Topic: Post Lapsum (AU Idea in Progress) (Read 7248 times)

Dread Moores · « **on:** June 03, 2012, 11:45:21 PM »

So, I'm browsing over the 3130 map on Oystein's site and comparing it to the 3144 overlay that has been floating around the BT forums. I started thinking about the Jihad, and some really rusty wheels started turning again. Then I stumbled across this line in Jihad Secrets: Blake Documents.

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Second, most House intelligence agencies were very well aware that the Word had built up its military strength, and suspected as many as fifty regiments of various types (or up to two hundred, in â€œworst-caseâ€ scenarios) had formed to fight for Blakeâ€™s Will. Not the twenty or so alleged by ComStarâ€™s Field Manual publication. Of course, we now know for certain that the Blakists managed to field just over one hundred regiments at their peak, though many of these may have been only semioperational when they were first called into action.

Emphasis mine. Since the Jihad story line closed out, I have to admit a certain amount of displeasure. See, I actually think the Dark Age is a great thing for BT. My problem is that the Jihad was a let down. It wasn't near damaging enough (and a little bit too much hand-waving away stupidity on the part of the Blakists, at least for my tastes). The tone of the early Jihad quickly gets lost in the shuffle, and it very much seems to just meander to its conclusion.

So the old AU gears started grumbling and begrudgingly cranking along. Combining the above thoughts, along with some of Knightmare's thoughts on micro-states (and my own utter fascination with the idea of having an actual indepdent Skye faction and an independent Azami faction), I came up with Post Lapsum (After the Fall). Forgive the piss-poor Latin. I haven't had the motivation yet to go find a proper translation, and simply went with ancient and out date knowledge of Latin from school days. Now, up front notice. I don't work AUs like most of you folks do. I'm not interested in pouring out reams of fiction or horrifically detailed netbooks. I respect the hell out of those who can and do so. But I've always been an RPGer at heart, so my natural inclination will always be: "Paint the broad strokes, and let the folks on the ground sort out the good stories." On top of that, it's also a seed of an idea currently. I'll get into specifics sometime later (as I'm up far too late currently), but I'll leave these few thoughts for germination. Keep in mind that this AU would likely be picking up at least 50 or 100 years out from 3150, so future growth from the current storyline will play in to events.

1. The Word of Blake "worst-case scenarios" were true. Additionally, they fought united with a clear goal in mind from the beginning. The idea that they were going for the Clans was always a red herring. Ramifications of that?

2. Food for thought. The Wolf Empire in 3144 may possibly hold Solaris VII and Kalidasa.

3. An independent Skye faction that HAS Hesperus. How would you want it to happen?

4. What exactly are the "core" Azami worlds? Does a map of them exist somewhere?

5. Skye and the Lyran Commonwealth as trade partners in a separate but semi-equal arrangement. Can it work?

6. What happens to the Falcons after the resolution (one way or the other) of Malvina's Mongol philosophy? How do they change as a result of it?

7. The Wolf Empire, now fully removed from the reach of the Clans. Can you see the Exiles going home at some point? Does the Empire differ from the Clans in a drastic fashion?

8. If the MoC and Andurien have united in some permanent fashion, what's the balance of power like there?

9. Does the reunited Free Worlds League make it? What does it take for them to survive, let alone prosper?

10. How does the interstellar stage change with the Capellans very likely being the most stable (and potentially, most powerful) Successor State?

11. What happens if Fortress Republic remains unbroken and silent long after anybody expected it would? How do the power dynamics change if the Terran Corridor is now an impassable object in the Inner Sphere?

Dread Moores · « **Reply #1 on:** June 04, 2012, 10:44:12 AM »

A few more random thoughts.

12. The Lyran Commonwealth lacking Hesperus (possibly trade access with Skye) and Solaris (it falls under Wolf Empire territory). That makes for some rather interesting changes in what they produce, along with some serious change in priorities (giving up Hesperus reflects the death of the idea about Hesperus' invincibility, which does make some degree of sense considering it fell during the Jihad).

13. With both the Combine and the Suns possibly heading into civil wars in the late Dark Age, is there potential for further micro-state fractures within these nations? Where and how? I kind of like the idea of Filtevelt/the Outback March going indepedent, and I've already mentioned the potential Azami faction. If the DC fractures further, there's even potential to see more Nova Cats join up with the Sharks and the Spirit Cats in the Clan Protectorate. I do enjoy the idea of shaking up the standard placement of the former Clan forces.

14. If Terra is inaccessible due to Fortress Republic (for an extended period of time), who exactly is running the shattered HPG network? Do you imagine the Houses finally picking this back up? Does ComStar have a back up "central hub" outside of the Fortress?

15. Poor little Regulus. Reformed FWL on one side, and possibly Canopian/Andurien alliance on the other. Seems to me that somebody might be a little grumpy.

16. All of those lovely Prefecture worlds that are outside the Fortress, but haven't yet been claimed by a major player (or minor player, like the Senate Alliance). Results of their existence (other than more smashy stompy time)?

drakensis · « **Reply #2 on:** June 04, 2012, 01:29:11 PM »

I'm not familiar with the 3144 overlay you refer to and I've only read a few of the Dark Age books, so take this with a pinch of salt.

If you want a true Dark Age then an era of exhausted peace is probably not the way to get it. So have the Jihad finish with the weakened Clans and Successor States squabbling over the Blakist Protectorate and slid into even more wars (as much to keep the focus away from the worlds they're trying to reintegrate. So after a couple of decades of no-holds-barred fighting against the WoB (with HPG stations no longer neutral and therefore valid and desirable targets), they get another generation of raid and counter-raid that makes it almost impossible to rebuild from the damage and knocks out much of the development since 3025.

Of course if you want to keep closer to the canonical Dark Ages, never mind.

Dragon Cat · « **Reply #3 on:** June 04, 2012, 03:29:27 PM »

I think the end of the DA Republic era isn't a bad place to start

There's plenty potential problem areas there that could fracture the IS even more

The Wolf Empire is a great place to start its a proper spanner in the works straddling both LC and FWL borders

The Exiles joining the Empire don't know why it hasn't happened honestly they were never truly accepted in the IS only the Kells keeping them accepted I'm guessing with both Morgan and Phelan gone theyd have little to stay for AND with the Wolf Empire it's a state not an occupation zone - the crusaders finally accepting the IS as home

Skye going it alone I could see them taking Hesperus II as well maybe depends how disorganised the LC is after the Wolf bites

Davion Civil War 3 I think would go out like a whimper Julian's case winning over Calebs very quickly that boys problems will rise up and he'll fall also keeps the FS as a counter for the Capellans

A bigger Filtvelt I could see and understand though

DC civil war could go two ways if the Nova Cats/Emi Kurita faction win then you'll likely see some sort of fracture Dieron and Katana Tormark is a good place to start

If the Nova Cats went the other way (my favoured canon solution) and ran for the Clan Protectorate in FWL space then it really does change it up potentially every IS state could have a Clan faction on their borders could also potentially cause friction between Cats and Foxes as the Sea Foxes were the major partner in the Protectorate originally. With Irian as part of their holdings not such a minor force

FWL itself could survive probably should to provide a united counter against the Wolves but with the Regulans, Wolves, Capellans all pushing it could just die

Fortress Republic (needs to die) if it stayed in seclusion with nothing in or out that would be interesting

Dread Moores · « **Reply #4 on:** June 04, 2012, 04:28:47 PM »

Quote from: drakensis on June 04, 2012, 01:29:11 PM

I'm not familiar with the 3144 overlay you refer to and I've only read a few of the Dark Age books, so take this with a pinch of salt.

If you want a true Dark Age then an era of exhausted peace is probably not the way to get it. So have the Jihad finish with the weakened Clans and Successor States squabbling over the Blakist Protectorate and slid into even more wars (as much to keep the focus away from the worlds they're trying to reintegrate. So after a couple of decades of no-holds-barred fighting against the WoB (with HPG stations no longer neutral and therefore valid and desirable targets), they get another generation of raid and counter-raid that makes it almost impossible to rebuild from the damage and knocks out much of the development since 3025.

Of course if you want to keep closer to the canonical Dark Ages, never mind.

The overlay can be found attached to this post.

As for a real Dark Age, yeah, that would absolutely do it. It's not exactly what I'm looking at (as personally, I think BT works a lot better with more of the advanced tech in play), but definitely things for me to ponder. While I'm not hewing exactly to the Dark Ages, I do think it is a pretty good starting point. The fallout of that point in the timeline causes some really interesting possibilities to manifest.

Dread Moores · « **Reply #5 on:** June 04, 2012, 04:31:12 PM »

Quote from: Dragon Cat on June 04, 2012, 03:29:27 PM

If the Nova Cats went the other way (my favoured canon solution) and ran for the Clan Protectorate in FWL space then it really does change it up potentially every IS state could have a Clan faction on their borders could also potentially cause friction between Cats and Foxes as the Sea Foxes were the major partner in the Protectorate originally. With Irian as part of their holdings not such a minor force

I really need to dig up a map of the Clan Protectorate at some point. I've never been exactly clear on what worlds this sub-faction officially covers.

Knightmare · « **Reply #6 on:** June 04, 2012, 05:48:11 PM »

I think Ride the Chimera has a little map in the novel. There might be one other.

Dread Moores · « **Reply #7 on:** June 04, 2012, 06:18:45 PM »

And now for some of my own answers.

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1. The Word of Blake "worst-case scenarios" were true. Additionally, they fought united with a clear goal in mind from the beginning. The idea that they were going for the Clans was always a red herring. Ramifications of that?

Presuming double the canon ground forces, those two hundred regiments being completely filled out at the start of the Jihad, plus existing MD and fleet assets...well, if the Word fights intelligently, it's very bad for the other factions. If they planned and built for hitting the Sphere (rather than the Clans), there really isn't a better time to strike than 3067. This would likely lead to exactly that sort of lasting damage I had hoped for out of the canon Jihad. It's a solid starting point for modernizing some aspects of fluff, while still allowing for future growth. Gutting folks in this alt-Jihad allows for army sizes and compositions to be addressed as well as some of the production wackiness.

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2. Food for thought. The Wolf Empire in 3144 may possibly hold Solaris VII and Kalidasa.

The Wolf Empire is a fascinating look at post-Jihad production (I admit to drooling slightly over the idea of some upgraded FWL designs out of Kalidasa, Amity, and Keystone). If I allow for the Empire to pull of a less effective version of the Bear's move, they can actually be a proper threat in that region of space. If I hew closer to their canon move, well, they'll end up getting crushed pretty fast. Their non-combatants and support structure were completely scattered and stalled during the last few DA books.

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3. An independent Skye faction that HAS Hesperus. How would you want it to happen?

While I don't have a solid plan yet, I'm thinking that the nastier version of the Jihad will play a big factor here. Hesperus gets blasted a lot more heavily, with DefHes lines suffering nearly overwhelming damage. After the dust settles on the formation of the Republic, Hesperus has become an embarrassment for the first time in Lyran history. It's the site of a major morale loss, legendary defeat, and it has been absolutely battered. Defiance has facilities elsewhere with less damage and works on them first. Leading into the slowing arms race of the pre-Dark Age era, Hesperus keeps hitting the bottom of the list for the Lyrans. Once the Falcons work over Skye province as they do under Malvina, it could easily lead to the Free Skye movement cropping up again. This time they go against the Falcons, and settle for Jasek's Stormhammers (and other Lyran backed support) as the Republic has collapsed behind the Fortress. Give it some time, and Skye could be a fledgling nation retaking territory from the Jade Falcons while Malvina's philosophy is causing a minor implosion. I could see Skye getting the somewhat repaired Hesperus and independence, if the Lyrans get access to Hesperus output and Skye agrees to foot the repair bill.

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4. What exactly are the "core" Azami worlds? Does a map of them exist somewhere?

According to Maelwys, my favorite BT guru, a partial list includes at least Rukbat, Shitara, Dabih, Albalii, and Algedi.

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5. Skye and the Lyran Commonwealth as trade partners in a separate but semi-equal arrangement. Can it work?

See question 3. Tenuous to start, I believe, but I could see it working long term provided both still have the Falcons and Wolves to worry about.

Quote from: Knightmare on June 04, 2012, 05:48:11 PM

I think Ride the Chimera has a little map in the novel. There might be one other.

At least according to the map I found on Sarna, it appears that the Clan Protectorate is officially made up of Marik, Asellus Australis, Asellus Borealis, Angel II, Abadan, Avellaneda, and Oceana.

Dragon Cat · « **Reply #8 on:** June 04, 2012, 07:00:57 PM »

Quote from: Dread Moores on June 04, 2012, 04:28:47 PM

Quote from: drakensis on June 04, 2012, 01:29:11 PM
I'm not familiar with the 3144 overlay you refer to and I've only read a few of the Dark Age books, so take this with a pinch of salt.

If you want a true Dark Age then an era of exhausted peace is probably not the way to get it. So have the Jihad finish with the weakened Clans and Successor States squabbling over the Blakist Protectorate and slid into even more wars (as much to keep the focus away from the worlds they're trying to reintegrate. So after a couple of decades of no-holds-barred fighting against the WoB (with HPG stations no longer neutral and therefore valid and desirable targets), they get another generation of raid and counter-raid that makes it almost impossible to rebuild from the damage and knocks out much of the development since 3025.

Of course if you want to keep closer to the canonical Dark Ages, never mind.

The overlay can be found attached to this post.

As for a real Dark Age, yeah, that would absolutely do it. It's not exactly what I'm looking at (as personally, I think BT works a lot better with more of the advanced tech in play), but definitely things for me to ponder. While I'm not hewing exactly to the Dark Ages, I do think it is a pretty good starting point. The fallout of that point in the timeline causes some really interesting possibilities to manifest.

I never realized the Falcons had taken such a bite out of the Lyrans as well, if Skye went I think the Lyran nation would die more half their nation gone. Pretty most of their production too

Would love a cleaner version of the DA map

Quote from: Dread Moores on June 04, 2012, 04:31:12 PM

Quote from: Dragon Cat on June 04, 2012, 03:29:27 PM
If the Nova Cats went the other way (my favoured canon solution) and ran for the Clan Protectorate in FWL space then it really does change it up potentially every IS state could have a Clan faction on their borders could also potentially cause friction between Cats and Foxes as the Sea Foxes were the major partner in the Protectorate originally. With Irian as part of their holdings not such a minor force

I really need to dig up a map of the Clan Protectorate at some point. I've never been exactly clear on what worlds this sub-faction officially covers.

Oceana, Asellus Australis, Asellus Borealis, Angell II, Abadan, Avellaneda and the capital world of Marik was founded in 3138.

It was Marik not Irian not sure why I thought that one.. Still the Marik family's homeworld bit of a dump but quite a coup

Dread Moores · « **Reply #9 on:** June 04, 2012, 07:31:26 PM »

Quote from: Dragon Cat on June 04, 2012, 07:00:57 PM

I never realized the Falcons had taken such a bite out of the Lyrans as well, if Skye went I think the Lyran nation would die more half their nation gone. Pretty most of their production too

Would love a cleaner version of the DA map

Actually, Skye province doesn't have as much production as you might think (outside of Hesperus). What's scarier is that in 3144, the Falcons are sitting with 1 jump of Eutin, Tharkad, Loxley, Coventry, and Gibbs. That is a scary amount of Lyran production (outside of Hesperus) and the only remaining Lyran JumpShip producing yard (at least at the end of the Jihad). But, they still have Furillo, Loburg, and Kwangjong-ni that are nowhere near warzones. To be fair, losing Skye province doesn't really break the Lyrans back. Hesperus has a massive volume of production, but if it is allied hands, they can still get access. Additionally, keep in mind that Lyrans already lost Skye to the Republic. When the Falcons took most of Skye province, they were taking it from the Republic (who had it for about the last 50 years, give or take). The Lyrans survived without it. And yeah, Falcon territory is huge after Malvina's desant. Plus, I'm not looking for the Successor States to survive as they have existed for way too long. Macro-states are boring, personally. Micro-factions and moving folks about makes that same old map a whole lot more interesting.

The Wolves didn't help either. In theory, they take Solaris from the Lyrans. They get Kalidasa, Amity, and Keystone from the FWL. Keystone is a huge loss for the reborn FWL. Though the FWL does regain Irian, which helps.

There's a perfectly clear version of the 3130 map found at Oystein's page here, just not the 3144 map.

Dragon Cat · « **Reply #10 on:** June 04, 2012, 09:03:28 PM »

yeah have a copy of the DA map it's a full version of the post-DA novels map I was thinking about. I've read a good number of the DA novels was slowly beginning to get into it then Catalyst basically said - we're jumping the DA to start afresh ahead of that and wizkids stopped producing the books so gave up. Although the map looks interesting.

If you're wanting micro-states but set in a modern setting I'd start with the Jihad as you said originally. Set that as you're break point - have no recovering no peacetech under Stone.

Have the Inner Sphere Smashed to hell by the WoB. Kill the HPG network - no Stone to bring them together. The Bears and Cats were hell bent on taking on the WoB anyway so have them rampage through the Combine which could break the combine into pieces. The Bears could exhaust themselves in their attacks. The Cat's declare Irece independent maybe claiming Luthien or Pesht in the process - robs the Combine of central government.

The nuke attack against Tamar could break the Crusader Wolves, the Ice Hellion attack breaks up the Hell's Horses and Falcons.

At the same time Wolf (in-Exile) declare the ARDC reborn under their stewardship, Skye takes it upon themselves to declare independence - starts a break of the Lyrans

FWL does a nice job of imploding itself

Capellans easiest way is kill Sun-Tzu have Naomi Centrella-Liao and Kai Allard-Liao both declare they want it - Capellan Civil War - would likely smash them and the Magistracy.

Fed Suns kill Yvonne, Tarncred Sandoval and Jackson Davion during the Jihad. Have Hasek declare independance for the Capellan Suns, Draconis March won't be far behind. With Malagrotta and Filtvelt both already going during the Jihad the Sun's are pretty much smashed.

Then you just add some Diamond Shark holdings all over the place as their "trade" centres - 3 or four worlds here and there which splits it up a bit more.

Think I need a map just to follow all that lol

Dread Moores · « **Reply #11 on:** June 04, 2012, 09:35:09 PM »

While that sounds great, it's a lot more work than I'm willing to commit to a project that very likely two people will use (Maelwys and I) and maybe a dozen people will look at. I need to keep my BT time in check, lest it overwhelm my actual active gaming time.

The DA makes an easy jumping off point for a solo project, as it has several built in break away factions and a number of other key places that can be broken, if desired. Additionally, I like the Dark Age. And the Republic.

Setting aside the poor initial implementation, it's the first significant shake up with real ramifications that BT has had (setting aside the Jihad) in a very long time. And it most definitely wasn't Peacetech in the Dark Age era. A quick glance through Roosterboy's might fine Dark Age timeline reveals a whole lot of war going on.

Unless you're using Peacetech in reference to the military downsizing. Either way, both are drastically blown out of proportion, due to a lot of the community misinterpreting the early micro-factions for the level of military shown by the actual full-fledged factions.

And to be honest, I kind of like working from a framework that has some built-in limitations. It makes the project a little more interesting to have some challenges in making it internally consistent.

Recovery presents an interesting challenge, though. See, there's a need for recovery (otherwise, I might as well just make it the 3rd Succession War all over again). And I'll pass on that last note. I find that to be pretty much the worst period in BT history. But the recovery needs to be focused in the right areas. That dovetails more into my thoughts on messing about with the army size paradigm (slightly) as well as the production bottlenecks. I'll have to give all that some more thought before I commit it to text.

Edit: Funny side note. I just realized that somewhere between 3067 and 3130, the Wolves capture Arcturus, former capital of the Commonwealth. That made me sort of chuckle.

Dread Moores · « **Reply #12 on:** June 04, 2012, 09:48:58 PM »

I should note here that I'm not trying to shoot down every idea presented. I appreciate the feedback and thoughts, but I'm really just in the "talking out loud" stage of planning. The idea isn't solid in my own head, so it's easy for me to sound like I'm looking down my nose at differing ideas presented. Apologies up front if that impression is given. It's not intended.

Dragon Cat · « **Reply #13 on:** June 04, 2012, 10:17:56 PM »

Quote from: Dread Moores on June 04, 2012, 09:35:09 PM

The DA makes an easy jumping off point for a solo project, as it has several built in break away factions and a number of other key places that can be broken, if desired. Additionally, I like the Dark Age. And the Republic. Setting aside the poor initial implementation, it's the first significant shake up with real ramifications that BT has had (setting aside the Jihad) in a very long time. And it most definitely wasn't Peacetech in the Dark Age era. A quick glance through Roosterboy's might fine Dark Age timeline reveals a whole lot of war going on. Unless you're using Peacetech in reference to the military downsizing. Either way, both are drastically blown out of proportion, due to a lot of the community misinterpreting the early micro-factions for the level of military shown by the actual full-fledged factions.

I know I just don't like Stone lol, if the DA had been as it was initially shown then it would have been pretty horrible but as it went on and as Catalyst got their hands into it it's looking far more promising

Dread Moores · « **Reply #14 on:** June 05, 2012, 10:58:17 AM »

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6. What happens to the Falcons after the resolution (one way or the other) of Malvina's Mongol philosophy? How do they change as a result of it?

Looking at the overlay map, it seems the Horses grab a fair amount of territory of the old Wolf OZ, which could very likely lead to a conflict with the Falcons. That seems like a solid way to reduce the Falcon OZ, while getting Skye to regain its own territory. I could even use a modified version of Tukayyid (Skye trailing against the Horses) to have the Horses hammer the Malvina's gains in and around Skye, while the Horses agree to a certain line not to cross for a period of time. With Skye and the Horses hitting that "eastern" arm of the Falcon territory, they could easily be cut off. That leaves Malvina and her philosophy to wither on the vine, which also gives the Falcons time to decide on whether to incorporate the Mongol philosophy after it fails in a blaze of glory.

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7. The Wolf Empire, now fully removed from the reach of the Clans. Can you see the Exiles going home at some point? Does the Empire differ from the Clans in a drastic fashion?

The map makes the Wolf Empire pretty damn scary. Production wise (after further review), it appears they get Solaris, Kalidasa, Keystone, Amity, AND Stewart. If they can incorporate the Exiles and manage to transport some of their infrastructure...they make for a very interesting change in the power structure on that side of the Inner Sphere. With the Alaric's rise, I almost wonder if perhaps the Empire wouldn't end up starting to reject the Clan vision (and the cult of personality about the Kerensky brood). Sure, Ulric and Natasha were successful, but those would be figures far in the past of the Clan. They were also figures that led directly to the Clan fragmenting. Perhaps the actions of the Wards, the Kells, and Alaric are ringing truer to the Wolves now.

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8. If the MoC and Andurien have united in some permanent fashion, what's the balance of power like there?

Trinity Alliance Mk II, perhaps? I could see, with time, the possibility of an effective version of the Kapetyn agreement functioning between the CapCon, Andurien, and the MoC. Particularly if I do go with the 3200 or 3250 timeframe, as I initially planned.

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9. Does the reunited Free Worlds League make it? What does it take for them to survive, let alone prosper?

While they have been hammered and nearly split in half (like the Lyrans), I believe I'd still want them around. There's enough reason to think they could make it, and there are already enough micro-factions still remaining in that region of space.

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10. How does the interstellar stage change with the Capellans very likely being the most stable (and potentially, most powerful) Successor State?

If a Trinity Alliance Mk II goes through, I'd certainly wonder if the Capellans wouldn't spend more time focusing on their old foes the Davions. They've already hammered the Republic, and if there is piece with at least Andurien, they have secure borders (mostly) on one side.

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11. What happens if Fortress Republic remains unbroken and silent long after anybody expected it would? How do the power dynamics change if the Terran Corridor is now an impassable object in the Inner Sphere?

Well, I have to admit to liking the idea of Fortress Republic keeping things quiet. It's always nice to have an ace in the hole to show up as a surprise enemy at some later date. Additionally, that region right around Terra being inaccessible certainly forces the various nations to focus more on traditional front-based warfare. They can't cut through the Republic or gut it completely, so it leads to some nice, predictable warfare.

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Author Topic: Post Lapsum (AU Idea in Progress) (Read 7248 times)

Dread Moores

Post Lapsum (AU Idea in Progress)

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