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Author Topic: Health Care "Reform"  (Read 39964 times)

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Takiro

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Health Care "Reform"
« on: March 21, 2010, 05:53:44 PM »

Still no posts here so I thought I'd fire the first salvo.  ;)

Well it looks as though the United States will be the latest nation to join the ranks of socialized medicine for all. Now before my traditionalist rant seriously gets under way some "reform" is certainly needed and not only for the health care sector. Sadly "reform" has become a watch word for legislative stupidity used to justify any point of view - even those that frequently lack any glimmer of common sense. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad to see that the current regime who verbally berates business has bought these same evil doers in to help draft their legislation. In fact the bill forces everyone to buy health insurance from those same nefarious corporations who are so screwed up the government has to step in.

This troubling development seems to be the rule today. Too big to fail. Corporate Communism or as I think of it - the American Peerage System. The banks, automobile industry, and now health insurance companies have become the new protected aristocracy. Congrats guys. Rather than retaining our capitalistic democracy which promotes flexibility that often brings with it the frightening but necessary possibility of change we seem to be embracing a more stratified society that appears to be more safe. I guess this is the fate of all great nations throughout history who ascend to the mountain top only to grow so proud of their past that they become increasingly inflexible.

Humanity's search for opportunity and the need to adapt to life's innumerable challenges can not be anticipated or denied by any government even one as great as the United States. No caste system, feudalistic nobility, or the utopian dreams of Marx can pigeon hole the desire of people whose desire for freedom and success is boundless.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2010, 05:19:28 PM »

No caste system, feudalistic nobility, or the utopian dreams of Marx can pigeon hole the desire of people whose desire for freedom and success is boundless.

I slightly disagree with this statement.

In fact the bill forces everyone to buy health insurance from those same nefarious corporations who are so screwed up the government has to step in.

I will wait and see before making a comparison with other countries.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

blacktigeractual

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2010, 07:54:32 AM »

Too be honest I'm so sick of both sides prattle and to be honest this was one case where the right wing showed it's true colors (You should have seen the Nazi style tactics they've been pulling, paid mobs, and outright lies.) and the left with their usual hippy BS (No really we can fix everything...) I think you can understand why I went all Jerry Pournelle in the Black Tigers saga.
Crap, I wish I could move to Sparta.
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MechRat

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2010, 08:33:12 AM »

Too be honest I'm so sick of both sides prattle

Too true! :( Both sides have acted like their stereotypes with no one in the middle to help with a reasonable compromise. <sigh> While it's a good thing for more people to have access to medical care, I fear it may cause and create more problems than it will solve.

I think every incumbent politician should be voted out. >:( I know this may not solve any current problems, as I believe politics is inherently corrupt (at least at the state and national level), but it would certainly feel good. ;D
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Takiro

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2010, 10:57:23 AM »

I sort of agree with you guys. Wish there was a more moderate tone to politics but I also wish I had a million dollars and everyone had health care. Such is life.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2010, 04:28:22 PM »

I think every incumbent politician should be voted out. >:( I know this may not solve any current problems, as I believe politics is inherently corrupt (at least at the state and national level), but it would certainly feel good. ;D

Isn't incumbent politician twice the same words? :P

And from what I hear on radio (I don't have time to watch TV these days) or see on the Internet, the situation is messy with State Prosecutors going against the law and Republican Congressmen finding an irregularity in the way the law was voted.

And this is supposed to be the first democracy in the world? :(
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Kit

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2010, 12:39:42 PM »

As the only person who works in the health care field in this forums (that I know of >.> ) I can honestly say the bill that got passed is an incoherent mess and that the Republican's biggest talking points (that it is too big) are correct, although for different reasons than they are giving.

Basically Obama ended up dropping the ball with this one because he was busy worrying about the economy and there is only so much he can focus on even with all his staff.  As such he left it to congress.  Want to know what the best way to take a simple idea and turn it into a mish mash of half worked ideas is?  Give it to a room of several hundred people and let them collaborate until everyone agrees, especially when it comes to them being able to give themselves (their states) money in the process.

The thing to keep in mind with the bill is it is trying to fix too much too fast when the health care system cannot handle its CURRENT load of patients (it is very much running at capacity.  Capacity can be increased temporarily maybe as much as 4 times by overtime workers, but the fact is there are not enough people or facilities to DO the job).

In addition there are so many provisions to the bill going into effect at once and we honestly don't really know what any of them will do.  Lets say (100% hypothetically) for a moment that we enact the bill and suddenly for some reason health care gets more expensive, slower, and more dangerous to get.  How do you know which portions of the bill are causing this problem?  Is it some extra regulation clause?  Some admittance of new liability?  Maybe there is a new clause that you cannot turn people away no matter what and the ER is getting filled with people that have splinters in their fingers.  Or god forbid it be a combination of 7 or 8 different factors completely obscuring what is wrong.

The Republican criticism that the bill is a big ugly dog is very valid, it is trying to completely fix everything in a single pass.  If something is wrong it will be impossible to tell what exactly.  While I doubt the health care system will completely fall apart under this new bill I am a bit worried that having so many changes that are frankly not too well understood going into affect all at once will shock the system.

A better way would have been to go with small bills that even the Republicans wouldn't have been able to vote against if they wanted to stay in office.  Something small that has an immediate benefit that is tangible and easy to measure.  Something that shows in a definite way that things can be made better.  Like a simple provision (which actually did make it into the health care bill) to prevent rejection of insurance based off of preexisting conditions.  Not a sweeping reform by any means but it will have an immediate impact on a whole bunch of people.  The idea behind the bill is so simple that is impossible for opposition to obscure the issue in a meaningful way, and it would have gotten through the door quickly rather than languishing in congress for over a year.  After giving people awhile to see that this works you pass another bill, just as small and just as simple.  And another.  Slowly introducing reform so people can see it works and also giving you a chance to make sure it works and the chance to repeal it if it does not.  Eventually you can roll them up all together into a single bill.

The problem is that there is a lot of pressure to fix everything fast.  As Homer Simpson said "Marge, do you want it done fast or right?"  (Marge: "Well of course like every American I want it done fast.")  There is an understandable pressure to reform health care quickly, the problem is that while there is a definite need to fix the system it is just as important to fix it right.  You don't want your doctor rushing that operation just so you can get out in public faster when he is pulling a tumor out of your brain and you don't want the system that your doctor works in rushed through changes that will affect quality of care either.

EDIT: I... may have thought about this a bit much.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 12:40:09 PM by Kit »
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2010, 04:29:25 PM »

Interesting thoughts.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2010, 08:54:57 PM »

Very well put Kit. It has long been the dream of progressive politicians to get there hands on the health care system. Rather then passively fixing problems as they occur we've aggressive thrown a lot of switches and to hell with the consequences. Now that we've started playing in this sandbox we can come back and "fix it" later. ::) I've come to the conclusion that the tax system which gives the federal government far too much power has to be amended. It is the only way to eliminate their power base.
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FirstStarLord

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2010, 10:42:07 PM »

Very well put Kit. It has long been the dream of progressive politicians to get there hands on the health care system. Rather then passively fixing problems as they occur we've aggressive thrown a lot of switches and to hell with the consequences. Now that we've started playing in this sandbox we can come back and "fix it" later. ::) I've come to the conclusion that the tax system which gives the federal government far too much power has to be amended. It is the only way to eliminate their power base.

We're way past the point where this government can be controlled through normal political checks. It seems we Americans no longer understand how democracy works. It reminds me of the late Roman Republic where the state had expanded so much that when the Senate tried to rule in the manner of their forefathers, things got worse and led to more civil wars.

It's more than just health care though. I have enough problems with my health, but the bill itself won't change the basic way I get my care. It will make a whole lot of politicians and their cronies rich however. They can pilfer the public treasury at their leisure, and we common citizens have few civilized means to protest them when they do, and yelling at them does not work. More than that however, the elite of the United States are morally and intellectually bankrupt and hold other citizens in utter contempt. The rot in their heads is deep, and I think the country is in for a lot more pain before things turn the corner.
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MechRat

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2010, 01:03:56 PM »

More than that however, the elite of the United States are morally and intellectually bankrupt and hold other citizens in utter contempt. The rot in their heads is deep, and I think the country is in for a lot more pain before things turn the corner.

Well put! ;D
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Takiro

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2010, 01:16:55 PM »

Since the fail of the Soviets you've seen the rise of a new aristocracy all over the world and America has not been immune. Corrupt efforts to entrench these pseudo elite are the cause of many problems. Think it is time we hit the reset button on them.  ;)
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FirstStarLord

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2010, 03:41:53 PM »

Since the fail of the Soviets you've seen the rise of a new aristocracy all over the world and America has not been immune. Corrupt efforts to entrench these pseudo elite are the cause of many problems. Think it is time we hit the reset button on them.  ;)

It's not really a "new" aristocracy in that sense. Sure, they are bringing in some new people (who think exactly as they do), but you would probably be shocked at how many generations this goes back. The leaders of our society are simply implementing new methods of control that were formulated in the first decades of the 20th century,which were in turn were based upon intellectual philosophies developed during the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution.

Here's some reading to help introduce you to these concepts:

Education:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/1a.htm

Consumerism:

http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/2962
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Kit

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2010, 07:02:12 AM »

Heh.

Honestly people tend to look at too few things to talk about why things have been changing and going downhill.  For one point, I don't think things on the whole are really going down hill all that much (at least compared to what most tend to assume).

The biggest problem facing the US right now is actually rather interesting.  Effectively our government doesn't match our culture anymore and thus is having pains.

You see, our type of government is very much geared to a British mercantile culture.  When our nation was founded that is exactly what we were, and in fact we remained a mercantile culture up until the 70's or 80s.  Around then however we made a switch over to a service economy, and our democracy has suffered as a result.

This is particularly a problem with the US because the founding documents of the nation are actually revered almost to religious levels.  You will not hear someone say "Down with the Constitution, long live the United States" EVER because it is just politically and culturally impossible to do so without being branded an outcast.  By contrast in a European nation like France such sentiments are expressed from time to time without the extreme reaction you see in the US.  As a result it is very difficult for us to break from the initial ideas of the nation's founding in order to evolve our government to meet the current challenges (this on top of a government system that is already inefficient by design).

There are of course other factors involved as well.  The large divide that currently exists between the two political parties while they both ironically agree on the large majority of issues for instance.  Both parties are completely convinced they are defending the true heart of what the US is, and both are convinced that the opposing group is taking actions which are going to undermine the nation completely, and are utterly unable to bring themselves to find a middle ground.  People complain about how much the Republicans are using filibusters currently and how they are using them at the highest levels ever, but they fail to mention that previously it was the democrats doing the exact same thing while Bush was in office and back then the Democrats were at the highest levels ever, and before them it was the Republicans again, and before them the Democrats, and so forth.  Each time they reach new highs of how often it is used, and when the tables are turned the other party goes to even greater extremes.

Another matter is that political savvy in the US (and actually all modernized nations) has declined sharply with the introduction of TV.  The prime example of this is the Nixon/JFK debates where those who heard it on radio or read the transcript thought that Nixon had won quite clearly and those who saw it on TV thought JFK had won.  Ever since TV was introduced it has ceased to matter what you say so much as what people see while you say it.  This has even caused a huge problem with news reporting, and is maybe one of the major reasons that current news agencies are finding such problems competing in the internet age (where people are quickly finding they get more accurate information from a few quick web searches and a bit of reading than from watching the 9PM news).

Blah, long winded again.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Health Care "Reform"
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2010, 04:58:58 PM »

This is particularly a problem with the US because the founding documents of the nation are actually revered almost to religious levels.  You will not hear someone say "Down with the Constitution, long live the United States" EVER because it is just politically and culturally impossible to do so without being branded an outcast.  By contrast in a European nation like France such sentiments are expressed from time to time without the extreme reaction you see in the US.  As a result it is very difficult for us to break from the initial ideas of the nation's founding in order to evolve our government to meet the current challenges (this on top of a government system that is already inefficient by design).

True but is it because the idea of France as a nation is superior to the idea of a constitution (or the reverse with the idea of a Constitution being superior to the idea of the USA as a nation)? or for another reason?

To me, the Constitution is not what defines a country.
It helps but they are just overall rules that are applied in the political organisation, in the laws and such but the true definition of a country is what makes people inside it hold together, what makes them say I am French, German, American...
This has more to do with language, history, culture...
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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