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General BattleTech => Alternate Universe => Salient Horizon => Topic started by: Takiro on March 22, 2020, 11:14:06 PM

Title: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on March 22, 2020, 11:14:06 PM
Well the post subject says it all for Salient Horizon and we have a few different driving factors which would include differing events. Before I get to those I just want to work forward with what we already know and apply a dash of common sense.

One of the first developments I think the InnerSphere could make is larger Streak SRM (Streak SRM-4 and SRM-6) deployment which is fairly straight forward and would make sense. I mean look at simply interlocking two Streak SRM-2s which would produce a Streak SRM-4 relatively overnight especially after rudimentary looks at similar Clan equipment. Don't think it would be difficult to get them out quickly say 3054. Streak SRM-6s have a little different ammo breakdown which could produce some obstacles but really nothing different from non-Streak SRMs.

That is just one example but with the deployment of the Blazer especially thanks to the 3rd Marik Civil War you could see a whole different set of simple discoveries like creation of an AC/15 and other unique systems perhaps long under research and spurred by the creation of the Martial Accords.

Thoughts??
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 23, 2020, 12:06:38 AM
Depends how far you want to take it.

Missile launchers are launchers.  Extra-Extra-Light ACs or engines?  Might be too far.  So, how reasonable do you want to be?
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on March 23, 2020, 09:05:46 AM
Pretty reasonable, although I have my own ideas on what that will be. Here are a few please feel free to add your own -

Horizontally Mounted Engines - A fundamental reordering of the BattleMech's interior on par with the Torso Mounted Cockpit was considered possible but unwarranted by designers whose maintenance and cost issues would be much more than normal.

Dual Fusion Engines - Building on the Horizontal Mounts this innovation allows BattleMechs to utilize two Engines each spaced out over the torsos working as one. Two 200 Fusion Engines would equal a 400 and of course would need a four ton gyro in order to balance things out. [Granted this is far off and needs work]

Enhanced Pulse Lasers - somehow improve the ranges on InnerSphere models

Large, Medium, and Small Flamers - building on the original model I'd like to scale these up
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 23, 2020, 10:50:51 AM
K from real BT perspective I figure these are easy to move forward

the Light / Standard / Heavy gauss. Its just a matter of size in this regard the technology itself is already known.

Same could be said for PPCs

The Machine guns

Cruise missiles hell the Germans had them in WWII can't understand why don't have something just slightly more advanced in the far future.


Outside BT thoughts


Shields, we know they have them on Solaris whether that was a fluff mistake or something else. Say its not as advanced only vs energy lets say. Cap is Engine class divided by 100 so a 400 engine you get a 40 pt shield. How quickly does it recuperate cap divided by 10. So 4 pts a turn. Put it as 1 crit location required per spot besides CT at 2 as well as .5 ton per location so 4 tons.


The most complicated thought I have without coffee yet is, I'd love to see the development of drones. Having a construction similar to battlearmor and in size wise. Would make sense a 'Mech than could theoretically then carry 4 to 5 without issue for various roles.



Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 23, 2020, 12:21:55 PM
Um.

The Germans had ballistic V2 missiles; think Scud missile launchers, not computerized, low-flying, terrain-following missiles.

Shields...  Shields might be a step too far.  Major buildings, military fortresses - maybe.  Maybe.

Pretty reasonable, although I have my own ideas on what that will be. Here are a few please feel free to add your own -

Horizontally Mounted Engines - A fundamental reordering of the BattleMech's interior on par with the Torso Mounted Cockpit was considered possible but unwarranted by designers whose maintenance and cost issues would be much more than normal.

Dual Fusion Engines - Building on the Horizontal Mounts this innovation allows BattleMechs to utilize two Engines each spaced out over the torsos working as one. Two 200 Fusion Engines would equal a 400 and of course would need a four ton gyro in order to balance things out. [Granted this is far off and needs work]

Enhanced Pulse Lasers - somehow improve the ranges on InnerSphere models

Large, Medium, and Small Flamers - building on the original model I'd like to scale these up

Engines - interior reorganizations don't change much.  Dual engines?  I have dual-engine small craft I use in the bomber, Cap-missile torpedo bombers, or space-superiority craft.  To keep the munchie-factor to a minimum I ruled they need to be standard engines.
Lasers - how about a blend of pulse and heavy laser tech?  Extra range from the sheer strength of the beam, extra damage from the pulse, more heat from the heavy laser tech
Flamers - I guess.  Maybe limit the range along with the mass?  Range 1/2/3.  Mass .5, 1, 2.  Damage might be heat for Mechs, damage for other vees and infantry, or whatever rule you prefer.

Why not make a coherent list of desired new tech, first, then we can all debate it?
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 23, 2020, 01:36:49 PM
I used the Germans in WW2 as the fluff I read on Sarna for them says unguided so cruise missiles in name but with v2 scud level targeting
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on March 23, 2020, 03:37:05 PM
A list is an idea Red Pins, I'll start jotting stuff down. Like thanks to the proliferation of the Blazer in the 3rd Marik Civil War would Medium and Small Blazers appear? I mean essentially a Blazer is two Large Laser welded together. How about MRMs too - do you guys like the canon version or the old video game version from the early Mechwarrior??

Lets talk some events which may hurt or help our little progression here, please add any you feel help or hurt the InnerSphere.

Early Discovery of New Dallas. Thanks to the Fox's Foresight I was planning on having the Hegemony Memory Core found much earlier than canon say by 3055. Would this make a big difference?

Martial Alliance. With a formal organization in place to stop the Clans could research exchanges and joint scientific programs help speed innovation?

3rd Marik Civil War. Chance for destruction here but at the same time a chance for development as different sides experiment with new tech hoping to gain an advantage.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 23, 2020, 04:58:14 PM
Says on Sarna the core enabled smaller manufacturers to resume production and retrotech.  I suppose more production isn't a bad thing.  But - if you want to help the Periphery nations the retrotech would come in handy.  Besides pirates, they could always attack the CC like the Magistracy and FWL nation did.

The alliance idea is reasonable, but what would it do?  Focus on Clan tech or new concepts for the IS to balance the fight?  They didn't aim to deliberately develop new tech in canon.

If you're going to have a civil war, maybe have the Periphery ally and attack them when they're weak  With retrotech?  Regulans and Oriente could fight it out, or how about CC and the FWL nation (Andurian?) attacking the Magistracy?
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Ice Hellion on March 23, 2020, 05:01:32 PM
Better Rifles?
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 23, 2020, 05:01:46 PM
As this fits in how bout bringing back the LR ans SR DFMs
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 23, 2020, 05:02:22 PM
Says on Sarna the core enabled smaller manufacturers to resume production and retrotech.  I suppose more production isn't a bad thing.  But - if you want to help the Periphery nations the retrotech would come in handy.  Besides pirates, they could always attack the CC like the Magistracy and FWL nation did.

The alliance idea is reasonable, but what would it do?  Focus on Clan tech or new concepts for the IS to balance the fight?  They didn't aim to deliberately develop new tech in canon.

If you're going to have a civil war, maybe have the Periphery ally and attack them when they're weak  With retrotech?  Regulans and Oriente could fight it out, or how about CC and the FWL nation (Andurian?) attacking the Magistracy?

Yeah we were planning already bring the retrotech back much quicker
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 23, 2020, 05:16:47 PM
Better Rifles?

Nah.  They went obsolete for a reason.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 23, 2020, 05:19:33 PM
As this fits in how bout bringing back the LR ans SR DFMs

You mean Rocket Launchers and (SRM) Rocket Launchers?  I just came up the (S)RL-5 and -10, over on the OF, they're going into my next project.  Don't mind if they get used here.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 23, 2020, 06:24:22 PM
Is that what happened to that old tech. When Tak posted our old Samurai Wrath stuff I saw the old tech and couldn't figure out what they did with it.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 23, 2020, 07:49:54 PM
Is that what happened to that old tech. When Tak posted our old Samurai Wrath stuff I saw the old tech and couldn't figure out what they did with it.

The RL concept?  I think they issued errata about it saying it had never been lost, but don't quote me.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 23, 2020, 09:43:00 PM
Is that what happened to that old tech. When Tak posted our old Samurai Wrath stuff I saw the old tech and couldn't figure out what they did with it.

The RL concept?  I think they issued errata about it saying it had never been lost, but don't quote me.

Meant did they turn the Long Range Dead Fire Missiles systems into RL and MRMs?
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 23, 2020, 10:18:28 PM
...From...  Maxtech...?

Maybe, I'm not sure, sorry.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 23, 2020, 10:23:40 PM
No worries was just curious as I couldn't find anything on the forums or sarna
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 23, 2020, 10:43:18 PM
No problem.

Naturally, I am bored as heck.  I started playing MWO again.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 23, 2020, 11:41:29 PM
I finally got around to playing megamek and I'm loving it. So bored but it helps the days go by
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 24, 2020, 12:05:26 AM
Yeah, I should do that too, to brush up on the rules since just before going into quarantine I found somebody to play against here in town on the official forum.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on March 24, 2020, 08:45:33 AM
Is that what happened to that old tech. When Tak posted our old Samurai Wrath stuff I saw the old tech and couldn't figure out what they did with it.

The RL concept?  I think they issued errata about it saying it had never been lost, but don't quote me.

Meant did they turn the Long Range Dead Fire Missiles systems into RL and MRMs?

Dead Fire Missiles became MRMs bud.

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dead-Fire_Missiles

Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 24, 2020, 11:35:11 AM
Bored now.

Considering new tech.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Ice Hellion on March 24, 2020, 04:40:35 PM
Bored now.

Considering new tech.

And?
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 24, 2020, 06:08:06 PM
All depends on how many rabbit holes Takiro wants to jump into.

Got water leaking into one of the rental property basements, so I'll have time to think when I go over tomorrow.  In the meantime, he has to come with a list of stuff he wants to see before the rest of us can make suggestions, most of the obvious stuff I could come up with is in my AU stuff already.  I don't mind if he wants to borrow it, I just don't want to force it on him.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 24, 2020, 08:37:06 PM
Been looking up different metallic alloys I think I got an idea for a new armor type using amorphous metals
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on March 25, 2020, 10:22:32 AM
All depends on how many rabbit holes Takiro wants to jump into.

Got water leaking into one of the rental property basements, so I'll have time to think when I go over tomorrow.  In the meantime, he has to come with a list of stuff he wants to see before the rest of us can make suggestions, most of the obvious stuff I could come up with is in my AU stuff already.  I don't mind if he wants to borrow it, I just don't want to force it on him.

I like to keep an open mind when it comes to this discussion. I am moving slow and it is just after the Truce of Tukayyid as you can see in my current optimization design challenges. What I am asking you all to consider is the more practical side of tech progression like the Blazer for example. This low tech amalgamation of two Large Lasers has long existed but only the recent innovation of Double Heat Sinks and the outbreak of the 3rd Marik Civil War have created the need for their larger deployment. Development of the Streak SRM-4 by the InnerSphere also seems straightforward at this point to me as it really just seems like it is two Streak SRM-2s interlocked plus we have Clan salvage to draw upon for further research. I think the new Martial Alliance could rapidly produce them in 3053 or 3054 at the latest.

These two examples lead me to ask what else do you see in the InnerSphere's near future??



I hope your real life issues resolve
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 25, 2020, 12:50:40 PM
I hope your real life issues resolve

I'm trapped at home with four kids, two of them special needs (ADHD, ODD, etc.).  Until I go back to work, that ain't happening.

So, thus far we have mention of larger Streak launchers, a mid-size AC, two new engine concepts (one I would suggest for small craft, like my FighterShip concept), better pulse lasers, more blazers and flamers, DFM-launchers, a new armor concept.

I have homebrew tech here on the forum you could look up you could use - why not post something over at the OF asking for suggestions?  God knows everybody is probably also bored as heck.

Just as a preliminary;

1.5 t/2 missiles; following the progression gets you an 8-P for 6 tons and 10-P for 7.5.  I'd be leery of anything bigger, but you might go one more for 9 tons.

AC/15 and some other stuff; https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=12121.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=12121.0)




Horizontally Mounted Engines - A fundamental reordering of the BattleMech's interior on par with the Torso Mounted Cockpit was considered possible but unwarranted by designers whose maintenance and cost issues would be much more than normal.

Dual Fusion Engines - Building on the Horizontal Mounts this innovation allows BattleMechs to utilize two Engines each spaced out over the torsos working as one. Two 200 Fusion Engines would equal a 400 and of course would need a four ton gyro in order to balance things out. [Granted this is far off and needs work]

Enhanced Pulse Lasers - somehow improve the ranges on InnerSphere models

Large, Medium, and Small Flamers -
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 25, 2020, 02:43:36 PM
The Horizontally Mounted Engines is a unique and innovative idea. Especially as we know 7 is the easiest and most common roll for 2d6 it puts your squishy parts in less protected but less able to be hit areas.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 25, 2020, 02:45:08 PM
So we have Endo-Steel less weight more space, what about the opposite. Reinforced Structure more weight again more space but instead it allows say 125% armor over traditional structure capacity. So raises IS by 25% and therefore allows greater armor weight.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on March 28, 2020, 01:04:19 PM
So, lets look at technical specs for the 2 Streak SRM-2s and compare their operation to the 'future' Streak SRM-4.

                2 Streak SRM-2s       Streak SRM-4
Heat                   4                              3
Damage              8                              8
Max Range          9                              9
Tons                   3                              3
Criticals              2                              1
Ammo Rounds    25                            25
Cost (Unloaded)  30k                          90k
BV2                    60                            59

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM-2
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Streak_SRM-4

We save one heat from operation of the singular Streak SRM-4 and one critical space while increasing the cost by three times! Maybe the price is what scared away potential innovators as performance of these systems seems identical especially if you 'interlock' the Streak SRM-2 firing controls. Now in canon the Streak SRM-4 isn't available till 3058 following the examination of large amounts of Clan salvage by the Draconis Combine.

I think it is smart to set their discovery forward by a few years and to have a separate date then the Streak SRM-6 but is that plausible? However, for the Clans this middle weight Streak SRM system was perfected in 2826 along with its larger rack Streak SRM-6. There was a prototype system used during Operation Klondike which curiously had drawbacks as well.


While searching for information on this subject I also stumbled upon larger SRM racks apparently declared fanon if folks would like to discuss their possible inclusion.

https://battletechfanon.fandom.com/wiki/SRM-8
https://battletechfanon.fandom.com/wiki/SRM-10
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 28, 2020, 03:17:09 PM
While on the one hand I love fan tech on the the other I'd like to suggest staying away really from completely new technology as there is no way to quantify it compared to canon things. Expediting things or changing it so clan tech can be produced by IS is one thing. Once we go down the route of completely new tech then whats next aliens?
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Ice Hellion on March 29, 2020, 04:11:12 PM
So, lets look at technical specs for the 2 Streak SRM-2s and compare their operation to the 'future' Streak SRM-4.

Let's go further and make this for the 3rd Streak System too but for reading sake, I will not look at what is obviously the same (i.e. no damage, range)

                                 3 Streak SRM-2   Streak SRM-6
Heat                           6                4
Tons                                   4.5        4.5
Criticals                                3           2
Ammo rounds                      16.67      15
Cost (unloaded) in K C-Bills   45            120
BV 2                          90              89

The Streak SRM-6 is more heat efficient and compact but has less endurance and cost way more (almost thrice as much).

However one needs to add the fact that having to hit once, twice or thrice is not the same and that therefore the damage is likely to differ.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on March 30, 2020, 02:35:03 AM
What do you think about simply 'interlocking' those Streak SRM2s? I believe it is mentioned in Tactical Handbook and perhaps Maximum Tech as well.

Tactical Handbook - BattleTechWiki
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tactical_Handbook


Could it be the breakthrough for the larger racks is something in common they have?
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Ice Hellion on March 30, 2020, 03:45:55 PM
What do you think about simply 'interlocking' those Streak SRM2s? I believe it is mentioned in Tactical Handbook and perhaps Maximum Tech as well.

Tactical Handbook - BattleTechWiki
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tactical_Handbook


Could it be the breakthrough for the larger racks is something in common they have?

You just have a +1 to-hit modifier for each Streak launcher used in an interlocked barrage (and the other to-hit modifiers too obviously).
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 31, 2020, 02:56:00 PM
Just Zoom talking with Tak, came up with idea of Myomer Web Launcher, launches web that causes a 'Mech to be immobilized. Would need to think of something to use as a strength check to break out though
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Ice Hellion on March 31, 2020, 04:39:47 PM
Just Zoom talking with Tak, came up with idea of Myomer Web Launcher, launches web that causes a 'Mech to be immobilized. Would need to think of something to use as a strength check to break out though

Someone saw too many Spiderman movies.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 31, 2020, 07:37:29 PM
Just Zoom talking with Tak, came up with idea of Myomer Web Launcher, launches web that causes a 'Mech to be immobilized. Would need to think of something to use as a strength check to break out though

Someone saw too many Spiderman movies.

Haha actually was talking about a Merc unit that used all spider mechs, Spider, Venom and Tarantula its what made me think of it.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 31, 2020, 07:48:02 PM
Ah.  Why not a bolo?  Aren't there rules for that already?
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on March 31, 2020, 08:09:17 PM
Not sure about the bolo, I know there is alot of melee weapons in the dark age future. I'd have to check them  out.

The Myomer Web is an out of the box concept certainly.

Reminds me of the far future weapon I thought of for the Imperium long ago, Ion Projection Canon (IPC). Stop a mech without damaging it per say...
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on March 31, 2020, 11:46:28 PM
Not sure about the bolo, I know there is alot of melee weapons in the dark age future. I'd have to check them  out.

The Myomer Web is an out of the box concept certainly.

Reminds me of the far future weapon I thought of for the Imperium long ago, Ion Projection Canon (IPC). Stop a mech without damaging it per say...

WAY out of the box.  Clearly I have been too cautious.  I shall reconsider, perhaps re-read Free TaiwSt. Ives.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on March 31, 2020, 11:57:19 PM
I think I found something that we could use for rules for the bolo/web idea the chain whip

Quote
When a 'Mech's leg is hit by the Chain Whip, the attacker can try to pull its opponent off balance by making a second to-hit roll. If the attacker has TSM, they receive a -2 bonus on the roll. If this attack roll is successful the Whip does no damage but the targeted 'Mech must make a piloting skill roll with a +3 modifier to avoid falling.

I'd say that would be similar if this hits legs but if hits torso/arms would have a + to weapon firing from weapons in location. I'd say range is not the greatest like 1-2 3-4 and 5 being long
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on April 01, 2020, 01:43:42 PM
W.E.B. Deployment system

From the minds of the New Avalon Institute of Science and the surviving members of the defunct Team Banzi comes the Waylay Entanglement Bomb or more commonly called W.E.B.. Created from an experiment gone wrong as scientists were working on a variant of the triple strength myomer recipe hoping to gain the quadruple strength the original design allowed for. Instead what the team came up with is a gelatinous mass that when exposed to air after 10 secs turns into an extremely sticky substance that nearly impossible to remove without extreme heat and cold temperatures. Deciding to experiment with weaponizing the substance has provided mixed results. Ultimately finding three different methods to deploy on the battlefield. First was as bombs that could be deployed from both conventional and aerospace forces, second was a mines and third was the W.E.B. cannon. Firing a quarter ton mass of goo at a moving target is difficult endeavor for any pilot, so what the designers have came up with is a thin silicon material covering the glob fired with compressed air.

Game Rules:
Ranges 1 / 2 / 3
If weapon hits legs Pilot must make piloting skill roll +2 or fall on a success 'Mech remains standing but walking speed reduced by 2. If arms or torsos are hit weapons located in area are at a +2 to hit. Substance will remove itself if mech goes over heat by 10 or exposed to extreme heat or cold directly as in the case of flamers or coolants.

Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on April 06, 2020, 01:51:54 PM
So, I had a thought that you could make a BA based off the Tortoise II, and make it rocket propelled with Jump Jets.

Fast forward the morning after, and Takiro's comment about Macross hover tanks got me thinking.  The concept might be a bit far-out for my own AU, but why not for SH?

So, it will take some fiddling, but I think I can come up with a set of construction rules for both wheeled and tracked (with a second wheeled/tracked 'mule' on a trailer hook to pull extra-heavy trailers - sort of a 'Centaur' concept), as well as hover units.  I don't have time, as all four kids are just getting introduced to distance learning and I'm helping, but it might fit the SH setting better than mine.

Introducing turning radius restrictions would be required, I'm afraid, and if 'hovermechs' are to become a thing,we might be best off to restrict them to the current max of 50 tons.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on April 08, 2020, 02:54:23 PM
Interesting ideas Red Pins. I think these alternate motive systems may have a place in Salient Horizons in some far future.

Something that has more relevance in the near future is the FWLM design approach with NARC Beacons and smaller LRM launchers. Do you guys thin it is plausible and worth the effort? Bradshaw and I have had some discussion on the amount of missiles that hit with larger racks versus those that hit with the smaller racks. Mathematical proof based on the existing rule set is what I am really looking for but opinions are welcomed too!
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Ice Hellion on April 08, 2020, 03:57:22 PM
Interesting ideas Red Pins. I think these alternate motive systems may have a place in Salient Horizons in some far future.

Something that has more relevance in the near future is the FWLM design approach with NARC Beacons and smaller LRM launchers. Do you guys thin it is plausible and worth the effort? Bradshaw and I have had some discussion on the amount of missiles that hit with larger racks versus those that hit with the smaller racks. Mathematical proof based on the existing rule set is what I am really looking for but opinions are welcomed too!

This is what I have been working on on my free side since the first time you asked it in the Cicada challenge.
So far, I have done LRM-5, LRM-10/2 LRM-5 without and with Narc.
I am still struggling with the LRM-15/3 LRM-5 table (my numbers don't add but I can't find where I am missing something).
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on April 08, 2020, 09:54:12 PM
Time for fun with Math

Missile Size5      10      15      20Common Denominator70                 
Missile Size Tons2      5      7      10# of systems35      12      10      7
Average Roll 7 Damage3      6      9      12Total Damage105      72      90      84
Average Roll 7 with NARC Damage4      8      12      16Total Damage w/NARC140      96      120      112
Missile Size2      4      6            Common Denominator6                       
Missile Size Tons1      2      3            # of systems6      3      2           
Average Roll 7 Damage1      2      4            Total Damage6      6      8           
Average Roll 7 with NARC Damage2      3      5            Total Damage w/NARC12      9      10           

So based off this analysis the 5 and 15 are both very good for the NARC or Artemis the 10 and 20 kinda suck. Though they are all consistently 33% more effective with NARC then without.

For SRM 2 is best but not so bad with 6 and the 4 sucks and for improvements its a remarkable decline for the SRMs 200% more damage for the 2 50% more for the 4 and only 25% better with the 6.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Ice Hellion on April 09, 2020, 01:04:53 AM
Time for fun with Math

I was going for the full probability with all the options.
I will post my results later today.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on April 09, 2020, 04:05:44 AM
Math? Ugh.

Some quick and dirty work on the wheeled BA trailer is leading to this;

Ex. A 750 kg suit with 5 ground movement can pull a 2.5 ton trailer at ground speed of 2 hexes.(5-(2500/750) =5-3 (rounding down)=2 Ground speed.
     They suit has 4 jj;  (suit mass x jump = 750 kg x 4=3000).  The suit can pull a 2.5 ton trailer at a ground speed of 3 hexes if it uses both movement types to 'Sprint'.

Note; without the trailer, this BA could 'Sprint' at a top speed of 9 hexes

I have an idea for a 'Mule' that could raise that, basically a pair of puller wheels added between BA and trailer.  A separate vehicle, it would have a fuel cell if vees can use them.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Red Pins on April 09, 2020, 11:38:57 AM
Also, this;

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=68851.0;topicseen#top (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=68851.0;topicseen#top)
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on April 09, 2020, 04:12:40 PM
Thanks for the LRM numbers Bradshaw, let's see what Ice has to say before drawing conclusions.

For some real rough sledding and logistics augmentation I am surprised you didn't scale up Mech wagons. Would certainly help keep a unit supplied in battle if you could carry X amount of tons of supplies this way.

Combat landers is certainly interesting Red Pins and Boilerman has some real good ideas.  I have to post my Small Craft ideas but doing the same with aerospace frames is a neat concept.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Ice Hellion on April 09, 2020, 04:42:10 PM
I still couldn't find the solution for the 3 LRM-5 and above but here are my first results.

LRM-5      
Damage   Probability without   Probability with
1         2,78 %          0,00 %
2         13,89 %         2,78 %
3         55,56 %         38,89 %
4         19,44 %         30,56 %
5         8,33 %         27,78 %


LRM-10                                    2 LRM-5      
Damage   Probability without   Probability with   Damage   Probability without   Probability with
3         8,33 %         0,00 %         2      0,08 %         0,00 %
4         8,33 %         2,78 %         3      0,77 %         0,00 %
6         55,56 %         38,89 %         4      5,02 %         0,08 %
8         19,44 %         30,56 %         5      16,51 %         2,16 %
10         8,33 %         27,78 %         6      36,73 %         16,82 %
                                 7      23,92 %         25,31 %
                                 8      13,04 %         30,94 %
                                 9      3,24 %         16,98 %
                                 10      0,69 %         7,72 %
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Ice Hellion on April 09, 2020, 04:43:37 PM
If anyone knows how to easily export from a spreadsheet file to here, I would be glad to hear it.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on April 09, 2020, 06:03:08 PM
PM me your email address and I'll send you a sample of how to do it. Can we change the rules to allow excel sheets? I mean we allow docx files and bunch of others already
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on August 13, 2021, 04:05:11 PM
Salient Horizons Level 3 Tech
   Thanks to our optimization contests and general discussions I’ve thought of a few new weapon systems which could be in development throughout the InnerSphere. Bare in mind that these are EXPERIMENTAL (Level 3) and should not be used in our contests unless otherwise noted.

Small Blazers
      Product Information
Type: Energy (Direct-Fire)
Tech Base: InnerSphere Level 3
Year Availability: 3053 (Free Worlds League)
      Tech Specs
Heat: 2
Damage: 5
Minimum: n/a
Short Range: 1
Medium Range: 2
Long Range: 3
Tons: 1
Critical Slots: 2
Ammo Per Ton: n/a
Cost (unloaded): 22,500 C-bills
Ammo Cost (per Ton): n/a
Battle Value: 15?
      Details
Binary Laser Cannons continued to develop throughout the 3rd Marik Civil War where the original Large Blazers were eventually joined by their smaller brethern. Firepower matches the Clan ER Small but it is twice as large and only can hit at very close ranges.

Medium Blazers
      Product Information
Type: Energy (Direct-Fire)
Tech Base: InnerSphere Level 3
Year Availability: 3053 (Free Worlds League)
      Tech Specs
Heat: 6
Damage: 8
Minimum: n/a
Short Range: 1-3
Medium Range: 4-6
Long Range: 7-9
Tons: 1.5
Critical Slots: 2
Ammo Per Ton: n/a
Cost (unloaded): 80,000 C-bills
Ammo Cost (per Ton): n/a
Battle Value: 90?
      Details
Large Blazers were first unleashed during the 3rd Marik Civil War after the lostech renaissance which swept the InnerSphere supplied an abundant amount of Double Heat Sinks to the FWLM. Their deployment sparked the development of lesser binary laser cannons in line with existing laser weaponry. Several factions within the Free Worlds League have begun to test Medium Blazers which outperforms the Clan ER Medium Laser in terms of firepower. The drawbacks are a weapon that produces more heat, has less range, is twice as bulky, and weights slightly more than the advanced Clan weapon.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Bradshaw on August 13, 2021, 04:42:17 PM
Basically making Blazers into IS version of heavy lasers
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: masterarminas on August 13, 2021, 10:24:21 PM
I'd make the second one at least 2 tons . . . maybe even 3.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on August 13, 2021, 10:29:48 PM
I could see two tons. The Blazer had a one ton dip out of ten. It is possible that the Medium version would be two tons like the Small is 1.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: fabulousorcboy on August 16, 2021, 06:09:31 PM
Nah, I'm with Takiro on the original 1.5t for the "Medium Blazer".  I get that it's effectively a shorter-ranged large laser with less heat, but conversely it's a less efficient linked-fire medium laser.  And at the range bracket, it's always going to be competing with the medium laser, not with the large.  Compare 3xML with 2xMedBlazer at 1.5 tons each --> 9 heat and 15 damage, vs 12 heat and 16 damage.  That's comparable but the classic Medium Lasers are still more efficient, even though the "Medium Blazers" might deal sliiiiightly more damage.  But if you up the weight of the "Medium Blazers" to 2t each, they become CLEARLY inferior (same heat, -2 damage compared to pair of ML, +1 crit more than pair of ML) and no military worth their salt would waste their time.

I would also drop the "Small Blazer" to just one crit (as opposed to reducing the weight to 3/4 ton or some other fraction).  That would make it an interesting choice among the 1ton, 1crit options: you could take a SPL (anti-infantry), or a medium laser, or a flamer (for war crimes), or a TAG... or the Small Blazer for some medium laser punch at slightly lower heat...but much shorter range.

As for battle value, at a first approximation the Blazer is x1.8 the battle value of the regular energy weapon.  So the "medium blazer" could be 76 BV, and the "small blazer" is 16 BV.  That makes them comparable in cost to clan heavy lasers, despite being clearly less effective, so is 'fair' without being obviously under-costed.
Title: Re: Alternate Technological Progression
Post by: Takiro on August 16, 2021, 08:35:38 PM
Interesting thoughts fabulousorcboy. I just took the Large Laser and compared it to the Blazer basically downsizing that to comparable Medium Laser and Small Laser versions. I'll have to think it over a bit more.