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BobTheZombie

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Evolution
« on: March 24, 2014, 10:51:10 PM »

This might be a bad idea, but what do you people think about the topic of evolution? Do you support it or object to it?
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Blacknova

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2014, 11:38:29 PM »

Seriously?  Please go here, http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evolution if you have any doubts.  It is a good place to start and links to many other sources.

The book, The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution would be the best first stop for those who think evolution is a hoax.  Seriously, before waxing lyrical here, go read it and gain an understanding of one of the fundamental aspects of the natural world.

If people object to it, which is like objecting to gravity, [hey it does not care, its real whether you think it is or not], please see this article: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Creation_%22science%22.

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2014, 07:55:59 AM »

There is one, huge problem evolution does not tackle. Evolution seems to occur simultaneously, across geographical boundaries and without common conditions guiding it. This, to me, is highly improbable. I'll explain.


In order for a group of "apes" to become humans, the "apes" must give birth to a population of children incapable of reproducing with their parents' genus. They have a different set of chromosome and are now incompatible. This is the same, observable condition as modern man attempting to breed with his closest, simian ancestor. It is a required step in the creation of an entirely new genus, as opposed to a branch of species which may/may not be capable of inter-species breeding.This is an incredibly rare occurrence (and has never been observed once, in recorded history), but would need to happen for macro-evolution to hold true.

Not only does this rare and strange occurrence need to happen once, it must happen simultaneously within a colony. Several females in a population of apes must give birth to a new genus at exactly the same period of time (within a single generation), else the new creature has no mate with which to breed. It would live out its life, never be capable of offspring and die out. So it needs enough partners with the same genus and species to continue existing. This must also occur for macro-evolution to work, since the new species would die out at the end of its own lifetime.

As we all know, genetic diversity plays a part in how well a species can breed. Too much in-breeding causes genetic defect until a species is simply incapable of producing viable offspring. This now means that this rare occurrence, spread across many different females within a group, must now travel OUTSIDE of the group, geographically. A separate group of "apes" must give birth to modern humans (or at least homo-erectus) at the exact same time as the first group.

Now how does the second group experience the same catalyst for a chromosomal change at exactly the same time as the first group? What outside stimuli would need to be present and what COULD be present over such a distance? This would be akin to a baby suddenly being born with three eyes, then realizing the entire hospital has three-eyed babies. THEN realizing the hospital 25 miles away all have three-eyed babies as well.

To me, that is a HUGE jump in logic.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 08:02:18 AM by TigerShark »
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BobTheZombie

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2014, 07:57:12 AM »

MODERATOR'S NOTE
Honestly, this thread has every potential to get out of control, so I'll be watching this one like a hawk.

That's why I started with "This might be a bad idea". :)

I thought it would be interesting to see BT fans' perspectives on this topic. I'm not trying to convert anyone to either side, just wondering what people's opinions are. I'll elaborate/respond more later today (running out of time at the moment).
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BobTheZombie

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2014, 09:58:14 AM »

There is one, huge problem evolution does not tackle. Evolution seems to occur simultaneously, across geographical boundaries and without common conditions guiding it. This, to me, is highly improbable. I'll explain.


In order for a group of "apes" to become humans, the "apes" must give birth to a population of children incapable of reproducing with their parents' genus. They have a different set of chromosome and are now incompatible. This is the same, observable condition as modern man attempting to breed with his closest, simian ancestor. It is a required step in the creation of an entirely new genus, as opposed to a branch of species which may/may not be capable of inter-species breeding.This is an incredibly rare occurrence (and has never been observed once, in recorded history), but would need to happen for macro-evolution to hold true.

Not only does this rare and strange occurrence need to happen once, it must happen simultaneously within a colony. Several females in a population of apes must give birth to a new genus at exactly the same period of time (within a single generation), else the new creature has no mate with which to breed. It would live out its life, never be capable of offspring and die out. So it needs enough partners with the same genus and species to continue existing. This must also occur for macro-evolution to work, since the new species would die out at the end of its own lifetime.

As we all know, genetic diversity plays a part in how well a species can breed. Too much in-breeding causes genetic defect until a species is simply incapable of producing viable offspring. This now means that this rare occurrence, spread across many different females within a group, must now travel OUTSIDE of the group, geographically. A separate group of "apes" must give birth to modern humans (or at least homo-erectus) at the exact same time as the first group.

Now how does the second group experience the same catalyst for a chromosomal change at exactly the same time as the first group? What outside stimuli would need to be present and what COULD be present over such a distance? This would be akin to a baby suddenly being born with three eyes, then realizing the entire hospital has three-eyed babies. THEN realizing the hospital 25 miles away all have three-eyed babies as well.

To me, that is a HUGE jump in logic.

Where exactly does this occur? If you're referring to the fossil record (one species in this level, a different one in the next), then your reasoning somewhat makes sense. The question becomes where you draw the line for species/genus/family (or creationist "kinds"). That I think is the problem; we need to fully understand how all these animals are really related and stop using an outdated system.
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Blacknova

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2014, 03:19:10 PM »

Tiger shark, you are seeing change in species as a sudden huge jump, not a gradual process. Lets say to get to species B from species A you need to change 50 genes. This can't happen all at once, as each requires a random mutation that will have beneficial effects for the individual.

You might get 1 or 2 in a generation, but likely far fewer. Each change is not enough to seperate one generation from the next is not enough prevent breeding between generation close to each other. However, 50 generations down the track you have a very different species.

The fossil record does not contain every generation, so we see snap shots along the line with each new fossil filling in the line some more.

Think of it like language. Though you have few different new words than your folks generation you can still communicate. Go back 50 generation and you would have little chance of understanding much of what was said. If you then followed a different line of descent forward down another language development path, you might arrive at a different modern language, one directly defended from the same starting point, but different to modern English.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2014, 04:01:41 PM »

I didn't think Tigershark assumed that they are huge jumps, though the use of "ape" and "human" could easily cause such confusion. No offense Blacknova, but I don't think that you fully answered to his claims.

Back to your original post about RationalWiki, I have read some of their stuff and find it predictable, if not confrontational. Wikipedia itself is only slightly more neutral on the subject, and certainly tries pushing their claims of neutrality to cover up bias. I've read so much on both sides of the issue that I can basically recite all of each side's most often used points/claim, but I would have to say that tigershark's wasn't one of those overused ones. I think that the way he approached it was quite indirect but still makes sense.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2014, 04:37:53 PM »

The problem is that there aren't enough samples of the new genus for continual breeding. And by breeding, I am specifically referring to paired matching which enhances a desired trait. The sample member of the new genus would have to continue breeding with a "less-advanced" member of the family. Evolution would continually regress since these traits would be bred out over generations unless, for some unknown and unproven reason, people continued spontaneously producing members of the new genus.

For example:

10 people are in a group, divided into pairs. One of the people in the group is blonde. Each pair of people create 3 children, meaning 21 members of the population do not have the blonde trait, while 4 do. But since the trait is recessive, it is far less likely to show up with each passing generation. The admixture will dilute until the blonde feature is no longer visible. Evolution only works if two brunettes can spontaneously create a blonde, by way of some unknown, outside catalyst.

Same goes for this proto-human. I'm wondering how these new genus or species spontaneously create themselves. What is the specific catalyst leading to the change in number and type of chromosomes and how does it affect an entire population, simultaneously?
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Blacknova

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2014, 05:53:39 PM »

I was typing on a phone a 4 in the morning with a lunatic 2 year old on the loose, so apologies for not getting completely across the answer.

Like I stated initially, and I mean this sincerely, get the eBook for The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution.  It is a very clear and easy to read explanation of all your questions and others.  The examples used are things that you could go out and measure for yourself, which is why it is such an excellent introduction to the subject.

Once you have devoured that, the answers will be as clear as day. However, I'll try again for you now that I have some quiet.

Your major issue is that your assuming the child, via a single mutation in a single gene [or it seems many genes by your assumption that child is a new species or genus] is suddenly a new species, it just does not work that way.  Look up some of the recent news articles on the rise of blue eyes over the last 6000 years.  We blue eyed all descended from one individual on the Black Sea who had a mutation on one of the eye color expressing genes.  By no means are blue eyed folks a different species, however, continue with such small changes over hundreds of thousands, or millions of years and you get something new.

Quote
Evolution only works if two brunettes can spontaneously create a blonde, by way of some unknown, outside catalyst.

Evolution works via a KNOWN internal catalyst that does create spontaneous changes.  It is called Random Mutation.  There is no rhyme or rule to it, it just happens and is measurable across species.  You are seeking for an invisible hand guiding the process and it is not there.  Once you let that preconception go, evolution becomes far easier to understand.

Quote
In order for a group of "apes" to become humans, the "apes" must give birth to a population of children incapable of reproducing with their parents' genus. They have a different set of chromosome and are now incompatible. This is the same, observable condition as modern man attempting to breed with his closest, simian ancestor. It is a required step in the creation of an entirely new genus, as opposed to a branch of species which may/may not be capable of inter-species breeding.This is an incredibly rare occurrence (and has never been observed once, in recorded history), but would need to happen for macro-evolution to hold true.

You are assuming here the change is huge and sudden.  Trace us and Chimps back about 4 million years ago and you find our most recent common ancestor.  This was not a chimp or a human [Nakalipithecus is one of the candidates].  From this or a similar species, at the most basic level, two populations developed slowly over time, due likely to geographic separation from natural movement,or by some climatic or tectonic event.  These two populations, each developing different random mutations and responding to the environment developed different forms and eventually were unable to produce offspring if they mated, a critical break and one of the good lines in the sand for defining a species.  Roll forward a couple of more million years and you have two very distinct species, which still share many traits and have a common ancestor.

Quote
Not only does this rare and strange occurrence need to happen once, it must happen simultaneously within a colony. Several females in a population of apes must give birth to a new genus at exactly the same period of time (within a single generation), else the new creature has no mate with which to breed. It would live out its life, never be capable of offspring and die out. So it needs enough partners with the same genus and species to continue existing. This must also occur for macro-evolution to work, since the new species would die out at the end of its own lifetime.

This is incorrect. 

A single individual, who can still breed within the group, gains a small change and passes it on to its offspring.  Other individuals do this over the course of time as well, adding to the initial small change and it is the cumulative changes over a long period of time that allow a new species to arise, especially when a parent population is broken up for the reasons set out above. 

As humans we short circuited the breakup of our gene pool via technology, so the human population is now sharing genes across the entire earth.  No population was isolated for long enough for change to take hold in enough genes to prevent continued interbreeding.


Quote
As we all know, genetic diversity plays a part in how well a species can breed. Too much in-breeding causes genetic defect until a species is simply incapable of producing viable offspring. This now means that this rare occurrence, spread across many different females within a group, must now travel OUTSIDE of the group, geographically. A separate group of "apes" must give birth to modern humans (or at least homo-erectus) at the exact same time as the first group.

Now how does the second group experience the same catalyst for a chromosomal change at exactly the same time as the first group? What outside stimuli would need to be present and what COULD be present over such a distance? This would be akin to a baby suddenly being born with three eyes, then realizing the entire hospital has three-eyed babies. THEN realizing the hospital 25 miles away all have three-eyed babies as well.

There is no arising of the same random set of mutations in a second group as outlined above. An ancestor population is split up by whatever means and then random mutations passed on generation to generation create differences in the two populations.  Check in on them in a million years time and 2 different species now exist, but both can trace their lineage back to the original population.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2014, 06:45:10 PM »

"Random mutation?" I have a LOT of trouble believing the eye, or a leg is a 'random' mutation. They seem quite purposeful and more like a response to certain criteria. Why did certain fish develop legs, while others have existed since that time period and still have yet to develop them?
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2014, 06:55:44 PM »

FYI - I actually do tend to go with evolution as the most plausible theory. This is more of a "fill in the gaps" post for me.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2014, 06:59:41 PM »

I was typing on a phone a 4 in the morning with a lunatic 2 year old on the loose, so apologies for not getting completely across the answer.

Like I stated initially, and I mean this sincerely, get the eBook for The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution.  It is a very clear and easy to read explanation of all your questions and others.  The examples used are things that you could go out and measure for yourself, which is why it is such an excellent introduction to the subject.

Once you have devoured that, the answers will be as clear as day. However, I'll try again for you now that I have some quiet.

Your major issue is that your assuming the child, via a single mutation in a single gene [or it seems many genes by your assumption that child is a new species or genus] is suddenly a new species, it just does not work that way.  Look up some of the recent news articles on the rise of blue eyes over the last 6000 years.  We blue eyed all descended from one individual on the Black Sea who had a mutation on one of the eye color expressing genes.  By no means are blue eyed folks a different species, however, continue with such small changes over hundreds of thousands, or millions of years and you get something new.

That's fine that you didn't completely answer it, I was just pointing it out; I've been quite busy myself. I might just have to get that book eventually (along with "The God Delusion" and "Darwin's Black Box", among others); I've read so many things online about evolution, but barely any true books. I'll be sure to read plenty on both sides to get the full picture (and I really should read more in-between stuff [old earth creationists, theistic evolutionists, etc.]). I'd say that I understand evolution pretty well, but just don't think that that is how it really has to be.

As for the blue eye thing, I've never heard of that; which article would that be?


Quote
Quote
Evolution only works if two brunettes can spontaneously create a blonde, by way of some unknown, outside catalyst.

Evolution works via a KNOWN internal catalyst that does create spontaneous changes.  It is called Random Mutation.  There is no rhyme or rule to it, it just happens and is measurable across species.  You are seeking for an invisible hand guiding the process and it is not there.  Once you let that preconception go, evolution becomes far easier to understand.

My thought exactly Blacknova, though I've heard so much conflicting information about mutations that it's sometimes hard to believe that they can really help any. I knew the second that I read that line what the evolutionist answer to that would be. I'd say that that particular argument belongs on this list.



Quote
Quote
In order for a group of "apes" to become humans, the "apes" must give birth to a population of children incapable of reproducing with their parents' genus. They have a different set of chromosome and are now incompatible. This is the same, observable condition as modern man attempting to breed with his closest, simian ancestor. It is a required step in the creation of an entirely new genus, as opposed to a branch of species which may/may not be capable of inter-species breeding.This is an incredibly rare occurrence (and has never been observed once, in recorded history), but would need to happen for macro-evolution to hold true.

You are assuming here the change is huge and sudden.  Trace us and Chimps back about 4 million years ago and you find our most recent common ancestor.  This was not a chimp or a human [Nakalipithecus is one of the candidates].  From this or a similar species, at the most basic level, two populations developed slowly over time, due likely to geographic separation from natural movement,or by some climatic or tectonic event.  These two populations, each developing different random mutations and responding to the environment developed different forms and eventually were unable to produce offspring if they mated, a critical break and one of the good lines in the sand for defining a species.  Roll forward a couple of more million years and you have two very distinct species, which still share many traits and have a common ancestor.

Yeah, the change claimed by evolution isn't as drastic as he says (unless drastic change would conveniently help evolutionary theory, e.g. the cambrian explosion and punctuated equilibrium  ;) ). The thing that gets me is the vast number of assumptions that must be made to allow for evolution to work, but I won't attack that now.



Quote
Quote
Not only does this rare and strange occurrence need to happen once, it must happen simultaneously within a colony. Several females in a population of apes must give birth to a new genus at exactly the same period of time (within a single generation), else the new creature has no mate with which to breed. It would live out its life, never be capable of offspring and die out. So it needs enough partners with the same genus and species to continue existing. This must also occur for macro-evolution to work, since the new species would die out at the end of its own lifetime.

This is incorrect. 

A single individual, who can still breed within the group, gains a small change and passes it on to its offspring.  Other individuals do this over the course of time as well, adding to the initial small change and it is the cumulative changes over a long period of time that allow a new species to arise, especially when a parent population is broken up for the reasons set out above. 

As humans we short circuited the breakup of our gene pool via technology, so the human population is now sharing genes across the entire earth.  No population was isolated for long enough for change to take hold in enough genes to prevent continued interbreeding.

The question is how we have distinct species and such when technically evolution says it should all be constantly transitioning into "random" (emphasizing the air quotes) organisms. Instead we find recognizable "kinds" as the creationists call it, and we have limitations on how much the genes can change.



Quote
Quote
As we all know, genetic diversity plays a part in how well a species can breed. Too much in-breeding causes genetic defect until a species is simply incapable of producing viable offspring. This now means that this rare occurrence, spread across many different females within a group, must now travel OUTSIDE of the group, geographically. A separate group of "apes" must give birth to modern humans (or at least homo-erectus) at the exact same time as the first group.

Now how does the second group experience the same catalyst for a chromosomal change at exactly the same time as the first group? What outside stimuli would need to be present and what COULD be present over such a distance? This would be akin to a baby suddenly being born with three eyes, then realizing the entire hospital has three-eyed babies. THEN realizing the hospital 25 miles away all have three-eyed babies as well.

There is no arising of the same random set of mutations in a second group as outlined above. An ancestor population is split up by whatever means and then random mutations passed on generation to generation create differences in the two populations.  Check in on them in a million years time and 2 different species now exist, but both can trace their lineage back to the original population.

Okay, I revise my claim of tigershark's thought making sense if there's no actual evidence/occurrences to back it up. I may be a YEC  ;D but that surely doesn't mean that I have to be ignorant, irrational, denying evidence, or hating science. I read Popular Science regularly and get newsletters from the leading evolutionist and creationist web sites. I willingly listen to both sides of the debate and try to at least give respect to both (or all if you prefer an in-between stance) sides.

I'll get caught up with tigershark's posts after eating.
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Blacknova

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2014, 07:18:03 PM »

"Random mutation?" I have a LOT of trouble believing the eye, or a leg is a 'random' mutation. They seem quite purposeful and more like a response to certain criteria. Why did certain fish develop legs, while others have existed since that time period and still have yet to develop them?

Where I think you keep going wrong is in assuming that the eye or the leg are random in and of themselves.  Each is the result of endless small mutations, which expressed themselves as advantageous traits and were selected because they conferred a net benefit.  A slightly longer leg may have made you faster and therefore get you more food, allowing you to live longer and reproduce more often etc.  A mutation for a shorter leg might allow you to hide or hunt in hard to reach places, adding to your survival.

You seem to think that there is an end result that evolution is striving for.  There is not, it is just an ongoing development of species based on their random mutations and their ability to compete within changing environments based on the expressed advantages and disadvantages of their genome.  There is no master plan and we are not the pinnacle of evolution, we are just one of many species in the latest generation of species.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2014, 07:46:21 PM »

Bob,

Quote
That's fine that you didn't completely answer it, I was just pointing it out; I've been quite busy myself. I might just have to get that book eventually (along with "The God Delusion" and "Darwin's Black Box", among others); I've read so many things online about evolution, but barely any true books. I'll be sure to read plenty on both sides to get the full picture (and I really should read more in-between stuff [old earth creationists, theistic evolutionists, etc.]). I'd say that I understand evolution pretty well, but just don't think that that is how it really has to be.

You can't get both sides of the argument by comparing science based evolution and religious theorizing.  The anti-evolutionary creationists are trying to dress religion up as science, when it is not.  It is patently false and would be like calling blue in a coin toss and saying it is as valid as calling heads against tails.

Quote
As for the blue eye thing, I've never heard of that; which article would that be?

Announced a couple of weeks ago: http://humannhealth.com/blue-eyed-humans-have-a-single-common-ancestor/217/

Quote
My thought exactly Blacknova, though I've heard so much conflicting information about mutations that it's sometimes hard to believe that they can really help any. I knew the second that I read that line what the evolutionist answer to that would be. I'd say that that particular argument belongs on this list.

A mutation is not necessarily beneficial, it just happens.  If it is benign, like blue eyes it can persist, if it is good, it will likely persist and strengthen a segment of the population of a species.  If it is bad, your somebodies dinner, if you even get that far, though in some cases negative mutations can be carried on and persist, but that is getting into some complicated explanation that I'll leave to Dr. Dawkins book.

Quote
Yeah, the change claimed by evolution isn't as drastic as he says (unless drastic change would conveniently help evolutionary theory, e.g. the cambrian explosion and punctuated equilibrium  ;) ). The thing that gets me is the vast number of assumptions that must be made to allow for evolution to work, but I won't attack that now.

Punctuated equilibrium is not a bad theory, but I my view is that it is only part of the story, with gradual change punctuated by large environmental effects forcing rapid change through sudden expression of successful genes in a new and pressure filled world.  Could you list some of those assumptions.  Evolution as a theory is solid, though there is discussion on the exact mechanics of some of the finer points.

Quote
The question is how we have distinct species and such when technically evolution says it should all be constantly transitioning into "random" (emphasizing the air quotes) organisms. Instead we find recognizable "kinds" as the creationists call it, and we have limitations on how much the genes can change.

Off the mark a bit there.  If a mutation is bad, you will limit your chances for survival, in most instances.  However, look at swimming, the laws of fluid dynamics mean that certain shapes are more suited to moving rapidly through a fluid.  Therefore, various species with different shapes, moving to the water at different times will be more successful when they gain mutations that provide them with better shapes for swimming. 

It is called convergent evolution, when a certain form best fits the job, many species will select for it over long enough period of time.  Random mutation itself might be random, but the expression of these mutations is anything but random.  If you have fifth leg you might be in trouble, but have longer fags or better energy storage then you may well succeed.

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Okay, I revise my claim of tigershark's thought making sense if there's no actual evidence/occurrences to back it up. I may be a YEC  ;D but that surely doesn't mean that I have to be ignorant, irrational, denying evidence, or hating science. I read Popular Science regularly and get newsletters from the leading evolutionist and creationist web sites. I willingly listen to both sides of the debate and try to at least give respect to both (or all if you prefer an in-between stance) sides.

Like I said above.  It really is not a debate.  It is on one side one of the most heavily supported (through direct evidence) scientific theories going around (and the word theory does not equate to a guess as some folks like to think).  On the other side is reactionary right wing christianity, who for some reason see evolution as a direct threat to their religious views.


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Takiro

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Re: Evolution
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2014, 08:02:38 PM »

Evolution is solid science. I think we humans tend to have difficulty grasping the time this process takes cause let's face it civilization has outpaced evolution.  Since humanity has found its niche we've obliterated gradual change for an ever dizzying series of advancements from walking upright to the invention of writing to the construction of the atom bomb. This has all been accomplished so quickly that we've outpaced poor old evolution.  I always thought a neat concept for Sci Fi is not Terra forming planets for us but engineering people for planets.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 08:07:01 PM by Takiro »
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