognizable from canon). If the Hegemony can ward off its enemies, then many of its most advanced worlds can keep their technology and prevent the great decline in living standards that happened in the original timeline. The RWR could be a stablizing influence on the Periphery, keeping pairacy under control.
It's going to be bad, and the Star League may die and the Camerons might end up becoming irrelevent or replaced by some other Terran dynasty. But Humanity as a whole would be able to rebuild faster and face fewer "threats from beyond" that hurt then so much in regular Battletech.
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2009, 02:16:18 PM »
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Without Amaris? Quite a difference. Let's explore a few things I think might happen.
Richard is still a spoiled brat (raised by syphocants, on tales of Avalon and Arthur). Amaris may well have corrupted him, but the seeds are still there. Kerensky is still not around, as this is a time of troubles. When Richard assumes power, he may not go as far, but the basic desires are there: disarm the Member States, use the Territorial States as money machines.
Without Amaris and his factories, there are not as many forces available to the TC, MoC, and OA, but (while it may take longer, another decade or two) Richard's policies WILL force the same results.
What if Kerensky is killed in the Periphery Uprising--and there is no Amaris? Without Kerensky to hold the SLDF together, could we be looking at a SL Civil War between two or three (or even four) factions of the SLDF? Richard's stupidity causes the problems; perhaps he makes a grevious error, causing a high-ranking officer to decide that the Star League can no longer afford to have him on the throne. We have coups and counter-coups, and the SLDF tears itself apart fighting itself.
The Periphery succeeds--who is going to stop them when the SLDF is so occupied? Without the SLDF to get in the way, Minoru invades the Federated Suns, and Marik hits Liao. The 1st Succession War, but orders of magnitude worse.
You know, this could be a good setting for a story. LOL
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Re: A Universe Without Amaris
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2009, 07:44:38 PM »
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<starts chanting> do it...do it...do it... Cheesy You're right, it would make a great story.
