Topic: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act) (Read 42081 times)

Blacknova · « **Reply #30 on:** November 22, 2013, 07:51:42 PM »

I am aware of the poems context.

You miss my point though and it does appear that you will continue to do so.

You seem to believe that the land of the free means the land of those free to be poor and suffer, even when it is beyond their control. I come from a country where we believe the government has a duty to ensure a minimum standard of living for all its citizens, where we care for those who cannot care for themselves. There will always be bludgers, but there are ways to make even those types contribute.

Like the Scandanavians, we have have some of the highest ratings for all areas of social well being, we rode out the GFC better than any developed nation, as we regulated our banking industry, just like the good and dirty socialists were are. We don't loose 30 000 of out people to gun death every year, because we took guns away from most people and since then have not had a massacre. We have a government that whilst not perfect seems, for the most part, to govern in the interests of the people, even when that is not always politically sound, though lately there has been a worrying change in rhetoric.

I think your country is lucky to have had a progressive President like Obama, and lucky that your country is starting to take care of its own in such a whole of nation way. Though you decry the costs, there are far more onerous costs, for things of less value to the whole of society than universal health care. One day, those in your country who think as you do, may realize that helping others through methods such as these are far better than letting your countrymen suffer without care or be ruined by the costs of it. For a country that so espouses christian values (the irony of that in a state founded as a secular nation is not lost on me), it is a sad state of affairs that caring for your fellow man is seen as such an evil thing for the government to do.

Coriendal · « **Reply #31 on:** November 22, 2013, 09:40:40 PM »

Everything you say is true. But don't forget how we got to our intolerant ways. Plymouth when our nation was founded, "if you want to eat you must work". Manifest Destiny as we expanded West. We believed we were destined to rule, just ask the Indians. Two world wars in which we became "THE" empire. What followed was a natural progression. We arrogantly assumed we could say and do anything because we were the biggest bully in the world. Then we decided that we didn't actually have to only spend the money we had. We could just print more, just because we WERE the world currency.

We have three classes over here and a forgotten fourth(the poor). The haves, millionaires, and the social elite, they get loopholes so they don't pay taxes. One corporation made $300 billion a few years ago and paid no taxes because of loopholes. The middle class, the workers. They pay for just about everything. The poor who need help and the last one, the small group who feel they are owed everything but never have to work or contribute. The politicians focus on the last group to get their base in a frenzy. Our politics have become polarized on how the other side is wrong and we have to win. No one is trying to find a fair and equitable solution anymore.

I envy a nation in which winning is not everything and finding a solution is the goal.

Takiro · « **Reply #32 on:** November 22, 2013, 10:41:47 PM »

Sadly individual responsibility isn't the easiest way of life to defend and doing so don't make you popular. Most people are idiots and putting any faith these wannabe reality tv stars is hard to imagine. After all the greater good as shaped by the agenda driven seem to have the best answers, that is if you don't examine their results which care little for persons and more about the numbers. No one can just show up and truly know better for you then you. America ain't perfect but I keep trying everyday to make things a little better. We got a bunch of stuff that needs work and sadly solutions like Obamacare are not helpful. They hurt real people today who had health coverage and now don't - next year things get a whole lot worse. The law needs to be repealed. The idea that things can be given by the government for free needs to go. Then we can roll up our sleeves and have a serious discussion on affordable health care.

TigerShark · « **Reply #33 on:** November 22, 2013, 11:57:16 PM »

Quote from: Blacknova on November 22, 2013, 07:51:42 PM

I am aware of the poems context.

You miss my point though and it does appear that you will continue to do so.

You seem to believe that the land of the free means the land of those free to be poor and suffer, even when it is beyond their control. I come from a country where we believe the government has a duty to ensure a minimum standard of living for all its citizens, where we care for those who cannot care for themselves. There will always be bludgers, but there are ways to make even those types contribute.

Like the Scandanavians, we have have some of the highest ratings for all areas of social well being, we rode out the GFC better than any developed nation, as we regulated our banking industry, just like the good and dirty socialists were are. We don't loose 30 000 of out people to gun death every year, because we took guns away from most people and since then have not had a massacre. We have a government that whilst not perfect seems, for the most part, to govern in the interests of the people, even when that is not always politically sound, though lately there has been a worrying change in rhetoric.

I think your country is lucky to have had a progressive President like Obama, and lucky that your country is starting to take care of its own in such a whole of nation way. Though you decry the costs, there are far more onerous costs, for things of less value to the whole of society than universal health care. One day, those in your country who think as you do, may realize that helping others through methods such as these are far better than letting your countrymen suffer without care or be ruined by the costs of it. For a country that so espouses christian values (the irony of that in a state founded as a secular nation is not lost on me), it is a sad state of affairs that caring for your fellow man is seen as such an evil thing for the government to do.

America is not one country. It's many "countries", separated by political leanings, geography, race, religion, etc. You fail to realize that people here don't like each-other much. When one group is in peril, you won't exactly find millions rushing to their aid. There are good people who donate, volunteer, etc., but that's far from the norm. If a group of people with a foreign religion, philosophical bent, geographical origin, etc. are in need, you can expect resistance and alienation from the vast majority. Sure, you'll catch those food drives on the news after Hurricane Katrina or the 9-11 workers digging people out of the rubble, but they represent a very small slice of the country who cared enough to do a damned thing.

Every group has an idea of how they want the country to be. You can legislate old ideas away, but you can't legislate peoples' beliefs. There is no amount of government intervention which takes away the fact that homosexuality is antithetical to Judeo-Christian and Islamic beliefs. You can't make a law forcing kids to want to stay in school instead of snort cocaine and drop out on the government dole. You certainly can't take two different religious or racial groups, jam them into an area and expect peace and rainbows. Maybe in Australia or Sweden, as you mention, but that's not how it works here.

Folks are out for themselves because that's what they can expect in return from others: Zip. Our corporate structure is built to reward those who step on others to claw their way to the top. The guy who spends all day/night at the office is rewarded with the big salary, not the man who spends time with his wife and kids. You can choose to be egalitarian and live your life in a giving, pacifistic way, but you can also expect that others will take full advantage of you, if and when they can.

Does it all sound cynical? Sure as heck does. And I don't like it being that way. But it's the way of our world in the USA and making legislation like the PPACA only creates more friction and disharmony. (FYI - I volunteer at soup kitchens and will be spending Thanksgiving peeling potatoes and serving dinner. I'm not some douche who hates other human beings; I just don't want to be told I HAVE to care by the government.)

TigerShark · « **Reply #34 on:** November 23, 2013, 12:06:22 AM »

As another commentary:

I believe socialism works. As does communism, fascism, capitalism, and any other system of government when represented in its purest forms. As soon as a conflicting ideology invades, the efficiency begins to dwindle and things fall apart.

Take the fall of the Soviet Union for example. The free market society undercut the Kremlin's budget in the Middle East by tens of billions of dollars. Their expenditures in Afghanistan could not be recouped by an economy whose goods were of low quality due to lack of competition. Competing with the Star Wars program was impossible; communism doesn't encourage innovation and growth. So competing with a capitalist society was not going to be possible for an economic system built on egalitarianism. In this way, the communist government in Russia didn't explode; it imploded from an inability to adapt to the changes it was forced to undergo from external sources.

The same is happening to us right now. We're built on a capitalist core, but when egalitarian measures are injected into the system, things collapse. Investors don't encourage growth; they draw back their monies into foreign accounts and other capitalist systems abroad. Minimum wage doesn't increase growth; it encourages outsourcing of labor to countries with, again, capitalist leanings. Were we 100% socialist, the PPACA would work. Were we 100% capitalist, it would not be needed, since cost would be dictated entirely by the marketplace. The middle ground is, like Mr. Miyagi said, "squish like grape."

Blacknova · « **Reply #35 on:** November 23, 2013, 02:55:41 AM »

Here's to being Australian, this conversation has only reenforced my belief in how lucky I am to live here and not have to deal with this sort of thing.

Knightmare · « **Reply #36 on:** November 23, 2013, 09:32:18 AM »

Quote from: TigerShark on November 22, 2013, 11:57:16 PM

Does it all sound cynical? Sure as heck does. And I don't like it being that way. But it's the way of our world in the USA and making legislation like the PPACA only creates more friction and disharmony. (FYI - I'm not some douche who hates other human beings; I just don't want to be told I HAVE to care by the government.)

Sadly, this is very true.

Quote from: TigerShark on November 23, 2013, 12:06:22 AM

Were we 100% socialist, the PPACA would work. Were we 100% capitalist, it would not be needed, since cost would be dictated entirely by the marketplace. The middle ground is, like Mr. Miyagi said, "squish like grape."

The only thing I'll say on the matter is that free market capitalism and socialism can co-exist and flourish, but it has everything to do with how a government spends its money, regulates business and protects its people.

Here's a fun little article easily highlighting how the US has spent money on its military post-WWII as the world's policeman and empire builder.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/01/07/everything-chuck-hagel-needs-to-know-about-the-defense-budget-in-charts/

Comparatively, looking at what the US spends compared to the next dozen countries is staggering, and before the "but America needs to defend itself" folks get all up in arms thinking military cuts would threaten our national security you should spend some time looking at what that money is being spent on - perhaps the most expensive and over-budget aircraft carrier of all time for one...

Personally, spending 40% of our budget on Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security doesn't bother me. If those systems work and I'm paying into them my whole working life and I'll someday receive their benefit, then my tax dollars are working. Even welfare, which gets a lot of flack from people, is a small expenditure in comparison to programs for paying peoplesâ€”yet it gets blown totally out of proportion by the media.

Quote from: TigerShark on November 23, 2013, 12:06:22 AM

Investors don't encourage growth; they draw back their monies into foreign accounts and other capitalist systems abroad. Minimum wage doesn't increase growth; it encourages outsourcing of labor to countries with, again, capitalist leanings.

Again, this comes down to how the government functions. Is the govt. a function of the people of corporate interests? I'd say corporate interests. If the govt. protected its citizens you could see a govt. that punished domestic companies that outsourced, but offered tax incentives equal to or better to the number of citizens it hired. The incentive would grow with the rise in inflation and the minimum wage. Assuming for a second the tax breaks were worthwhile to offset the cost of hiring domestically, and the penalties great enough to discourage outsourcing it's win-win. Companies can maintain their fat profit margins, the govt. makes money off of the taxes of folks at work, the citizenry wins by having paying jobs available and the minimum wage gets to rise would the fear of massive job loss.

Huzzah, capitalism and socialism working together.

It's not a far-fetched scenario, but it requires invested citizens to invest in their govt. ideas and a desire to create fixes and compromises that benefit all parties involved. It's not difficult to encourage investmentâ€”we do it all the timeâ€”but it takes some energy to encourage investment that benefits everyone.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #37 on:** November 23, 2013, 10:38:48 AM »

Quote from: TigerShark on November 22, 2013, 11:57:16 PM

The guy who spends all day/night at the office is rewarded with the big salary, not the man who spends time with his wife and kids.

Really? There is such a country?
Corporate world doesn't work that way.

TigerShark · « **Reply #38 on:** November 23, 2013, 10:40:53 AM »

Quote from: Ice Hellion on November 23, 2013, 10:38:48 AM

Quote from: TigerShark on November 22, 2013, 11:57:16 PM
The guy who spends all day/night at the office is rewarded with the big salary, not the man who spends time with his wife and kids.

Really? There is such a country?
Corporate world doesn't work that way.

Explain how it does work.

Dread Moores · « **Reply #39 on:** November 23, 2013, 11:57:37 AM »

Quote from: Coriendal on November 22, 2013, 09:40:40 PM

We have three classes over here and a forgotten fourth(the poor).

We really, really don't anymore. There's two, maybe two and a half if you want to be generous. That's one of the first ideas that needs to go before any kind of solution. Neo-colonialism and the implicit racism (along with a whole host of other -isms) that goes right along with it is the second. Our slavish love of a complete fabrication of "free market capitalism" would probably be third. The whole "Christian nation" notion ranks up there pretty high as well, probably right beside our slavish devotion to a military ideal that hasn't existed since World War II. The multi-country or states independence view is also another key problem area. It's pretty amazing how many of the states championing those ideas are the ones hopelessly dependent on national aid (like my own!).

Not a single one of these things will ever happen, nor change, and most of the support to back that up is right here in this thread. There will always be too large of a vocal minority that believes in the "Remember when..." viewpoint. It is far easier to point the finger at Barbados, since the respected Senator from Pennsyl-tucky told us they are the next Axis of Evil. It will continue to be far easier to look afar than look at home for the roots of problems. It will always be easier to exist in a state of extreme corporate personhood, buying our data in pre-packaged bits, rather than receiving information for further critical analysis. It's one of the reasons I stopped buying Shadowrun products. I don't need them anymore. I can simply look outside my window.

All that being said, I don't find it a bleak, hopeless landscape full of tyranny (there's a word tossed around way, way too easily). I just find it to be a world that's very broken, and far better to put my energies into improving conditions in my own small sphere of influence rather than attempting to tackle a regional or national scale. Trying to convince people to step outside the "Remember when..." mindset is a fight that you'll need to spend just about every minute of every day trying to fight for the rest of your life. There are some who do, and they'll have my respect and limited support to continue doing so. I just can't do it anymore. I'm a bit too busy trying to get my daily soma from the Friend Computer.

TigerShark · « **Reply #40 on:** November 23, 2013, 01:23:10 PM »

You mistake "remember when..." for a rejection of Egalitarianism. We are being forced to treat every person as exactly the same, regardless of any evidence to the contrary. If you point out differences which obviously exist, you're a racist, bigot, sexist, ignorant, misogynistic, or any other host of colorful words used to shame people into the government's politically-correct box.

That sort of thinking has us in an eternal quagmire in the Middle East, as we cannot figure out why Muslims don't want to change their culture to comply with Egalitarianism. Our government can't wrap its head around the concept of people taking their religious values seriously. So we proceed as if every human being can be bought and sold like our politicians or have their religious values warped into a politically-correct theology.

The PPACA is an extension of that idiocy. It doesn't take a look at the fraud being perpetrated by individuals on our hospitals; doesn't address the doctors' concerns about medically-allowed practices; doesn't address the wage gap or the outsourcing of labor. It's a blanket fix meant to satisfy liberal constituents.

At the same time this is occurring, you might want to look at the Trans-Pacific Partnership being shoved down our throats. NAFTA ensured that we have no tariffs to protect us against slave wages in 3rd-world countries. So our jobs all got shipped to Indonesia, Mexico, China, etc. Now we have another NAFTA-esque treaty guaranteeing more corporate rights (transparency between borders to escape taxes and labor laws), extending patents (more $$$ to pay for prescription drugs!) and a whole host of other evils. Without Egalitarian nonsense like this treaty, Americans might have a better standard of living and more industrial jobs.

Knightmare · « **Reply #41 on:** November 23, 2013, 02:47:26 PM »

Quote from: TigerShark on November 23, 2013, 01:23:10 PM

You mistake "remember when..." for a rejection of Egalitarianism. We are being forced to treat every person as exactly the same, regardless of any evidence to the contrary. If you point out differences which obviously exist, you're a racist, bigot, sexist, ignorant, misogynistic, or any other host of colorful words used to shame people into the government's politically-correct box.

It reminds me of the white-washing taking place in public school text books. It's the liberal counter example of discussing, or rather retconning difference. For example, saying that a blind person who climbed everyone mountain in North America is "special" highlights his disability, or using the term "Senior Citizen" is a stab being an ageist, etc. These days every child apparently deserves a gold star or blue ribbon just for showing up. The problem with this pseudo-Pleasantville approach is that kids grow up thinking they're super special while being completely unprepared for the realities of the world. It's not practical, or doing anyone any favors. Suicides among teens have skyrocketedâ€”without the whole bullying thingâ€”over the last two decades because plenty of children can't handle.

Quote from: TigerShark on November 23, 2013, 01:23:10 PM

Our government can't wrap its head around the concept of people taking their religious values seriously. So we proceed as if every human being can be bought and sold like our politicians or have their religious values warped into a politically-correct theology.

See, I tend to see the exact opposite in US politics, with the small, vocal ultra-conservative Christian minority working tirelessly toward that end. Swap out 'government' for 'loudest frontrunners and the highjacking members of the tea party' and you've pretty much nailed a major hurdle in finding some sort of middle ground. As one side digs in, the other operates accordingly until we've reached a replica of the political equivalent of the western front. It's all a reaction or product of the changes made to the federal government. The govt. was structured to tell you what you couldn't do (like speed limits) to what you could do (the ACA). It's a subtle, but fundamental change in how a government treats its citizens...and it's the citizenry's fault for allowing its politicians to make it happen.

I'm ranting.

TigerShark · « **Reply #42 on:** November 23, 2013, 06:48:25 PM »

Quote from: Knightmare on November 23, 2013, 02:47:26 PM

See, I tend to see the exact opposite in US politics, with the small, vocal ultra-conservative Christian minority working tirelessly toward that end. Swap out 'government' for 'loudest frontrunners and the highjacking members of the tea party' and you've pretty much nailed a major hurdle in finding some sort of middle ground. As one side digs in, the other operates accordingly until we've reached a replica of the political equivalent of the western front. It's all a reaction or product of the changes made to the federal government. The govt. was structured to tell you what you couldn't do (like speed limits) to what you could do (the ACA). It's a subtle, but fundamental change in how a government treats its citizens...and it's the citizenry's fault for allowing its politicians to make it happen.

I'm ranting.

I agree, but one caveat: The Tea Party and the Republicans do not represent Christianity. They represent corporate interests masked under the guise of Egalitarian Christianity.

Historical Christianity considered charging interest on a loan to be usury; a crime punishable by death. The Protestants (which comprise the wide majority of Republicans) made no graven images and destroyed the ones they came across, en masse. Today's Republicans make an issue about not being able to wear a cross to work or post religious portraits, icons, memes, etc. I could go on with a dozen more blatant violations of historical Christianity's tenets, but you probably get the point.

They're wolves in sheep's clothing.

Blacknova · « **Reply #43 on:** November 23, 2013, 07:46:23 PM »

This is why separation of church and state is so important. Why some mob's 2000 year old fairy tales are better than some other mob's 2500 year old myth and should therefore be used as a template for 21st century living, is not just ridiculous, it's asking for trouble.

Knightmare · « **Reply #44 on:** November 24, 2013, 10:28:30 AM »

Quote from: TigerShark on November 23, 2013, 06:48:25 PM

I agree, but one caveat: The Tea Party and the Republicans do not represent Christianity. They represent corporate interests masked under the guise of Egalitarian Christianity.

Living in the South for almost a decade would suggest your last sentence is in error. Personally, I think you're being overtly kind to evangelicals everywhere.

And no offense, but if a group of people is espousing religious ideologies they are representatives of that religious ideology for better or for worse. At the end of the day, the black sheep of any family is still a member of the family. Accept, embrace and move on.

Quote from: Blacknova on November 23, 2013, 07:46:23 PM

This is why separation of church and state is so important. Why some mob's 2000 year old fairy tales are better than some other mob's 2500 year old myth and should therefore be used as a template for 21st century living, is not just ridiculous, it's asking for trouble.

Agreed, but it's the wording that defines the so-called 'separation' that is most problematic. Where does the separation take place? In the spending of govt. dollars, govt. protection of religious institutions and individuals, or the introduction of legislation that may or may not have religious roots? Where does God fit into the discussion insofar as removing him from the back of our dollar, the pledge of allegiance, etc., or introducing religion in the classroomsâ€”such as teaching creationism in public schools?

Do we make religion an entirely free market institutionâ€”no different than any other start up companyâ€”or do we acknowledge the compromise, but try to insulate our legislative process and laws from it?

It's another complicated question.

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Author Topic: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act) (Read 42081 times)

Blacknova

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

Coriendal

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

Takiro

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

TigerShark

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

TigerShark

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

Blacknova

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

Knightmare

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

Ice Hellion

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

TigerShark

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

Dread Moores

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

TigerShark

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

Knightmare

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

TigerShark

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

Blacknova

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)

Knightmare

Re: Obamacare (A.K.A. Affordable Care Act)