OBT Forum
General BattleTech => Alternate Universe => Topic started by: Takiro on October 11, 2010, 06:45:47 PM
-
The year is 2864 and the Successor States meet on New Earth to discuss the possibilities of peace. Despite the discord and acrimony created by the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars the delegates somehow manage to reach a historic peace agreement. The New Earth Accords which are reviewed and ratified by the House Lords establish a new status quo throughout the InnerSphere.
Aside from token territorial concessions made to the Capellans in order to secure their agreement the Lords of the InnerSphere agree to renounce their claims to the Star Throne once and for all. Provisions governing the conduct of war which include an updated Ares Conventions are also laid down by this document. The most significant of these are safeguards for Jumpships which are now protected assets under the Accords.
Business leaders and merchants who were among the chief proponents of the treaty thrive in the new environment. A new age of interstellar commerce led by the Lyran Commonwealth and the Free Worlds League sweeps the InnerSphere. With the Star League officially dissolved never to be seen again each nation embraces its sovereignty and rebuilds.
So what happens? Is it a much different universe from the canon 3rd Succession War? The lack of a general war and the sudden drop in destruction would make ComStar unhappy I imagine. Would the Houses unite to deal with them and nationalize the HPG network or would ComStar try to manage the peace? What happens when the Clans arrive? The InnerSphere might be better off technically and economically but their warfare may be ritualized like the Clans while their militaries would be inexperienced in large scale warfare.
-
Interesting Very Interesting. For Comstar It would be a huge change especially for the fanatic Toyama. His wetware would seize up and since the Comguard had not be formed yet and Rom had just finished Operation Holy Shroud in 2843. His options might be limited it all depends on what can be done. Also if the Comguard is not formed and the Clans do arrive who would fight them? Lastly the Clans might have arrived earlier than 3050.
-
Why would they stop waging wars?
-
Well I think the results could be interesting.
But it all depends on how much infrastructure, scientific knowledge and military hardware is already destroyed and lost during the first and second succession wars.
(BTW, are there any canon references how much technological infrastructure and scientific knowledge was destroyed during each of the succession wars?)
If say 95% of all losses in the above mentioned fields occurred during the first and second succession wars, then I think that the rebuilding would start from roughly the same level as in the canon setting. The advantage would be that the rebuilding starts earlier but would occur in roughly the same fashion.
But...
If only two thirds of all economic, military and scientific losses occurrec during the first and second succession wars this would mean that the rebuilding not only starts earlier than in the canon setting, but also from a higher level.
This could have really drastic consequences.
Regarding ComStar I too think that they would not be pleased. But Operation Holy Shroud benefitted from the fact that the Successor states were at war against each other. I have my doubts if ComStar could be as successful against an Inner Sphere at peace.
Which makes me wonder if this would not prompt an even earlier founding of the ComGuards, since ComStar might feel that without the House Lords warring against each other Terra itself might become a target for an adventurous House Lord. Personally I doubt that ComStar would not field an army of its own(the organization is just too paranoid not to field a military force in my opinion).
-
A century and a half of industrial reconstruction in and of itself would be a massive game changer when the Clans returned, ritualised Areas Convention style Warfare or not. Look at the reunification war, the IS threw of the gloves nice and quick and used sheer numbers and industrial power to overwhelm the Periphery. With 150 years of tech recovery as well, the Clans would have a nasty time of it.
Additionally, I think ComStar would completly flip, but could do little really, with ROM young and no Com Guards, I think thier actions would be hard to determine. They would be seething, but could do little apart from trying to get states to breach the conventions. They might be asked to become arbiters of the fights and the ComGuards could form from this role as a peace keeping force, much like what happened with the Terran Hegemony.
The big winner and big looser would likly be the Lyrans. They would benifit most from lower level war and general re-industrialisation, but would suffer from a new war of movement and skill. Additionally, the Mariks could, if they kept it together, become the dominant power.
-
but would suffer from a new war of movement and skill.
This is assuming they can't adapt to changing conditions?
If they are the ones benefiting the most from re industrialisation, they are likely to get more units earlier than the others and impose their terms on how to fight wars.
-
True, but the recurrent theme of LCAF history is the mass of bumbeling metal, at least until the got the FIAT treatment from 3028-3050. Still, as a believer in the power of massed industry to swarm the other guys under, finesse is not such a nessesity.
-
But you can believe in heavy metal and mobility at the same time or use heavy metal to force your opponent to react as you want. 8)
-
True, but the Steiners seem to use the Soviet model when it comes to war.
-
True, but the Steiners seem to use the Soviet model when it comes to war.
Who won WWII? :P
-
Heavy Industry - Lots of it
-
Heavy Industry - Lots of it
See? ;D
-
Ah, but that only works when the other guy is bone-stupid.....
-
Mostly you'd simply see a renewal of the old Age of War - just Mark II this time round.
The game changer (at least regarding the Clans) would be the year of peace rather than the type of peace proper.
So say, this peace took place right after the 1st Succession War then it's very likely the Clans would be in a terrible position no matter when they finally decide to invade. Not only is additional infrastructure saved from the predations of war and time, but economically, the Successor States are less hostile. Comstar would likely maintain Terra & the HPG network, but be far less religious and militant. Toyoma's changes wouldn't take hold and his successors would have a hard time (if they opted to maintain the pseudo-religious trappings) recruiting manpower. Remember, Comstar recruiters preyed on the anxieties and realities of the Succession Wars. If things improve and total warfare ceases, Comstar's recruitment dissolves correspondingly. I'd put money on Comstar going completely corporate, but build a corporate model resembling Shadowrun's Aztechnology, i.e., plenty of skeletons in the closet and mighty good at public branding/propaganda.
Still, even if said peace took place after the Second Succession War, the Great Houses still benefit from another 150+ years of their own brand of ritualized warfare. Technology, commerce, everything the Third Succession War helped stagnate would benefit. Again, Comstar would suffer the worst if it maintained their canon model, which again, I doubt would happen. Within a certain period of time it's not a stretch to imagine another Second Star League forming much like it did after the Clan invasion - albeit this time without the need for or reason of a common enemy.
Why? Because if the Great Houses can sign a peace accord on their own without a common foe bearing down their neck, it's not implausible said Houses could also come to the same Second Star League agreement. If you're willing to deal for no apparent reason other than common sense, then you're probably likely to deal in the same fashion again.
You should also take into account time and generation. In 2864 there were probably still people (albeit advanced in age) who still remembered living in the Star League or during the waning years of Sphere-wide peace. If a peace occurred in 2864 there are still people alive who could call upon the actual memory of cooperation and its benefits. If their leaders were willing to play ball, so would they.
In 3058, no said generation exists. Cooperation without coercion (in the form of the Clans) was impossible. Those people would have 250 years of constant warfare, with successive younger average generations to correspond with the declining technology. (Take Terra for example. Even in 3078, Terran don't reach middle age until well past their 60s. Medical technology and health means Terran generations are further apart since women care bear children at a more advanced age. The same can't be said for a place like Philadelphia or Helm, where successive generations were born closer and closer to each other - say, 20 years apart rather than 60+.) If a college or technical school provides a form of institutional memory, what kind of cultural memory is passed from parent to child?
It's a rhetorical question of course, but highlights the idea that some of the ingrained stigmas of the Succession Wars may not be fully solidified just yet.
Again, operating under the assumption of the Alt-U you've created here, it is possible.
-
I will have to look at Aztech.
-
If Shadowrun has a megacorporation that could be considered a Sixth World Boogeyman, it'd be Aztechnology. Sure S-K is run by a Dragon, but compared to the dark, behind-closed-doors, hell-bent on world domination, but with a happy public face company - there is little worse than Aztechnology. Minus the blood magic, I'd expect a non-religious Comstar to be very similar in orientation and operation.
-
I know the name and their reputation as bad guys but so far I only looked at the Dragon corpo and some French/Scandinavian/Asian ones ;)
-
Check out the Corporate Download. It has everything you need to know about Aztechnology. (At least as much as you can gleam from a SR sourcebook - they're not very forthcoming with "hard" facts as you know. Guess it's part of their charm?...)
-
I read it and I don't think it would fit ComStar as they aren't focusing on anything like ComStar is doing.
Don't you think that going from a Network Corporation to a full conglomerate would be a bit too much?
-
Well we could be headed for an early Jihad as ComStar under Primus Kaprov is not likely to accept such developments. An event like the discovery of a meddling ROM either by a defector or getting caught in the act may be the catalyst for this peace. If you recall there is a diplomatic incident that occurs at these talks which well could have been ComStar's hand. Exposure could cause the Houses to stop their wars and examine ComStar.
Also I like the idea that Roweena Kurita somehow rises to become Coordinator of the Draconis Combine. Her progressive administration might be willing to work with a new cooperative matriarchy. The friendship of Elizabeth Steiner and Phillipa Marik would of course be the building block of such an agreement. Prince Michael Davion was disgraced by earlier peace proposals that he could also blame on ComStar. The weak and spineless Dainmar Liao might back such a united stance.
ComStar backed into a corner may lash out cutting off HPG communications and backing local dissidents in hopes of defeating this united front. However this would likely build hatred of ComStar. The Houses are in poor shape militarily but ComStar doesn't have much of a military itself. A conflict would be interesting but I think the Spheroids would ultimately prevail. How long this takes? Is Earth divided evenly between theme? What state are they left in? And do they start fighting again after their common enemy disappears?
-
Ah, I see what you're focusing on. I was referring more to how they operate, rather than what they produce. Aztechnology is a master of the public propaganda machine. They conduct flagrant naughtiness, (Yucatan, *cough*) but the general public remains blissfully unaware. Perhaps more than any other Megacorporation that's considered "evil" in Shadowrun - Aztechnology manages to do it without Joe Schmoe finding out.
So if we had to pick the archetype megacorporation for Comstar to emulate, (which they kinda already do) Aztechnology would probably be it. Aztechnology is also Shadowrun's largest producer of consumer goods, which if Comstar went more corporate and was smart, would also try to emulate. In the Shattered Dawn Universe, since Comstar doesn't own Terra (and if I were the Primus, I'd leverage profits from operating the HPG network into a more diversified manufacturing portfolio.) military production is a tough and extremely risky proposition. Seeing how military production would be out of the question - not only would it threaten the neutrality of Comstar proper, but also the Terran Republic by association, something the Republic wouldn't allow - building high Hegemony-quality consumer goods would be an extremely beneficial project to pursue.
For one, (assuming Comstar did manage to sell its neutrality to the other five Successor States AND distance itself far enough from the Republic to make the claim plausible) there is a good possibility that Comstar-owned and operated production sites (ostensibly built near their HPGs or clearly marked as Comstar owned) would be relatively safe from the predations of the Succession Wars. The first Successor State to inadvertently bomb one of their plants while invading the Republic would face the threat of an Interdiction. Heck, after a while they'd probably build them everyone.
Not only is Interdiction a great deterrent, but safely building consumer products also adds an additional bulwark against the general decline in technology. While canon Comstar may have wanted to watch the Inner Sphere fall back into the Stone Age so they could emerge and create an enlightened theocracy, they also owned Terra and all of her precious technological secrets. While SD's Comstar may also claim ownership of many of those same secrets, she lacks the industrial base and even the hard infrastructure to do anything with them.
No, by building high quality consumer products SD's Comstar can work in the exact opposite way as her canon counterpart and still achieve similar power. In this scenario, while the Successor Lords are bombing the hell out of each other's military and civilian industrial complexes, Comstar's civilian products would start to gain more and more of a monopoly and Sphere-wide stranglehold due to their relative sophistication and protected status. With the backing of the HPG network and her inherent "neutrality," Comstar can go and sell where others can not.
Surprisingly, the Republic would actually play a small and unintentional role in this development. By merely existing, Comstar will have the opportunity to purchase former Hegemony factories and civilian companies before the onslaught begins in earnest. Whereas canon Comstar only had a few years to muster the military strength to conquer and hold Terra, in Shattered Dawn, the Republican Army is doing that for them and throughout the former Terran Hegemony. With a little bit of breathing room thanks to the formation of the Republic, (and without having to entertain the thought of pursing an Operation Silver Shield) Comstar can devote those early resources to doing what it should be doing best - making money.
In the end, it'd be a weird Inner Sphere to live in circa 3025 with Star League-quality personal computers and jury-rigged BattleMechs, but the end result would still be the same with Comstar enjoying a public prestige and omni-present power far in excess to what it's physical capabilities should allow. Plus, the omni-presence of having most of your consumer products built by Comstar, in every household and with the information gathering capabilities that might entail are tantalizing. Comstar's spy apparatus would be more automated, but with their high level of protected technology in comparison to everyone else...the possibilities are endless. If they played their cards right and operated a little more like Aztechnology, they could broker all that information for quite a profit, while continuing to further their own nefarious plans...
-
ComStar backed into a corner may lash out cutting off HPG communications and backing local dissidents in hopes of defeating this united front. However this would likely build hatred of ComStar. The Houses are in poor shape militarily but ComStar doesn't have much of a military itself. A conflict would be interesting but I think the Spheroids would ultimately prevail. How long this takes? Is Earth divided evenly between theme? What state are they left in? And do they start fighting again after their common enemy disappears?
If Comstar was smart, it'd play ball and try to leverage itself into a position as benefit the situation. Any large organization like Comstar's is very much like an aggressive living organism. If the environment changes, it'll work hard to find a place to survive. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't, but it definitely doesn't sit idly by.
In this particular case, I don't think Comstar would do anything except facilitate. The risks, if caught meddling, are enormous - quite frankly, the end of the Order and their ownership of Terra. They'll want to maintain a positive public face and to ingratiate themselves into the new political order even more. Not only does it place them in a better position politically, but much like the Hegemony's Aggressive Peacemaking of the 26th century - do the same thing long enough and your reputation is secure. Canon Comstar forgot this lesson. Play the peacemaker long enough and no one will think otherwise.
Who cares what your real goals are - perception is reality my friend.
-
I see where you are going Knightmare and I agree on the PR part of AztechTechnologies.
And Takiro, Knightmare is right, this is a game far too dangerous for ComStar to play.
-
Yeah this What If is hard to make stand as ComStar is gonna do its best to make it disappear. They hold such an advantage over the Successor States at the end of the 2nd Succession War that one wonders why they didn't try to take over overtly.
On top of that it is hard to imagine any one event causing peace at this time.
-
Yeah this "What If" is hard to make stand as ComStar is gonna do its best to make it disappear.
Maybe, maybe not. Comstar's stance has everything to do with how they frame the peace process. Take the Clan invasion for example. Comstar could have just as easily gone straight to war with the technologically advanced invaders the moment they arrived in the Inner Sphere since the Clans challenged Comstar's very stranglehold on advanced technology just by existing. Instead, they framed the invasion to their advantage and courted the Clans until coming to the realization of the Clan's final goal: Terra. Then the invasion was framed in a whole new light. And by then, Comstar was also familiar with the Clans and realized a single Tukayyid was all that was necessary to stem the advance (as opposed to an all out invasion - like what the WoB planned to accomplish with the Shadow Divisions.)
Throughout Comstar's existence, the organization has shown (like any other organization) the propensity to react quickly and slowly at the most inopportune time. Take their reaction to the successes of the Federated and Lyran forces during the Fourth Succession War. How long did it take the Order to actively work to end the war with an Interdiction? Or, how quickly they worked to preemptively prepare for the next War (of 3039) via their dealings with the Dragon?
Point is, Comstar could be an active participant in said peace or an inactive observer until they figure their next course of action. Typically, when the Order is involved, then so is the long game.
They hold such an advantage over the Successor States at the end of the 2nd Succession War that one wonders why they didn't try to take over overtly.
For the same reason why Comstar couldn't take over the Inner Sphere during the long Third Succession War - they just didn't have the juice. But really, it's because Comstar's greatest strength - the Order's perceived neutrality - works against any possibility of quick overt action.
On top of that it is hard to imagine any one event causing peace at this time.
Well, that's the rub. I mean, it is possible. There really isn't a reason for a 2nd or 3rd Succession War other than to continue to ruin the Inner Sphere's industrial base so that BattleTech 2nd Ed. would be fun to play and have a sweet storyline.
-
For the same reason why Comstar couldn't take over the Inner Sphere during the long Third Succession War - they just didn't have the juice. But really, it's because Comstar's greatest strength - the Order's perceived neutrality - works against any possibility of quick overt action.
And the manpower.
-
But really, it's because Comstar's greatest strength - the Order's perceived neutrality - works against any possibility of quick overt action.
This.
While I can see C* establishing the Com Guards and Militia either overtly or secretly for the defense of Terra they would(in my view) be a solely defensive organization.
After all rampaging hordes of white C* BattleMechs would hardly improve the Order's reputation.
With overt action out of question C* might either accept the New Earth Accords or resort to covert operations in typical ROM-Style.
Ciao
Hessian
-
With overt action out of question C* might either accept the New Earth Accords or resort to covert operations in typical ROM-Style.
Or the Shadowrun style.
-
With overt action out of question C* might either accept the New Earth Accords or resort to covert operations in typical ROM-Style.
Or the Shadowrun style.
Boo-yah!
Way to hit it on the head Ice, Hess!
While I can see C* establishing the Com Guards and Militia either overtly or secretly for the defense of Terra they would(in my view) be a solely defensive organization.
Just like the canon release of the ComGuards - they were deployed piecemeal (lance or company-sized) across the Inner Sphere - misleading observers as to their actual size and scope. While their deployment wouldn't go unnoticed by the Great Houses, it's all about the PR spin.
After all rampaging hordes of white C* BattleMechs would hardly improve the Order's reputation.
Operation Scorpion certainly proved that.