OBT Forum
General BattleTech => Alternate Universe => Topic started by: Blacknova on January 01, 2012, 08:39:38 PM
-
I wonder what might have happened in 2338, if the Hegemony High Council had appointed Hegemony Congressman Graham Nellas as the 2nd Director General, instead of Michael Cameron, following McKennas death?
-
Well dare I say no Cameron dynasty for better or worst and since the how neo feudal system is their creation it could be a far different universe.
-
Also No Star League might have been formed
-
The age of war could very well have carried on but no reunification war.
-
You could really go anywhere with this scenario as the Camerons did much to make the universe BattleTech. I mean their Hegemony drove the scientific development of the Human Sphere from the BattleMech to the HPG, helped Steiner and some of the other Houses stay in power, created the Ares Conventions and the Star League, started the Reunification War, and on and on. House Nellas or more likely more democratically elected heads of state could drastically change the universe to unrecognizable proportions.
-
Do we have any kind of indication as to the potential leadership style of Nellas? Without any of that, it's pretty much just create your own AU. I'm also not so convinced that the Hegemony wouldn't have founded fairly similarly, as I tend to think a lot of the drive for that sort of advancement was Terran motivated, not Cameron motivated.
-
Another thought, without House Cameron creating the Star League you don't get the universal spread of the common mech designs, instead each nation would persue there own equipment programs.
-
Thanks for the comments, it is not something I am looking at creating, just a random thought that popped into my head. I thought: "What major what if scenarios have not been looked at in BT?
-
You mean other than what if there were no battlemechs? ;D
Master Arminas
-
If you're looking for cleft points, here are a few:
What if Michael Steiner had accepted the verdict condemning Duke Reynolds in 2467? House Reynolds would probably not have supported Michael's nephew Robert on Tamar in 2505, which would have left completely different dynasties ruling on Tamar, Skye and Tharkad.
What if Alexander Davion died in his famous duel with Dmitri Rostov on Robinson in 2540? House Davion wouldn't have been eradicated necessarily, but with only three children aged 15, 12 and 10, their fortunes would have taken a great decline and House Rostov might have ruled the Federated Suns or formed their own realm.
What if, in 2330, Shiro Kurita had not invaded Rasalhague but instead turned the DCMS loose upon Tamar and Skye? The idea of uniting those two realms with Donegal already existed, would it have been accelerated in the face of the Draconis Combine or would the weak leadership of that era have failed to hold together?
What if Reynard Davion had been commanding the Federated Suns army on Capella in 2367? Would he have died there, bringing his erratic son Etien to the throne earlier and magnifying the damage he caused to the Davion reputation? Or would Reynard have somehow succeeded in defeating Franco Liao's strategy, causing the newborn Capellan Confederation to collapse?
What if Detlev Marik gave up on the idea of a Free Worlds League in 2269 and instead focused on establishing economic links with the Skye region to counter the mercentile power of Regulus? Might a McQuiston-Marik dynasty have come to dominate that region of the Inner Sphere?
-
Good stuff drakensis. I'd like to comment on your first point in particular.
What if Michael Steiner had accepted the verdict condemning Duke Reynolds in 2467? House Reynolds would probably not have supported Michael's nephew Robert on Tamar in 2505, which would have left completely different dynasties ruling on Tamar, Skye and Tharkad.
Why because this is the incident where a Terran diplomatic team "saves" House Steiner by showing up in the middle of a battle just in time to mediate the crisis. While negotiations were unfruitful that was not there point if you look at the HS SB as it implies very close Cameron support. They delayed the outcome so House Reynolds could come to the rescue thus without the Camerons as Blacknova originally proposed no House Steiner.
-
Do we have any kind of indication as to the potential leadership style of Nellas? Without any of that, it's pretty much just create your own AU.
I do agree and I was curious about that while reading the initial question.
-
From the Star League Sourcebook, page 20.
Expanding their search to include more distant relations of the late Director-General, the Councillors eventually settled on two candidates. Graham Nellas, a nephew of James McKenna, represented the Pacific Northwest States of North America in the Terran Congress. Forty-live years old, he had served in the HAF as a Marine officer. winning a medal of valour for his actions in the conquest of Addicks. The handsome Graham was politically conservative and an excellent orator.
Michael Cameron, a third cousin to McKenna, was the other candidate, though some Councillors believed he was less qualified than Senator Graham Nellas…
As the day for a decision drew nearer, the Councillors remained split over whom to recommend as the next Director-General, and the debate became more heated and tense. On the day before the announcement must be made, the Councillors were still hanging fire. Because of their inability to choose, they decided to submit the names of Graham Nellas and Michael Cameron to the people for consideration. Privately, many Councillors expected the public to choose the more personable Graham Nellas, while others hoped that they would appreciate Michael Cameron's genius, despite his unassuming demeanour.
In place of a media blitz, the public witnessed frequent debates between Michael Cameron and Graham Nellas. Before the holocameras as well as in the various print media in the public debates, Graham Nellas came across as suave and self-assured, but perhaps too glib in expressing himself. Nellas also had actual experience in the Terran Congress, a fact he mentioned as often as possible. The public nevertheless voted for the serious and brilliant Michael Cameron by a large margin, reassured by his air of quiet competence. Incredible as was this upset, a total of three official recounts requested by the High Councillors turned up no evidence of vote tampering or changes in the results.
-
The neo-feudal system could be the biggest casualty if Nellas rises to power. Think of it no Houses? Without your familiar dynasty supported by an entrenched nobility you might get smaller regional nations perhaps with more democratic institutions.
-
Like Knightmare's Age of Chaos, just without the chaos?
-
Yup trade in your 5 or 6 Houses for 20 or so states but that isn't all. The Cameron society that gave us Neo-Feudal Lords, Mechwarriors, their honor code, and a limited warfare setting is likely a goner. The universe you get maybe far more "realistic" than the "fantastic" BattleTech we all love.
-
To me, he looks like a Roman Senator.
-
Yup trade in your 5 or 6 Houses for 20 or so states but that isn't all. The Cameron society that gave us Neo-Feudal Lords, Mechwarriors, their honor code, and a limited warfare setting is likely a goner. The universe you get maybe far more "realistic" than the "fantastic" BattleTech we all love.
The large states had formed in response to James McKenna's campaigns, not the rise of the Camerons, so I think the 10 states would have still formed in similar ways.
-
Yup trade in your 5 or 6 Houses for 20 or so states but that isn't all. The Cameron society that gave us Neo-Feudal Lords, Mechwarriors, their honor code, and a limited warfare setting is likely a goner. The universe you get maybe far more "realistic" than the "fantastic" BattleTech we all love.
The large states had formed in response to James McKenna's campaigns, not the rise of the Camerons, so I think the 10 states would have still formed in similar ways.
Of the ten large states in the 26th century, only the Capellan Confederation, Outworlds Alliance and Magistracy of Canopus were created after the proposed election. Given that the Capellan Confederation formed in response to being caught between the expansionist FWL and FS (particularly the latter) it's likely that the Capellans will unite more or less per canon although if House Nellas is more aggressive than House Cameron it's possible that the Ducy of Liao might have been conquered by the Terran Hegemony, which would throw quite a wrench into that chain of events.
The OWA and MoC would almost certainly be butterflied depending on the Nellas actions through the Age of War although it's entirely plausible that similar states might emerge.
One chain of events is:-
The Nellas succeed in annexing the Duchy of Liao; leading to Franco Liao not attending the St Andre Conference; leading to the Capellan Confederation; leading to Reynard Davion successfully seizing control of Capella and by extension the Capellan Commonality. A scramble by the TH, FWL and FS to carve up the Capellan sector could readily kick off the Age of War thirty years earlier.
Other consequences of this would be that it might well avert the first clash between the Taurians and the Federated Suns (which was inadvertantly sparked by the Capellan Confederation) and avert the entire Magistracy of Canopus since the campaigns that disenchanted Kossandra Centrella would take place under different leadership. Finally, with the Terrans looking 'south' that might grant more freedom of action to the Lyrans and Draconians. There's no knowing what that could cause.
-
An interesting scenario.
-
Rereading the SLSB, the description of Nellas's character always struck as the post-Alliance's version of a professional politician. Keep in mind the definition of a "professional politician" by Hegemony standards is nothing compared to that in the Alliance or even before. So Nellas was probably no fiend by our measure, but certainly a fellow who knew how to "play the game."
I always likened this election to Nixon/Kennedy. With Nixon actually winning.
Regardless, if Nellas had been elected (and I like drakenis's outline) the future of the Hegemony's scientific lead might have been fundamentally different. With Nellas at the helm a closer parity between the Inner Sphere's states is likely to occur. I still believe the Hegemony would have an edge (population for one, and infrastructure - i.e. Terra, another), but certainly not the 30-50 gap.
-
Why would House Nellas lead to a less stronger/advanced Terran Hegemony?
-
Why would House Nellas lead to a less stronger/advanced Terran Hegemony?
Maybe a less powerful, centralized government leads to it?
On the exact oposite note why would it lead to a strong/more advanced one? I don't know which one it would be just wondering people's justifications.
-
Why would House Nellas lead to a less stronger/advanced Terran Hegemony?
Well for one, Michael emphasized the sciences. With Nells we've been given no such indicator. But knowing the relative type of politician he was and some base history we can infer he wouldn't have been as gung-ho on science and tech as Cameron.
That would certainly help close the gap.
-
I get the sense that Nellas was much more "conservative" than Cameron. Perhaps he may have followed McKenna's Campaigns of Persuasion with his own adventures to expand Hegemony authority. Not to the extent of the early McKenna regime but more of a carrot and stick join us approach that incorporated diplomacy as well as military conquest to this endeavor.
-
I get the sense that Nellas was much more "conservative" than Cameron. Perhaps he may have followed McKenna's Campaigns of Persuasion with his own adventures to expand Hegemony authority. Not to the extent of the early McKenna regime but more of a carrot and stick join us approach that incorporated diplomacy as well as military conquest to this endeavor.
Seeing he was more "normal" than the bookish Cameron, insofar as his background, I'd think he'd have been a fairly "standard" leader. Probably expand where possible, deal where necessary, etc. What I don't see is Nellas giving the Hegemony a specific focus like Cameron, or introducing specialty changes like nobility, etc.
I see someone like Nellas working more along the political principles of McKenna, but that's just me.
-
If he had worked along the political lines of McKenna, I think the Star League would have been a lot more interesting than the whitewashed version the Camerons cranked out in the initial matter. (To be fair, later material has worked hard to show how shallow that perceptions is, which is a good thing). McKenna wasn't exactly the nicest fellow.
-
Honestly, under Nellas (and presumably a normal string of non-related rulers) I doubt the Star League would have formed. Integral to the formation of the League came from what Ian learned from his mother and the political situation she engineered for the Hegemony. Without a Deborah Cameron and her aggressive peacemaking, I highly doubt the idea, let alone the general groundwork for a "Star League" could have formed.
That said, a 26th century Hegemony could well be looking to aggressively expand rather than seek a diplomatic solution to its growing economic and resource problem.
-
Succession Wars but without any Succession 8)
-
Yeah, and the CapCon would probably get clobbered by the Terrans, FedSuns and FWL.
-
Succession Wars but without any Succession
You mean a longer Age of War or Age of War II (after a suitable period of recovery...say around the 2550s)
-
Succession Wars but without any Succession
You mean a longer Age of War or Age of War II (after a suitable period of recovery...say around the 2550s)
Sounds about right.
-
For a really odd ball, but plausible ~ if in only the sense of politics making strange bedfellows ~ the Terran Hegemony under a string of democratically elected Rulers could actually forge an alliance with Taurian's.
Specifically a military alliance. Heavily Naval in form as well.
The prime driver for this would the FedSuns, and as a side matter the Cappies. From the TH perspective the TC is in a number of ways an ideal ally against the FedSuns.
The TC is nowhere near the TH, yet both states border the FS.
Apart from having the second highest GDP per person, the TC is also a literate, technically skilled state. Selective aid via second hand Military Technology, can be implemented out of the TC's own budget without threatening TH technological dominance.
Not to mention the TC is perhaps the only Naval force to match the TH in skill.
Forcing the FS to deal with two distinct Naval threats at the complete opposite ends of its borders at the same time, is an ideal state of affairs for both the TH, & TC Naval operations.
One that leads the FS Navy to either disperse to deal with the two separate threats and face defeat in detail, or bottle up the fleet having them protect core systems of FS and unable to give either the TH or TC Navy`s battle.
This of course relies on the both the TC and TH swallowing their prides for Military Advantages.
On that note here`s an AU thought I had @ work.
Ian Cameron early on his process of forming the Star League, perhaps even before he becomes Director General, meets the Protector of the TC and oddly enough strikes up a friendship.
In attempt to draw the TC into his vision of humanity united, Ian is actually forced to address the core concerns aka economic / political / military needs of the TC, & perhaps even more importantly address and expand the difficulties in pushing forward Colonization of new systems.
Like oh say FTL communications, and sharing advancements in Terraforming and other critical bits of infrastructure. Or extensive military aid in further the TC's Navy.
Not to mention the free and open trade with other states, which is a very good thing for TC Industrial concerns at this point in time.
Whatever the incentive, from the 3rd Andurien War onward, Ian Cameron aided by Michael Calderon's suddenly even more deadly navy (Hello Battleships!), box the FedSun's into either accepting entry into the Star League from a somewhat weak position or accepting entry into the Star League after it's Navy gets it's ass-whooped by the TC.
A few friendly visits by Taurian Battleship squadrons leads the OWA Alliance and MoC to a very reluctant entry into the Star League. Without the TC a war of resistance is even more futile.
So we get a Star League overrun by bandits, mercs, and masses of unemployment in InnerSphere states. The Star League Army isn't a vastly admired and respected fighting force forged out of bloody war, but constant bandit raiding. Severe economic disruptions occur as Tariffs get removed, trade opens up and competition gets real nasty.
The only two states who really came out on top of the deal are the TH and TC, while several other states got the short end of the stick.
-
Interestingly, if tweaked enough you'll have the Federated Suns as the belligerent nation and the Concordat sitting pretty. Honestly though, if you could somehow win the TC over, the Magistracy and Alliance would easily follow. Your toughest competitors would be the Federated Suns and the Lyran Commonwealth...with the Lyrans overtly concerned with their economy. If the Hegemony was wise enough to turn the competition along the same lines as you've suggested with the Concordat, you'd have a fairly strong block between the LC, TH, TC and FWL.
The Capellans would join for fear of being smushed between the FWL, TC and TH, while the DC might hop on board if the prospect of invading the FS was likely. Cripes, you could have a Reunification War in the Federated Suns rather than the Concordat, with the Suns replacing the stubborn Cordies.
That might make for an interesting turn of events.
The war could certainly last 20 years. The AFFS is known for being a tough SOB when its back is against the wall.
Good ideas Fitz.
-
That is quite an awesome idea actually, I approve!! ;D (please disregard the Taurian fanboy that I am)
-
You mean a longer Age of War or Age of War II (after a suitable period of recovery...say around the 2550s)
Yes but I thought more of the "I want to hold the centre of the Universe" aspect.
And a TC/TH alliance, 8)
-
Let's take that back a bit.
Between 2418 and 2422 the Taurian Concordat fought it's first major war against another state: the Rim War against the Capellan Confederation. The war was notable in that the Ares Conventions, still a relatively new innovation, were not applied. It's not implausible that the Terran Hegemony might have acted as a mediator, putting the newly elected Richard Cameron into contact with the then young Amanda Calderon.
A decade later, Richard clashed with the Federated Suns over the jointly-administered world of Cartago, ultimately beating off an AFFS invasion and invading Kentares in turn. It would be perfectly natural under those circumstances for him to look for allies and if he is on good terms with the Taurians, they're well placed to posture along their border and deter the Capellan March from supporting the Terran March. Once BattleMechs begin proliferating in the mid25th century, it's hardly impossible that the Taurians might be able to draw on Terran support - in canon they had battlemech technology earlier than the Combine.
Given that the Camerons had couple of rather unpopular leaders at the time, the Taurians might even have been able to lure the disenchanted to their own worlds, strengthening themselves. By the late 25th century the Terran Hegemony was in trouble - relations with the FWL were going downhill and they still hadn't found a strong Director General. What they did have was excellent relations with the Rim Worlds Republic, where House Amaris was newly established. Add in the Taurians and those two states become excellent ways to draw off pressure from other states against the the Hegemony, so long as they are given support.
Then throw in Deborah Cameron's 'Aggressive Peacemaking'. It's not impossible that with a stronger position, some kind of pre-Star League could have followed from the Second Andurien War - Mica Liao was in a poor bargaining position and could have been led towards that rather than face the hefty indemnity that she paid in canon and Albert Marik was already Captain-General. If the Taurians and Rim Worlders were more inclined to see the Terrans as allies, this would have been a formidable five-nations bloc. The Draconis Combine was still recovering from the ouster of the Von Rohrs and the Davions were still waging a three-sided civil war, so only the Lyran Commonwealth was really in a strong position - the Canopians barely exist, the United Hindu Collective is tiny and the Outworlds Alliance is... the Outworlds Alliance, 'nuf said.
One scenario here would be for the Davion Civil War to spark conflict: the advantages to any of the three (later four) claimants of joining the Star League are obvious. If Cassandra Varnay or Dimitri Rostov elects to sign up with the Star League when the Ares Conventions have already been effectively discarded in the Civil War then matters will get very nasty: Alexander pretty much had Laura Davion on the ropes but it's hard to see him compromising when faced with Star League support for either of the others. While Siriwan Kurita would probably be too canny to pick sides immediately, I could see her supporting the AFFS under the table since doing so draws efforts away from menacing her. Craig Steiner could go in either direction but the prospect of the SLDF cutting its teeth against a Davion-Kurita military alliance isn't all that far-fetched.
-
I've created a monster...
-
I've created a monster...
Yeah...
Kinda neet to watch though :)
-
Mighty interesting drakensis.
I think the real power player, as you mentioned it, would be the Lyrans. Economic incentives bring them into the fold. The earlier the incentive package, perhaps they can be swayed while the DCMS is in recovery mode. I guess it could depend on how far the Terrans are willing to go to woo the Commonwealth at the expense of the DC and FedSuns later. Once you have the Lyrans in your back pocket, I don't expect the DC to be too far behind if the FedSuns Civil War looks like a losing proposition.
Dunno, but mighty interesting.
-
Then throw in Deborah Cameron's 'Aggressive Peacemaking'. It's not impossible that with a stronger position, some kind of pre-Star League could have followed from the Second Andurien War - Mica Liao was in a poor bargaining position and could have been led towards that rather than face the hefty indemnity that she paid in canon and Albert Marik was already Captain-General. If the Taurians and Rim Worlders were more inclined to see the Terrans as allies, this would have been a formidable five-nations bloc. The Draconis Combine was still recovering from the ouster of the Von Rohrs and the Davions were still waging a three-sided civil war, so only the Lyran Commonwealth was really in a strong position - the Canopians barely exist, the United Hindu Collective is tiny and the Outworlds Alliance is... the Outworlds Alliance, 'nuf said.
You also have to consider the military changes this would cause - by traditionally forming closer ties with the outlying nations instead of the immediate neighbours, the HAF would not feel so threatened by the diplomats. This might butterfly away the more radical military cabals and there's no Henry Green around to take up arms against the Director-General.
With Joseph "not the brightest of Deborah's children" Cameron in power, the whole formation process might take decades instead of years, which might prevent a lot of the economic trouble the "fast" League faced. Ian Cameron could still follow his dreams of a united humanity, just he stays in his role as ambassador, far enough away from the real power.
If Cassandra Varnay or Dimitri Rostov elects to sign up with the Star League when the Ares Conventions have already been effectively discarded in the Civil War then matters will get very nasty:
Just a nitpick: the Conventions deliberatly do not apply to civil wars.
-
If Cassandra Varnay or Dimitri Rostov elects to sign up with the Star League when the Ares Conventions have already been effectively discarded in the Civil War then matters will get very nasty:
Just a nitpick: the Conventions deliberatly do not apply to civil wars.
The use of the word 'deliberate' in reference to the Ares Conventions is a bit counter-intuitive. More like it was one of the gaping holes left because the people writing it believed pixies would make everything better.
-
I just love how these threads evolve. We have gone from discussing an elcetion result to the intracicies of the Areas conventions as applied to a Civil War.
-
If Cassandra Varnay or Dimitri Rostov elects to sign up with the Star League when the Ares Conventions have already been effectively discarded in the Civil War then matters will get very nasty:
Just a nitpick: the Conventions deliberatly do not apply to civil wars.
The use of the word 'deliberate' in reference to the Ares Conventions is a bit counter-intuitive. More like it was one of the gaping holes left because the people writing it believed pixies would make everything better.
Considering that 99% of the Ares Conventions are made up by extensive definitions of every aspect of warfare simply because none of the signatories trusted the others not to take advantage of any possible loopholes, I have a hard time believing that. Granted, I could be wrong (as pirates as a by-product of an oversight prove), but it seems likely to me that a treaty which was supposed to reduce inter-state violence was never considered to apply for intra-state violence.
-
I'm going to agree with Dirk here.
The Ares Conventions were signed by nation-parties, governing aggressive contact between each other. The Conventions says nothing about the internal affairs of said states. (Probably deliberate in the same token as the later Star League Accords.) Interference in internal matters is one door I find any attempt to open highly unlikely.
As such, I'm fairly certain, like most Civil Wars, was extremely bloody and persecuted relentlessly as the situation demanded...civilians be damned.
-
Arrrr...Zombies. Run.
I'm sad this thread just died. It was really moving.
-
It is dead, like the Nellas Families claim to the throne.
-
It is dead, like the Nellas Families claim to the throne.
Ouch. Almost Blakist of you. I like.
-
Go wash your mouth out toastie!
-
Go wash your mouth out toastie!
I can see darkness in you. Stop fighting the dark side.
-
And now this is back up and shambling along like the zombie it now is :)
-
Stop hogging all the crazy!