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Author Topic: Minoru Lives  (Read 11978 times)

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drakensis

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Minoru Lives
« on: April 15, 2011, 06:19:17 AM »

At the moment this is just a concept I'm playing around with:

In 2796, after ten years of fighting, the DCMS had reached worlds only one jump from New Avalon. Minoru Kurita, having ordered a three month halt to resupply and to subdue AFFS forces that had been bypassed, was shot by an AFFS infantryman on Kentares IV.

But what if the infantryman missed?

What if New Avalon was taken by the DCMS and the First Prince of the Federated Suns (maybe Joh, Paul or one of the other Beatles Davions) came to terms? Ceded their claim to the Star League and scores or hundreds of worlds for peace and took themselves out of the Succession Wars.

Could House Kurita turn that into a long term military advantage and restoration of the Star League? And what would a rebounding Federated Suns, spared decades of war, be considering fifty years later when looking at their war-weary neighbours?
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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2011, 07:10:09 AM »

I am coming to think that you have far too much time on your hands.

Interesting thought though.  I'll have to wait for the wine to wear off before deep thooughts.
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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2011, 10:02:41 AM »

if it came to coming to terms I think the Combine would want the whole of the Draconis March

Given that I'd expect the Davions to keep fighting
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drakensis

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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2011, 04:11:39 PM »

I am coming to think that you have far too much time on your hands.

Interesting thought though.  I'll have to wait for the wine to wear off before deep thooughts.
70-80 minutes time to think while walking to and from work five days a week. An idle mind is my muse's plaything.

if it came to coming to terms I think the Combine would want the whole of the Draconis March

Given that I'd expect the Davions to keep fighting
The Federated Suns was in very bad condition at the time. I've got a reasonably accurate map of the pre-Succession Wars borders and I mapped out what worlds were known to be in Combine hands. The DCMS had driven over 200 light years deep into their territory and the frontline was in  FedSuns industrial heartlands. The CCAF had pushed an advance clean across the Capellan March (admittedly easier in those days) and had taken some industrial worlds of the Crucis March - almost halfway to New Avalon themselves.

The terms I had in mind was the DC taking all the worlds they occupy (their definition of occupy) except New Avalon and taking over the contracts for all AFFS employed mercenaries and the AFFS accepting a size limitation compared to the DCMS (large enough that the Capellans don't finish them off). That costs the FedSuns a deep salient of perhaps fifty worlds and a score or so of border worlds. And many of those worlds are valuable industrial worlds. On the other hand, it does mean that the FedSuns survives which wasn't looking all that likely.
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Knightmare

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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2011, 05:05:48 PM »

First off, like the idea. It's certainly and interesting proposition worth exploring.

I just don't know how long a situation like the one you've just described would last drakensis. In the short term, I think it would play out how you've described, but within a generation or so (10-20 years tops) the "free" worlds of the FedSuns will be chafing at the bit. Disregard the payback the gutted FedSuns nobility would be planning for a minute, but outside of annexing the FedSuns as a client state - i.e. the Suns exists in name only, with either a chosen Warlord or Draconis Noble running the show - I don't see the unoccupied worlds sitting idle. If anything, the situation you've presented would incur something much larger but similar to how the Taurians act under occupation. Perhaps not as extreme at first, but given a little bit of time...

The real curve ball is how the FedSuns would react to the defeat/occupation. Seeing as how the nation has never really been conquered or occupied to a similar extent, we lack comparative canon source material. That being said, we might be able to draw some parallels using source material from the FedCom Civil War and Jihad occupations/conflicts as a basis.

For example, how did the FedSuns' civilian population react to Katrina once they considered her a "foreign" head of state or usurper? Use that as a basic barometer for a perceived occupation response mechanism. Now since the occupier would be the DC, you can multiply the same response by whatever factor you decide. (I'd use region as a mitigating variable as well.)

Just something to think about. 

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drakensis

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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2011, 05:46:09 PM »

The treaty offer is probably about what the pre-war expectation was: fight until the opposed state acknowledged your Lord as the First Star Lord. Then repeat until you have enough of a majority that the others have to accept you. Absent the Kentares Massacre, the political will to refuse might not exist in the battered Federated Suns of the late 2790s.

By around the mid-29th century I'm fairly sure that the FedSuns would be itching to rise again. It's not a stable situation. But their opportunity to do so would depend on what the rest of the Inner Sphere would do.

Annexing the Federated Suns would pretty definitely leave the DCMS critically over-extended so that's not going to happen. On the other hand, the Combine seems to be fairly efficient at assimilating/suppressing populations during their advance on Lyran worlds so they might be able to impose a fairly effective regieme on their new holdings.

So lets look at this in time slices. In the first decade of the 29th century the FS is probably focusing what remains of the AFFS on holding back the Capellans, with a side-order of piecing their economy back together with whatever surplus they can scrape together. The DCMS, bolstered by their new province's industry (against which is the need to garrison it), shifts focus to the Lyran Commonwealth. Given how well they did in canon where they were getting kicked hard by the AFFS and still managed sizeable advances, I think it's safe to say that considerable gains are made at Lyran expense, particularly since the Free Worlds League is also hitting the Lyrans hard.

By the second decade, I think it's likely that Ilsa Liao, being a pragmatist, would have made peace with the Federated Suns in order to concentrate her efforts against the Free Worlds League and Draconis Combine. Other than Chesterton, the Federated Suns doesn't have much that she wants, and she might well have that by this point. The question is, does she make Minoru Kurita an offer? She was willing to cede her claim to the Davions, her ancestral enemies, whereas there were no major hostilities to the Combine. Ultimately I think it would depend on how the 'Kurita Star League' had treated the Federated Suns: if they gave more than lip service to the notion of the Combine being first among equals as the Hegemony had been rather than treating it as a conquered province, I think Ilsa Liao would be willing to offer Minoru her vote in return for quite minor concessions.

Even the DCMS is probably exhausted by the mid 2810s, but the Combine is almost certainly the strongest state by a fair margin. The Lyrans might well accept a peace treaty and reform the Star League Council, accepting the Kurita-controlled majority electing the elderly Minoru Kurita as First Star Lord. Isolated, Thaddeus Marik would probably be faced with a choice between rejoining the Star League as arguably the second most powerful state... or being forced to rejoin after another deblitating war.

Jinjiro dying on a battlefield before this point would probably be good for the Combine. It's unlikely that Minoru would live far into the 2820s (his father and grandfather lived to be 120, his sons were 94 and 84 when they died, and probably would have lived longer were it not for insanity in one case and an assassin in the other). Jinjiro on the Star Lord's throne... is not good news. Zabu, on the other hand, would probably be quite capable.

Who have I missed? Well Jerome Blake might well still be alive - he only died in 2819 so there are reasonable odds of living long enough to see the Star League reborn, which would probably lead to Conrad Toyama taking a different route with control of ComStar. And more than a thousand light years distant, the nascent Clans are still fighting to take control of the Pentagon.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2011, 05:15:53 PM »

The Federated Suns would probably have reacted in a way similar to the Whirling Dervishes of New Rhodes.
I don't expect it to leave the Draconis Combine in peace and it might have triggered the installation of a true military dictatorship.
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The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

drakensis

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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 04:08:10 AM »

The Federated Suns would probably have reacted in a way similar to the Whirling Dervishes of New Rhodes.
Do you mean that the leadership would refuse a treaty and order such raids or that their soliders would refuse to acknowledge the treaty and raid anyway?

I don't expect it to leave the Draconis Combine in peace and it might have triggered the installation of a true military dictatorship.
Very true. The question would be whether the FS can resolve their political, economic and military crises before the Star League is recreated.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2011, 01:33:28 PM »

What I meant was that fights might get hotter and hotter and that the Federated Suns units could well border on the Kamikaze side.

As for the question, can the Federated Suns make it before a new Star League is born? The answer is probably yes as severe shocks like this in a proud nation like the Federated Suns would create the needed conditions for such a dictatorship to emerge.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 03:01:08 PM by Ice Hellion »
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2011, 06:41:22 AM »

Interesting if the Dragon is wounded and not killed on Kentares. In canon history the Capellans did offer the Combine an alliance but the Dracs were far too arrogant to accept at the time. Perhaps this event humbles the Coordinator to talk to the Chancellor especially in light of the brief respite he authorizes for the DCMS. A Kurita-Liao alliance acting jointly could then strike directly at New Avalon to deliver the final blow knocking out the Federated Suns. A member of the Kurita-Davion line could then be "rightfully" placed on the throne as a Draconis puppet securing three of the five Successor States. Reaction of Marik and Steiner to these events would sure be interesting not to mention what is Blake to do? Is Terra the next target of this Eastern Alliance? Could ComStar forge a Steiner-Marik Alliance? What of the Periphery? They have no love of another would be First Lord, would they try to strike with a terrorist act??
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drakensis

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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2011, 07:57:59 AM »

Holy crap. I'd completely forgotten about the Davion-Kurita line!

That's perfect. I mean - it sets up for a disasterous conflict inside the Federated Suns, so yes, that's terrible, but for a story that's very useful.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2011, 03:02:55 PM »

And perhaps a March could get away, claiming to be the rightful Federated Suns (just look at the Byzantine Empire after the Crusaders took Constantinople).
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2011, 06:00:58 PM »

No problem Drak, there may only be 1 or 2 members alive at this time depending on the Debacle at New Rhodes which goes down roughly at the same time as Kentares. They would have a very legal claim to the New Avalon throne.

It is possible that the old Outworld March centered on Filtvelt could breakaway and be another Periphery realm that the new Star League to contend with.

The Combine could also try to put a claimant back on the Rim Worlds throne as they have close ties to that region now oppressed by the Commonwealth.
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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 05:52:23 PM »

Interesting if the Dragon is wounded and not killed on Kentares. In canon history the Capellans did offer the Combine an alliance but the Dracs were far too arrogant to accept at the time. Perhaps this event humbles the Coordinator to talk to the Chancellor especially in light of the brief respite he authorizes for the DCMS.

Or quite the opposite. If you're already smitten with arrogance, surviving a near fatal attack might continue to reinforce the belief of invincibility. Personally, I doubt Min's attitude would change much except, perhaps to refocus his drive for New Avalon with even more ferocity and single mindedness. 

Could ComStar forge a Steiner-Marik Alliance? What of the Periphery?

I highly doubt ComStar could get the Steiners and the Mariks to agree to anything, let alone an alliance. Keep in mind, this is right after or during the assaults on the Bolan Thumb and FWL border, where use of WMDs was at its highest. The ferocity of the war between these two states is technically at an all time high. Also remember that ComStar is in its infancy. They'll lack clout and a lot of resources at this point, having just spent quite a bit repairing the HPG network. Since claiming Terra, they've had only a few decades in the saddle. Plus, this is pre-Order ComStar and it's domination bent. The existing corporate setup was sans-Toyama's control.

No problem Drak, there may only be 1 or 2 members alive at this time depending on the Debacle at New Rhodes which goes down roughly at the same time as Kentares. They would have a very legal claim to the New Avalon throne.

Well, a legal claim - no, not really. That hole was closed after the War of Davion Succession. Then again, if the Dracs sack New Avalon, they'd be the most logical choice to supplant the ruling Davion line. To the victor go the spoils, and the right to prop up their puppet government.  :)


« Last Edit: April 20, 2011, 05:55:30 PM by Knightmare »
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Minoru Lives
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2011, 03:19:42 PM »

Well, a legal claim - no, not really. That hole was closed after the War of Davion Succession. Then again, if the Dracs sack New Avalon, they'd be the most logical choice to supplant the ruling Davion line. To the victor go the spoils, and the right to prop up their puppet government.  :)

And my counter puppet state could rise again  ;D
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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