OBT Forum
General BattleTech => Alternate Universe => Salient Horizon => Topic started by: Takiro on August 05, 2018, 10:36:29 PM
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This is the start of a number of polls concerning the Clans and what you think of various aspects of their society. My first will concern scientific minds. Please detail your thoughts here as well detailing why you voted the way you did.
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What do you mean by best? Best considering what aspect?
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While historic research and development tends to be an indicator for best scientist caste past performance can be misleading but we are also aware of the future developments past 3052 canon which is perhaps the best tell on who has the smartest most innovative thinkers in the Clans.
What else do you think would a good indicator or aspect for evaluation?
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Capacity to innovate? to copy? to improve things? to create new things?
The problem is that I feel the Scientists are not free to do as they would want and the Warriors have rather short-term views.
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Wait! Does this make me a member of the Society?
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Wait! Does this make me a member of the Society?
Yes it does!
Seriously though if there was a top Clan scientifically what would it be and why??
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Wait! Does this make me a member of the Society?
Yes it does!
No because I am like Plato. They need guidance from a new Caste, the Caste of Leaders.
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Coyote and Goliath Scorpion but this is more based on the past than on what they did in the last years.
They did it and I am sure they can do it again.
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I've always heard positives on Coyote, Diamond Shark, and Cloud Cobra but I wanted to see what everybody thought.
Let's get negative for conversation sake, who has the worst scientist caste??
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The only way to judge this is by military technology we have no idea who has done what for anything besides that really. Could one clan be better at biological research than others more than likely but we would never know because we don't learn much about the lesser castes through reading Field Manuals and such.
In no specific order
Jade Falcon
Wolf
Smoke Jaguar
Coyote
Nova Cat
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Well the Clans are a warrior society and most innovation that I have to site is based in war.
Cloud Cobra I believe is skilled in genetic advanced specifically phenotype development but I could be mistaken.
Nova Cat developed many of the Clan energy weapons.
Ghost Bear has the asteroid mining and mobile factory innovations going for it.
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Yea I read about Cloud Cobra and I believe Hell's Horses being good with genetics
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Who are the worst? I would say Blood Spirit, Ice Hellion and Burrock.
Probably because we never heard anything about them.
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Who are the worst? I would say Blood Spirit, Ice Hellion and Burrock.
Probably because we never heard anything about them.
Blood Spirit might be the right answer because of their resource poor situation and they genuinely seems to eschew high tech stuff like EI Implants as 'crutches' which detract from a warrior's true spirit. That is the impression I get from Warriors of Kerensky which has two more quick blurbs.
Cloud Cobra (page 72, Warriors of Kerensky)
Cobra technoilogical expertise is among the best in the Clans. Although Diamond Shark claims the credit for developing the current Iron Womb technology, much of the expertise in genetic engineering stems from the Cobra. Their military technology is similarly well developed, although much of their work is refinement of existing systems rather than new development.
Fire Mandrill (page 78, Warriors of Kerensky)
The Scientist Caste lacks the pooling of resources that has allowed other Clans to make technological leaps, forcing the Mandrills to acquire technology from outside the Clan
I am currently looking (data mining) for more evidence of each Clans scientific developments.
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A quick review of FASA1645 Invading Clans produced nuggets on the following five Clans
Ghost Bear (page 16, Invading Clans)
While they were the last Clan to adopt the OmniMech they did make several important discoveries. Ghost Bear was the first Clan to profit by mining rare raw materials from the asteroid belts common to many Kerensky Cluster systems. While other Clans worked for their profits by mining on the planets proper, Clan Ghost Bear developed unmatched techniques to efficiently strip-mine asteroids. They also devoted their scientific capabilities to new methods of purifying water, and are credited with producing the first strain of Shipeley wheat, a strain so resistant and hardy that it can grow in any soil and climate, including the mineral-poor ground of Strana Mechty's icy southern continent.
Smoke Jaguar (page 49-50, Invading Clans)
Saying even less then the Ghost Bear section if you can believe the Smoke Jaguars seem to have very little to no scientific achievement during the Golden Century. Their warrior caste was able to seize innovations like the OmniMech it really doesn’t say much about the scientists.
Steel Viper (page 84, Invading Clans)
It was their scientists who successfully engineered the Ultra version of the Class 20 Autocannon, which remains the single deadliest ‘Mech weapon on the battlefield today. Their Great Khan, Sanra Mercer, did prohibit contact with lower caste members (scientists) to protect research and development operations from weapon masters and techs of other Clans. One of the last Clans to field the OmniMech.
Nova Cat (page 108, Invading Clans)
Its scientist caste perfected the technology of the modern Clan energy weapons, making these staples of war smaller, lighter, more powerful and able to inflict more serious damage at longer range. Being first to develop these improved weapons gave Nova Cat warriors undisputed battlefield superiority for as long as it took the rest of the Clans to obtain the blueprints and manufacture their own models
Diamond Shark (page 133-134, Invading Clans)
The technician and scientist castes gave Clan Sea Fox its most important military edge, the OmniMech. Via the Chatterweb, Clan Sea Fox techs and scientists learned of Clan Coyote's researches into early OmniMech technology. Quick to see its potential, members of Clan Sea Fox offered their own considerable scientific and technical expertise on the Coyote project. Scientists and technicians from both Clans worked together on the development of the Omni Mech, and so Clan Sea Fox was among the first Clans to field the powerful new machines.
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Diamond Shark also developed Harjel
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Yes but they seem to credit Merchants for discovering the near unique substance rather Scientists for developing anything
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Some finds from FM Crusader Clans which I thought was pretty interesting.
Blood Spirit (page 23-24, Field Manual Crusader Clans)
The third Khan of the Clan (Ceana Boques) responded to Coyote’s new OmniMech technology in 2854 with a series of reforms. “Khan Boques' fifth and final program dealt with the scientist caste. Having seen lackluster results so far in technological design and genetics, she instituted stringent measures to increase the quality of the genetics program and to force the Scientist caste to maximize the usage of existing technology in new 'Mech designs.†Eventually the Clan struck a deal with Kindraa Smythe-Jewel of the Fire Mandrills to obtain the OmniMech around the year 2866.
Curiously on page 28 under Khan Karianna Schmitt there is a follow up to the first part which I think could suggest some kind of advanced cloning process. “Many Blood Spirits have commented on the eerie resemblance between Khan Karianna Schmitt and founding Khan Colleen Schmitt. In accordance with the reforms instituted by Khan Ceana Boques, the scientist caste has made great strides in their attempt to perfect the warrior breeding program, yet even these advances do not fully explain the unnatural likeness-particularly the same brilliant mind and short fuse, which The Remembrance records in detail.â€
Fire Mandrill
(page 39, Field Manual Crusader Clans)
Not many blurbs mentioning scientists for this Clan who like Smoke Jaguar must have taken most of their innovations rather than actually invented something “The Kindraa Smythe-Jewel in particular launched a devastating attack, taking as isorla OmniMech salvage, the production specifications for three different designs, and, according to rumor, two Coyote scientists. Though the Coyote leadership remained strangely silent over the affair, complaints voiced by Coyote warriors spoke of questionable bidding techniques and relaxed zellbrigen.â€
Also in the Regarding Other Clans sidebar it speaks of Cloud Cobra “We disapprove of their Warden views, but we still owe them for genetic assistance from their scientist caste.â€
Page 43 which talks of each Kindraa says “Kindraa Faraday-Tanaga also has the best-developed scientist caste of any Kindraa. They indulge in selective breeding, using prime specimens taken from other Clans in Trials of Possession. However, the scientists are not trueborn from iron wombs as warriors are.â€
Page 47 which has the military breakdown of Kindraa Faraday-Tanaga repeats this claim “They give partial credit for their higher numbers of quality warriors, and the higher average age their warriors reach, to the scientist caste, though they do not say whether this means better breeding programs or improvements to the iron wombs.â€
Finally, page 48 under Kindraa Payne is revealing “Even when the Kindraa does win new genetic material, it has never been sufficient to reverse the inbreeding problems that continue to develop. Rumor has it that the scientist caste is experimenting with new methods of genetic alteration and combination to counteract existing weaknesses.â€
Ice Hellion
(page 75, Field Manual Crusader Clans)
We have some interesting notes on this Clan concerning its scientist caste from its early history before the Golden Century concerning saKhan Lucius Moore sinister successes. “Khan Cage learned that his saKhan had obtained performance-enhancing drugs from several members of the Ice Hellion scientist caste and had issued them to his most loyal warriors-almost a fifth of the Clan.†After engaging these drug enhanced warriors in combat and defeating them the Clan “lost many of our brightest minds in the subsequent purge of the scientist caste.†This would seemingly set them up poorly for the Golden Century when it comes to scientific discovery.
However, on the very next page the Clan makes a characteristically speedy recovery as there are two paragraphs on page 76 which directly address the Hellion’s progress “Khan [Mia] Taney kept the Ice Hellions motivated and cohesive enough to compete for them in Trials of Possession. As one of the first Clans to develop the OmniMech after winning the technology from Clan Coyote, the Ice Hellion forces greatly increased their battlefield flexibility. The Hellions also pioneered improvements in ferro-fibrous and endo-steel construction, aiding them in strengthening their smaller machines. Increasing prosperity enabled our Clan to establish several new manufacturing centers, which turned out more and more machines for our growing 'Mech and aerospace forces.
Clan Ice Hellion took a long time to acquire and develop the necessary technologies for creating Elemental warriors. Though the Clan possessed the technical know-how to manufacture the heavy and powerful battle armor, they lacked the genetic material to produce warriors large enough to effectively use the suits. Ice Hellion warriors, generally smaller and swifter than most, lacked the necessary body mass. Hellion scientists experimented with lighter-weight suits, but such prototypes could not mount the heavy weapons that made standard battle armor so devastating in the field. Attempts to gain Elemental genetic materials from Clan Hell 's Horses proved difficult, so the Ice Hellions were forced to find other means of creating and fielding their own Elemental Stars. Most of the Clan's first Elementals were freeborns, warriors not genetically engineered.
The sheer difficulties of creating Elemental warriors made many Hellion commanders undervalue the advantages provided by the armored soldiers, seeing them as too slow and inflexible. The growing disdain of freeborns by genetically bred trueborn warriors contributed to the anti-Elemental feeling in the Clan. Over time, however, Elementals turned the tide against the Ice Hellions in enough battles to make their value clear to even the most skeptical Hellion commander. As Ice Hellion scientists made progress in creating a smaller, faster version of Elemental battle armor that fit more closely with the Clan's love of speed and maneuverability, Elemental warriors became more accepted among Ice Hellion forces.â€
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Actually forgot I had already got some information from the Golden Century e-book. This table is from that book entirely
OUT WITH THE OLD, IN WITH THE NEW
The following table defines when the Clans began producing their upgraded “Clan-spec†versions of the Star League’s heavy weapons technology. The date given under Intro Date marks when the Clan version began full-scale manufacturing; Cessation indicates when the Star League/Inner Sphere version ceased to be manufactured in Clan space. Faction indicates which of the Clans was first to introduce the Clan-spec version.
Item Intro Cessation Faction
LB-10 X AC 2824 2845 Wolf
Ultra AC/5 2825 2843 Mongoose
Gauss Rifle 2828 2852 Burrock
Machine Gun 2825 2835 Sea Fox
Flamer 2827 2838 Fire Mandrill
ER Large Laser 2823 2825 Nova Cat
Enhanced PPC 2823 2828 Wolverine
ER PPC 2826 2825 Snow Raven
Small Pulse Laser 2829 2837 Ghost Bear
Medium Pulse Laser 2827 2835 Jade Falcon
Large Pulse Laser 2824 2832 Coyote
LRM 2824 2830 Coyote
SRM 2824 2836 Cloud Cobra
Streak SRM 2822 2840 Star Adder
Anti-Missile System 2831 2850 Blood Spirit
ECM Suite 2832 2844 Smoke Jaguar
Active Probe 2832 2850 Goliath Scorpion
CASE 2825 2850 Coyote
TAG 2830 2850 Hell’s Horses
MASC 2827 2841 Ice Hellion
Narc 2828 2839 Hell’s Horses
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It seems most of them had their good and their bad days with some specialisation.
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Actually i am trying to find more specifics on who invented what. XL Engines in particular intrgue me. Who came up with the more compact versions??
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I thought that was explained away as it was the materials in the homeworlds that made the XL engines not a technology increase that would explain the wolf's dragoons unable to make XL engines in the inner sphere at Clans standards
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Well that was the story on the creation of the Light Engine from the Wolf Dragoons in the 3060s. Basically losing a torso doesn't finish you. But i thought it mentioned somewhere a Clan invented their version of the XL engine. I will look.
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Okay the list above bothered me cause it left off several Clan innovations presumably made during the Golden Century. Trying to piece together a list of what I know and am still looking for. Here ya go;
Refining Other Technologies
Item Date Faction
'Water Elemental' 2842 Goliath Scorpion
Harjel ? Diamond Shark
OmniMech 2854 Coyote
Elemental 2868 Wolf
Ultra AC/20 ? Steel Viper
Targeting Computer 2860 Mongoose
Unknown Refined Technologies
Anti-Personnel Pod (A-Pod) introduced circa 2850
Arrow IV Missile Artillery System
ER Medium Laser
ER Small Laser
Double Heat Sinks
Extra-Light (XL) Engine
Ultra AC/2
Ultra AC/10
LB 2-X AC
LB 5-X AC
LB 20-X AC
OmniFighter
OmniVehicle
Unaltered Technologies (unchanged from the Star League right through Clan invasion)
Artemis IV FCS
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I found some of the ones missing before i knew of this book posted before but will attach again here
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Do you have citations for the following info in your list bud cause I can't find these.
ER Medium Laser 2824 Jade Falcon
ER Small Laser 2820 ??? (was thinking Cloud Cobra might be both smaller ERs cause of their FM blurb)
Ultra AC/20 2825 Steel Viper (got Steel Viper here from Invading Clans SB but not the date)
Ultra AC/10 2825 Diamond Shark
Ultra AC/2 2827 Goliath Scorpion
LB 20-X AC 2826 Hell's Horses (not surprised by Horses inventing this but 2 years before the Wolves LB 10-X?)
LB 5-X AC 2825 Coyote
LB 2-X AC 2826 Goliath Scorpion
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Was all sarna so as legit as that is
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Was all sarna so as legit as that is
Can you provide me with a link bud? They usually do citations and perhaps those can lead me to additional info.
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Can try but like you on vacation typing on tablet is challenging. i still havent picked up a new powercord for my laptop. maybe heading to walmart shortly after laundry
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Do you have citations for the following info in your list bud cause I can't find these.
ER Medium Laser 2824 Jade Falcon
ER Small Laser 2820 ??? (was thinking Cloud Cobra might be both smaller ERs cause of their FM blurb)
Ultra AC/20 2825 Steel Viper (got Steel Viper here from Invading Clans SB but not the date)
Ultra AC/10 2825 Diamond Shark
Ultra AC/2 2827 Goliath Scorpion
LB 20-X AC 2826 Hell's Horses (not surprised by Horses inventing this but 2 years before the Wolves LB 10-X?)
LB 5-X AC 2825 Coyote
LB 2-X AC 2826 Goliath Scorpion
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Extended_Range_Medium_Laser
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ultra_AC/20
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ultra_AC/10
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ultra_AC/2
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_20-X_AC
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_5-X_AC
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_2-X_AC
Much easier than i thought
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I just checked on this link and your right bud.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Extended_Range_Medium_Laser#cite_note-TMp341-2
I'll look over Tech Manual again, thanks!
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Yea page 290 of it looks best resource
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Yea page 290 of it looks best resource
Yes indeed, that table has a bunch of info including the ER Small was Jade Falcon again in 2825 while Star Adder is also given credit for the Streak SRM 4 and 6 in 2826. And the A-Pod is apparently Ghost Bear according to that table in 2850. They even have a bunch of conventional infantry weapons invented by certain Clans.
Apparently though someone overlooked Cloud Cobra boasts about being the masters of lasers in FM Warden Clan cause they didn't event squat according to this info from the tables.
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Apparently though someone overlooked Cloud Cobra boasts about being the masters of lasers in FM Warden Clan cause they didn't event squat according to this info from the tables.
Perhaps they manufacture the best ones or they refined the original designs?
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Or it could have been forgotten about completely and is now an error.
I will try and compile a current list of what we know as soon as I can.
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Here is the list of what I've found for Clan tech innovations.
Clan Technological Discoveries
Item Introduced Discoverer
LB 2-X AC 2826 Clan Goliath Scorpion
LB 5-X AC 2825 Clan Coyote
LB-10 X AC 2824 Clan Wolf
LB 20-X AC 2826 Clan Hell’s Horses
Ultra AC/2 2827 Clan Goliath Scorpion
Ultra AC/5 2825 Clan Mongoose
Ultra AC/10 2825 Clan Sea Fox (aka Diamond Shark)
Ultra AC/20 2825 Clan Steel Viper
Gauss Rifle 2828 Clan Burrock
Machine Gun 2825 Clan Sea Fox (aka Diamond Shark)
Flamer 2827 Clan Fire Mandrill
ER Large Laser 2823 Clan Nova Cat
ER Medium Laser 2824 Clan Jade Falcon
ER Small Laser 2825 Clan Jade Falcon
ER PPC 2826 Clan Snow Raven
Small Pulse Laser 2829 Clan Ghost Bear
Medium Pulse Laser 2827 Clan Jade Falcon
Large Pulse Laser 2824 Clan Coyote
LRM-5 2824 Clan Coyote
LRM-10 2824 Clan Coyote
LRM-15 2824 Clan Coyote
LRM-20 2824 Clan Coyote
SRM-2 2824 Clan Cloud Cobra
SRM-4 2824 Clan Cloud Cobra
SRM-6 2824 Clan Cloud Cobra
Streak SRM-2 2822 Clan Star Adder
Streak SRM-4 2826 Clan Star Adder
Streak SRM-6 2826 Clan Star Adder
Anti-Missile System 2831 Clan Blood Spirit
ECM Suite 2832 Clan Smoke Jaguar
Active Probe 2832 Clan Goliath Scorpion
CASE 2825 Clan Coyote
TAG 2830 Clan Hell’s Horses
MASC 2827 Clan Ice Hellion
Narc Missile Beacon 2828 Clan Hell’s Horses
EndoSteel ? Clan Ice Hellion
Ferro-Fibrous ? Clan Ice Hellion
Anti-Personnel Pod 2850 Clan Ghost Bear
Targeting Computer 2860 Clan Mongoose
Star League Technologies unaltered by the Clans
Artemis IV FCS
Unknown Tech Innovations
Arrow IV Missile Artillery System
Double Heat Sinks
Extra-Light (XL) Engine
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Well I wish I had known about the Universal Technology Advancement Table (page 35-63) in Interstellar Operations first. Would have made my job a lot less research oriented although it still was interesting as we have some conflicts [] noted above. Please enjoy the results now in chronological order!
Clan Technological Discoveries
Item Introduced Discoverer
Streak SRM-2 2822 Clan Star Adder
ER Large Laser 2823 Clan Nova Cat
LB-10 X AC 2824 Clan Wolf
ER Medium Laser 2824 Clan Jade Falcon
Large Pulse Laser 2824 Clan Coyote
LRM-5 2824 Clan Coyote
LRM-10 2824 Clan Coyote
LRM-15 2824 Clan Coyote
LRM-20 2824 Clan Coyote
SRM-2 2824 Clan Cloud Cobra
SRM-4 2824 Clan Cloud Cobra
SRM-6 2824 Clan Cloud Cobra
CASE 2825 Clan Coyote
Ferro-Fibrous 2825 Clan Snow Raven [Ice Hellion]
ER Small Laser 2825 Clan Jade Falcon
Ultra AC/5 2825 Clan Mongoose
Ultra AC/10 2825 Clan Sea Fox (aka Diamond Shark)
Ultra AC/20 2825 Clan Steel Viper
Machine Gun 2825 Clan Sea Fox (aka Diamond Shark)
LB 5-X AC 2825 Clan Coyote
LB 2-X AC 2826 Clan Goliath Scorpion
ER PPC 2826 Clan Snow Raven
Streak SRM-4 2826 Clan Star Adder
Streak SRM-6 2826 Clan Star Adder
LB 20-X AC 2826 Clan Hell’s Horses
Ultra AC/2 2827 Clan Goliath Scorpion
MASC 2827 Clan Ice Hellion
EndoSteel 2827 Clan Ice Hellion
Double Heat Sinks 2827 Clan Coyote
Extra-Light (XL) Engine 2827 Clan Snow Raven
Flamer 2827 Clan Fire Mandrill
Medium Pulse Laser 2827 Clan Jade Falcon
Narc Missile Beacon 2828 Clan Ice Hellion [Hell’s Horses]
Gauss Rifle 2828 Clan Burrock
Small Pulse Laser 2829 Clan Ghost Bear
TAG 2830 Clan Hell’s Horses
Anti-Missile System 2831 Clan Star Adder [Blood Spirit]
ECM Suite 2832 Clan Smoke Jaguar
Active Probe 2832 Clan Goliath Scorpion
Arrow IV Artillery 2844 Clan Hell’s Horses
Anti-Personnel Pod 2850 Clan Ghost Bear
Targeting Computer 2860 Clan Mongoose
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Wolf's lack of discoveries is of note. LB10X for Orion and then like well we're done.
Really all the large clans of 3050 are of little note. Makes you realize they were warriors first and foremost and then took it from the weaker clans in Trials or Trade.
Coyote dominant which makes sense from what we know of their acquisitions in Klondike.
Raven's surprised me not many but valuable additions.
Someones got a sense of humor with Fire Mandrills and the flamer lol
Ice Hellions surprisingly are the smartest IMO they really addressed areas that they held dear. Endo Steel to make the most of the tons for lighter mechs. MASC to make them go faster and NARC for combined fire on a single foe.
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I am sort of surprised that by 2860 all the Clan tech we know and love at invasion time is available. Actually if you discount the last three (Targeting Computer, A-Pod, Arrow IV) that date is more like 2832. So essentially within ten years of the conclusion of Operation Klondike (the liberation of the Pentagon Worlds) most everything is available to the Clans. Golden Century is more like the Diamond Decade. The InnerSphere of the 3rd Succession War is so lucky the Clans didn't invade in 3000 cause it would have been impossible to stop them with 3025 (Level 1) tech.
The amount of canon contradictions also surprises me. I can sort of understand someone forgetting about the Cloud Cobras being the masters of laser technology (FM Warden Clans) then having not a one discovery in that field or the Ice Hellions innovating Ferro Fibrous and Endosteel (from FM Crusader Clans). They are older sources and maybe are a little too boastful about the acheivements of their own Clan.
However, both the Anti-Missile System (changed from Blood Spirit to Star Adder) and the Narc Missile Beacon (changed from Hell's Horses to Ice Hellion) between Golden Century PDF to Strategic Operations. Not a big gap and readily available.