OBT Forum
General BattleTech => Alternate Universe => Salient Horizon => Topic started by: Takiro on February 09, 2020, 07:07:58 PM
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Good evening, the Clan invaders seem to be abiding by the Truce of Tukayyid but that will last for only 15 years and they will return to finish what they started. The conquest of the entire Republic on their way to Terra. What I've gathered you here for today is an all out strategy session to determine how to best defend our remaining 7 worlds. (Tukayyid, Ueda, Dehgolan, Karbala, Grumium, Al Hillah, Orestes) Our current lack of resources can thankfully be overcome by ample aid from our allies especially if we have a viable defense plan in place by May 3067. We also have a refugee crisis to resolve as those who were lucky enough escaped here and must be housed.
Options?
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I'd love to see BattleMech regiment per world by 3067 which I don't think is impossible. These would be lynch pin formations which would be augmented by Planetary Militias composed of conventional forces (Armor, VTOLs, Infantry, etc.) which depending on the terrain of their homeworlds be further strengthen by hardened defenses.
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What would stop the clans especially wolf from pulling off what they did in canon going around heavily defended worlds for lesser ones and coming back later to take them out or like the germans with the Maginot Line
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You need Pocket WarShips equipped with capital missile launchers loaded with lotsa nukes to destroy the Clan forces before they can get off their Jumpships/Warships. That is all.
If not that, overwhelm with Aerospace and destroy their DropShips before they make planetfall. It's easier to crack those eggs while they are in space.
There is no mercy for the Clans. None whatsoever.
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If the Rasalhague rump state can create a heavily defended hedgehog or armed pocket that the Wolves want to avoid rather than fight I think that is what we absolutely need to create here. Think of a 'Wolcott' position here if the Clans even manage to break out somewhere. It could be valuable staging area to strike at their own forward bases.
Abele do you think the creation of such a 'small' navy is possible by 3067? Sure their is plenty of shipping going through the area which could justify the creation of dockyards for jumpships and drop ships but that is still quite an undertaking. How effective would it be?
And let me say going WMD is going to open up the pandora's box of retaliation with warship ortillery from the Clans. Perhaps it could start them down the road of the Mongol Doctrine or worse.
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Given how Tyra Miraborg's Shilone damaged the Dire Wolf and killed the ilKhan, I think Rasalhague needs to commit extra resources to aerospace assets, prioritising fighter production over 'Mechs (not exclusively) and looking at options to increase their effectiveness without resorting to nuclear weapons. Aerospace conflict is one area where the Inner Sphere is less disadvantaged in terms of skill and technology, after all.
Aerospace carrier dropships to picket jump-points will be important, perhaps escorted by assault dropships, which presents a starting point for building up to pocket warships and perhaps full warships if they're ever affordable.
Assuming 14 pickets (zenith and nadir in all seven systems) and the planet's own defense force, plus forces that are available to rotate and replace pickets. Assuming a flight of 6 fighters on each picket, a Leopard CV escorted by one or two Avengers would be sufficient for this role. I'd also recommend a full 36 fighter wing per planet, with a second wing to provide the pickets and act as a reserve to make up for any fighters or pilots unavailable in the planetary based-wing. This would require seven short aero-regiments of 72 fighters each (as opposed to the 108 of a full regiment). Full regiments would clearly be preferable (in which case two planet-based wings would be feasible) but may not be attainable in the timescale.
So a FRR force of 504 aerospace fighters, 21 Leopard CVs (14 pickets and 50% reserve) and 28 Avengers (4 in each system) would provide a solid first line of defense, behind which the ground-based units (which are certainly needed) operate.
This could then be expanded to potentially a further 252 aerospace fighters. It may be worth looking at battle armor, shuttles and parent dropships as further tactic against weapons but this would require building up an effectively entirely new arm of armoured space marines, so this would fall into the second phase.
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Also given the nomadic lifestyle that many Rasalhague residents have had to endure recently such a naval buildup does sort of make sense.
Still it would have to rely on ComStar for a massive influx of technology and funding. This follows canon sure and given increased commitments from AFFC and DCMS allies it is possible I suppose.
Perhaps it's more of a Space Coast Guard than a true navy with warships and their support vessels.
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Space combat is often overlooked in BT just because everyone loves the giant robots but doesn't want to deal with other things. Space mines I know are in canon but they could make a comeback as well for defenses at the zenith and nadir jump points.
15 years is more than enough time for ComStar/FRR and Houses to start up Assault Dropship production. Warships as well especially if there is no ComStar/WoB interference like in Canon. In Canon the Fox should have been available in time for Tukayyid but didn't come out until 58 due to Comstar interference.
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What forces are available? How many people are still in the FRR?
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Those are great questions Ice.
1. Objective Raids (3054) and Field Manual: ComStar (3062) has the Rasalhague Kungsarme reduced from its pre-invasion height of 15 Mech Regiments to just 4 Mech regiments which really doesn't change over eight years. Technically there is a small increase of a battalion I believe in canon. It accounts for raiding losses in the occupation zone which would still occur here. However, in this setting we have better equipment availability thanks to a closer alliance of InnerSphere powers.
2. I would estimate 14 billion at the most but I could be wrong. Orestes seems to have over 6 billion which is surprising for a border world where I'd expect 2 billion. Refugees are said to be pretty large but no way that accounts for 4 billion people. However there was a full year for people to move away from the invaders as the Clans returned home to elect Ulric after the death of Leo Showers. Tukayyid is described as agricultural and it says somewhere its population was evacuated by ComStar prior to the battle. I'll have to look up stats for Ueda, Dehgolan, Karbala, Grumium, and Al Hillah.
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Those are great questions Ice.
1. Objective Raids (3054) and Field Manual: ComStar (3062) has the Rasalhague Kungsarme reduced from its pre-invasion height of 15 Mech Regiments to just 4 Mech regiments which really doesn't change over eight years. Technically there is a small increase of a battalion I believe in canon. It accounts for raiding losses in the occupation zone which would still occur here. However, in this setting we have better equipment availability thanks to a closer alliance of InnerSphere powers.
What about the rest?
See https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=1927
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Nice Ice, very appropriate link! I'll have to count convectional forces in 3067 (FM Updates, etc.) too
Looked on sarna.net for the population numbers last night and here is what I found.
Tukayyid - 3,700,000
Dehgolan - ?
Ueda - ?
Karbala - 1,841,000,000 (3025)*
Grumium - 350,000,000
Al Hillah - ?
Orestes - 6,311,000,000
I'll have to poke around for more information if there is any. Fluff wise there is talk about refugees as I stated before displacing natives - taking jobs and what not. Going by the names of the planets they appear to be Islamic or Azami in nature - could this be why the natives are so restless? Rasalhagians (Swedish, Norwegian, Danes, plus), Draconis (Japanese), and Lyrans (Germans plus more) would be a very different ethnic mix in the region.
A word on Militia numbers, I generally go by Hot Spots (FASA 1679) for my numbers on Planetary Militias or rather Planetary Garrisons as it refers to them (pg 18-20). If we all agree that each of these seven worlds would fall into the Large Planetary Garrison then each would have approximately 1 battalion of Mechs, 1 battalion of armor, probably a regiment of infantry (foot or mechanized most likely with varying arms), 3025 Tech Level, and I'd say Good Equipment rating (no random damage at least after a year or so).
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Tukayyid - named for Iraqi city, settled by the Azami sometime during the 25th century
Dehgolan - named for Middle Eastern city (Kurdish, Iran?), settled after the first Exodus from Terra prior to 2319, part of the Tamar Pact
Ueda - named for a Japanese city, colonized late during the Star League era before 2750, part of the Lyran Commonwealth
Karbala - named for Iraqi city, settled after the first Exodus from Terra prior to 2319, part of the Tamar Pact
Grumium - another name for the star Xi Draconis in the Draco constellation, settled after the first Exodus from Terra prior to 2319, part of the Tamar Pact
Al Hillah - named for Iraqi city, settled after the first Exodus from Terra prior to 2341, part of the Tamar Pact
Orestes - named for Greek hero, settled after the first Exodus from Terra prior to 2341, part of the Tamar Pact
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What would you guys think about establishing a new Rasalhague unit type other than the Drakons, Freeman, Kavaleri, and Hussars which would be entirely defensively minded?
Alternatively, what if we broke the left overs of the Kungsarme into battalions rather than regiments? This might be a more ideal operational size given the overall strength and production limitations which they may face right now.
Finally for a historical example of a defense strategy what of Finland before the 2nd World War who successful staved off Soviet invasion??
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What would you guys think about establishing a new Rasalhague unit type other than the Drakons, Freeman, Kavaleri, and Hussars which would be entirely defensively minded?
I do agree. I could see something more combined-arms oriented.
Alternatively, what if we broke the left overs of the Kungsarme into battalions rather than regiments? This might be a more ideal operational size given the overall strength and production limitations which they may face right now.
They don't have much space left, they therefore need to defend it at all cost (which means bigger units). On the other hand, smaller units mean that the Clans would bring smaller units (rules of engagement)...
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If they are still bind by these.
Finally for a historical example of a defense strategy what of Finland before the 2nd World War who successful staved off Soviet invasion??
Not sure the context would be the same. To see what I mean, check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War#Finnish_order_of_battle
I will try to think of another historical example.
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Another prospect would be artillery. Cheaper than battlemechs, less mobile - but in a stand or die situation who cares about that - and something that most of the Clans don't use. Admittedly Clan Wolf is the exception.
Towed guns would be easiest, but the SLDF and HAF had a significant range of self-propelled guns and artillery missile launchers, several of which had copies floating around. At a minimum, some arm-twisting on ComStar could yield data on the Chaparral, Padilla and Marksman.
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Good point drak, I know panzerfaust went heavy in that direction with his excellent fanfic, Clover Spear - The Story of the '56 War. I do think the other aspect he is missing there is aerospace support (augmenting this arm which is an InnerSphere advantage is important too) and to be absolutely frank he was pushing an offensive against the Clan Occupation Zone not a defensive.
Reading up on the Winter War between Finland and the Soviet Union there doesn't seem to be any great defensive strategy employed just a number of factors which swung Finland's way. Interesting read on the Sissi (Finnish Light Infantry) though;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissi_(Finnish_light_infantry)
What role do you think MIMIR can play here as part of the Occupation Zone resistance?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mimir
I think we should have one overall focus in the successful defense of the Republic, rescue of Ragnar Magnusson. Especially before his interaction with the Ghost Bears which cements their hold over Rasalhague.
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Intelligence at this point is dealing with subversive people within the refugees. A lot of pissed off civilians at this point. I doubt anything really organized is remaining of FRR government. A puppet state at best with Comstar calling the shots. Causing friction because of this as well. Its basically a 7 planet DMZ at this point.
In regards to their military. I figure Tukayyid is strictly policed by Comstar and the other 6 have a Battalion with support personal each. I see maybe something odd like an agreement with OWA for some Wings of Aerospace for Comstar assistance and trade. Just to get them somehow involved in politics in the IS.
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Possible structure looking at both FRR and Finland Military structure
Jaeger Regiment
Recon Company
1st Jaeger Battalion
1st Jaeger Company
2nd Jaeger Company
3rd Jaeger Company
2nd Jaeger Battalion
4th Jaeger Company
5th Jaeger Company
6th Jaeger Company
3rd Jaeger Battalion
7th Jaeger Company
8th Jaeger Company
9th Jaeger Company
BattleMech Battalion
1st Drakon Company
1st Hussar Company
1st Kavalleri Company
1st Infantry Regiment
1st Battalion Foot
2nd Battlaion Foot
3rd Battalion Canine Foot
2nd Infantry Regiment
1st Battalion Mechanized
2nd Battalion Mechanized
3rd Battalion Jump
Engineer battalion
1st Engineer company
Technical company
Artillery Regiment
Mortar Battalion (note that this unit is infantry, not artillery per se)
1st Artillery Battery
2nd Artillery battery
Forward Observation and Signal Battery
Signal Battalion
HQ company
1st Signals company
2nd Signals company
Supply battalion
Supply Company
Truck Company
MP Company
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With only 7 worlds, the Free Rasalhague Republic has no strategic depth.
With 4 BattleMech regiments (discounting additional forces and militia), it lacks the might to resist any invasion by a foreign power, even more the Clans.
It only has two options : buy time on space then land to allow the cavalry to come or become such a potential nuisance that no one will try to come along.
Both are a bit of the same tactics with the use of heavily fortified positions but the second one could be more trying to impress or saying and being ready to use weapons of mass destruction and turning every single man and woman in a militia fighter (the Clans are not prepared to deal with that).
For space, Aerospace Fighters, mines and pocket WarShips are the way to go. On ground, artillery, Aerospace Fighters, hidden units (denying the fight for the first option), mines, guerrilla, lines after lines of defence positions forcing the Clans to lose one Warrior after another.
While looking for inspiration, I found this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_defense or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flypaper_theory_(strategy)
Meanwhile, Pertra opertatives could stage raids on other planets to disturb the arrival of supplies or to try to raise people against their new owners.
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Interesting Bradshaw, I did have two Periphery Powers in mind to join the new Martial Alliance and one was the Outworlds Alliance. I could see their aerospace arm being valued teachers for the InnerSphere militaries helping them enhance their capabilities versus the Clans.
I was thinking of an LCT model for the FRR defense with a Mech battalion, armor regiment (is this your Jaeger battalions?), and perhaps two infantry regiments. I have to look in FM ComStar for their supporting canon conventional forces.
Interesting Ice Hellion. Earlier development of Pocket Warships could be prioritized by the InnerSphere powers. I'll have to read up on your inspiration in detail, thanks!
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Yes Jaegers were vehicle battalions
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have to look in FM ComStar for their supporting canon conventional forces.
I looked at it and they say that during Clan Invasion, the KungsArmé went from 206 Regiments to 26.
Then I did the maths and split among 6 units of each sort, the KungsArmé has:
- 4 Regiments of BattleMechs,
- 1 Regiment and 1 Company of Aerospace Fighters,
- 4 Regiments and 1 Company of Armour,
- 6 Regiments and 1 Battalion of Infantry.
All this split on 7 worlds (perhaps only 6 since ComStar might be garrisoning Tukkayid).
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I looked at it and they say that during Clan Invasion, the KungsArmé went from 206 Regiments to 26.
Then I did the maths and split among 6 units of each sort, the KungsArmé has:
- 4 Regiments of BattleMechs,
- 1 Regiment and 1 Company of Aerospace Fighters,
- 4 Regiments and 1 Company of Armour,
- 6 Regiments and 1 Battalion of Infantry.
All this split on 7 worlds (perhaps only 6 since ComStar might be garrisoning Tukkayid).
Which means we are missing 11 Regiments. Are they militia units, not worth of being mentioned? Were the report and the T0&E written at different times?
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Interesting Ice Hellion. Earlier development of Pocket Warships could be prioritized by the InnerSphere powers. I'll have to read up on your inspiration in detail, thanks!
But would the Free Rasalhague Republic have the shipyards to do it? Or will it have to rely on ComStar or others?
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I think the Republic would have to rely on others to a large degree Ice.
Your research checks out from the Field Manuals with only the Black Outlaws being an oversight in the mercenary department.
3rd Drakons (2 BattleMech battalions – Veteran/Fanatical)
Holy Valkyries (Aerospace company – Regular/Fanatical)
1st Ueda Cavaliers (Armor battalion – Regular/Reliable)
3rd Ueda Infantry (Infantry regiment – Regular/Reliable)
2nd Freemen (BattleMech regiment – Veteran/Fanatical)
Headhunters (Aerospace wing – Veteran/Fanatical)
2nd Dehgolan Light Armor (Armor regiment – Regular/Reliable)
7th Dehgolan Militia (Infantry regiment – Regular/Reliable)
3rd Hussars (2 BattleMech battalions – Veteran/Fanatical)
3rd Hussars Aerospace (Aerospace wing – Veteran/Reliable)
1st Gumium Armored Militia (2 Armor battalions – Green/Reliable)
3rd Grumium Mechanized Infantry (Infantry Regiment – Veteran/Fanatical)
2nd Kavalleri (BattleMech battalion – Veteran/Fanatical)
Delta Darts (Aerospace company – Regular/Fanatical)
2nd Karbala Heavy Armor (Armor regiment – Regular/Reliable)
2nd Kavalleri Infantry (2 Infantry regiments – Veteran/Fanatical)
4th Kavalleri (BattleMech regiment – Regular/ Questionable)
4th Kavalleri Aerospace (Aerospace Company – Regular/Questionable)
1st Al Hillah Lancers (Armor regiment – Green/Reliable)
3rd Al Hillah Assault Infantry (Infantry regiment – Green/Reliable)
1st Tyr (BattleMech battalion – Elite/Fanatical)
1st Orestes Lancers (Aerospace company – Veteran/Fanatical)
4th Orestes Armor (Armor company – Regular/Reliable)
2nd Orestes Motorized Infantry (Infantry battalion – Veteran/Reliable)
Black Outlaws (BattleMech battalion)
Totals
4 BattlMech regiments and 1 battalion
3 Aerospace wings and 1 company
5 Armor regiments and 1 company
6 Infantry regiments and 1 battalion
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I think the Republic would have to rely on others to a large degree Ice.
Your research checks out from the Field Manuals with only the Black Outlaws being an oversight in the mercenary department.
I think they would have to do so on more than a large degree.
You took the same list as I did but I didn't look in other books and not in the mercenary ones (after all, the people of the Free Rasalhague disliked them :P).
Still, this left us with quite a few unknown regiments.
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Again with the thread necro, but I think what FRR did in canon makes just as much sense in this situation. The military scenario is dire and effectively unwinnable -- pocket warships are probably the best of a lot of bad options. One political solution is thus to unify with the Bears and weaken the Clan alliance by turning one of the major Clans into an Inner Sphere nation. The other three options are re-unification with the Combine (probably not feasible), the FedCom (not sure that the FedCom would want the aggravation), or ComStar, which is the de facto situation.
If FRR is effectively part of ComStar (as a protectorate or satellite), then they also have all the resources of Terra to draw from, including the massive Titan Shipyards, the Mars shipyards, and potentially even rebuilt New Earth shipyards -- isn't one of Takiro's canon ComStar characters the Precentor of New Earth? Not to mention the Kungsarme would have the ComGuard backing them up on-world. So if ComStar is supplying the regiments, and the aerospace flights, as well as the pocket warships -- and ComStar retains Terra throughout the entire Truce period (meaning, no Wobbly takeover or Case White), then this is actually doable.
You can even use some Jihad Blake designs, like the Tiamat. With a 15-year truce, no need to develop a drone CASPAR system, and with a slightly accelerated timeline, you could have Tiamats with Naval C3 ready to beat down the antiquated (and paper-thin armor) of a Clan warship fleet. Surprise, Clanner! 8) 8) 8)
Even if it's "only" a whole mess of Dragaus, those assault Dropships have insane thrust and really nasty firepower. I'd pit a few squads of Naval-C3 Dragaus against stars of Clan Omnifighters every day of the week, and twice on Sundays. And used in packs, they'd blow through most Clan warships as well. Soyuz and Lola classes would be hurting, badly.
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I am actually going with a fourth option here, a protectorate of the Martial Alliance. This anti-Clan alliance (link below) will be the Second Star League of this setting which is more like NATO than a Pan-Spheric Empire.
https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=3868.0
I kind of picture this rump state as a 'Free France' with many partisans working behind the lines to destablize the invaders. The seven world Holdfast will have a major ComStar presence but I can't see any other realm trying to absorb it at the moment.
I'd like to include a story about the Elected Prince coming up for election in 3054 which is right around the corner. In canon it seemed like the two term limit eluded to in 20 Year Update (page 46-47) was simply ignored by Haakon Magnusson until he stepped down in 3061. This never sat quite right to me. Yes, it was a stunning invasion which dramatically altered the Republic but picking a new leader to go forward in this new environment seems more vital now more than ever.
I think any Ragnar candidacy would be a no go at this time with the Clans being so new but perhaps it is a way for Haakon to stay in power as a Regent for his captured son. That I guess I could see. Christian Månsdottir is another intriguing candidate although I am not sure when he was rescued by the Wolf Dragoons 7th Kommando? Tor Miraborg is interesting as well but seems to be living in the Clan OZ at this time. Any other canon candidates I am missing?
We could also make someone up with a good story. A Sorenson who was the former ruling family of Rasalhague under Kurita?? A successful anti-Clan rebel???
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Sarna says that Tor Miraborg returned to the FRR in 3057 after the Refusal War, along with the Wolf-in-Exiles. Until then he'd have been in the Wolf Occupation Zone.
Why not just accelerate the regency of Christian Maansdottir? If the Wolfs Dragoons rescue wasn't during the initial Invasion, just retcon as such, and have him elected Prince in the 3054 election and serve just one term as a caretaker-type candidate. If you accelerate the poisoning attempt, and introduce Motstaand as an anti-Military Alliance group, not just an anti-Ghost Bear group, that would let you introduce one of the younger generation in the 3064 election, just before the revival of the Clan Invasion.
My suggestion is Anika Janssen, who I bring up in the other thread. She's just 27 in 3053, but will be 38 (and probably quite accomplished) by the time the next election rolls around. And in canon she eventually becomes a ComStar Precentor, so would probably be pretty pro-Alliance.
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Cilla Amdahl? With a slight change in her history.
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Honestly, FRR even with allies if the clans came hard core knocking there is nothing the FRR is going to do to stop the invasion, now afterward say hello to annoying resistance forces
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Cilla Amdahl? With a slight change in her history.
An interesting character Ice, but one far too young at this time.
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Cilla Amdahl? With a slight change in her history.
An interesting character Ice, but one far too young at this time.
We don't have that much characters. We need to make one.
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I would not object to that Ice.
Right now what would essentially be a third term for Haakon Magnuson as a Regent for Ragnar, similar to what happened in canon but different, is way out in the lead forthe best story option to me.
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Is Anika Janssen with the Wolves in this AU, or available for heroic duty in the FRR?
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Is Anika Janssen with the Wolves in this AU, or available for heroic duty in the FRR?
I don't think she'd be the best candidate in 3054 cause of her Kungsarme service. Which has her on active duty and possibly soon to become a bondsman. Hard to say where the story would take her by 3064.