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Author Topic: Volunteer designers  (Read 30281 times)

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Trace Coburn

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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2011, 11:29:41 PM »

Cassette System rules sent to Trace.
  It looks like a novel system for infantry support, but the potential to put so many warheads into a given target in one turn if you flush full cassette-loads from all four trailers in a complex... don't get me wrong, I'm sufficiently steeped in RL military lore to be a colossal fan of 'one-salvo kills' (witness my 'Hailstorm' system in the Virginia War AU), but an alpha-strike from a CMS can throw more than a hundred missiles at a single target.  I think the system needs a little more detail before I can determine how balanced it is:

- Once a cassette is expended, how long does it take to dismount the empty and load a fresh one?  IMO, reload time could be the key factor in whether this system's balanced or outright broken.  :(  Found the reload time on a re-read; I'm a little worried that a single turn is too fast, but see also the next point.
- The system is described as a five-ton trailer: how much armour does it have, on each facing and its 'turret'?  :-\
- The 'Cable Check' table - is that for any hit, or just ones reaching the 'damage threshold' mentioned above the table?  Because according to the entries on the table, hits that can knock out a trailer's connections have a statistical likelihood of only 2 in 216 (1/216 each for power and data cables)....  :-\
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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2011, 09:38:26 PM »

  It looks like a novel system for infantry support, but the potential to put so many warheads into a given target in one turn if you flush full cassette-loads from all four trailers in a complex... don't get me wrong, I'm sufficiently steeped in RL military lore to be a colossal fan of 'one-salvo kills' (witness my 'Hailstorm' system in the Virginia War AU), but an alpha-strike from a CMS can throw more than a hundred missiles at a single target.  I think the system needs a little more detail before I can determine how balanced it is:

...It gets worse.  The 'Unique Technology' segment has a Point-C3 system, something that links two vehicles target/tracking system together but offers only a +2 to-hit (it does nothing to affect range modifiers like the canon C3 system).  All of a sudden, you have 8 trailers, with a +2 firing at you.

If you check the rules, a tow vehicle controls ALL its trailers - imagine somebody using a munchie 50-ton 7/11 tow vehicle...

- Once a cassette is expended, how long does it take to dismount the empty and load a fresh one?  IMO, reload time could be the key factor in whether this system's balanced or outright broken.  :(  Found the reload time on a re-read; I'm a little worried that a single turn is too fast, but see also the next point.

...I had thought 30-seconds to a minute - but how many turns is that?  I keep meaning to check, but I can't find it.


- The system is described as a five-ton trailer: how much armour does it have, on each facing and its 'turret'?  :-\
- The 'Cable Check' table - is that for any hit, or just ones reaching the 'damage threshold' mentioned above the table?  Because according to the entries on the table, hits that can knock out a trailer's connections have a statistical likelihood of only 2 in 216 (1/216 each for power and data cables)....  :-\

...ooooh, you're gonna hate this...  There is only a single ton of armor, in a 'clamshell', protecting the hydraulic post (and nothing else when its moving).  The trailer is butt-ass naked.  If it's hit - >boom<.  Its only when its emplaced (normally in an 'Improved Position'), that it has 8 points of armor protecting it from fire in the forward arc; it has none from the rear, or overhead.  It has no turret location     :o

1 in 216!  Ok - that's a bit much.  Maybe, "Roll 2d6, on a twelve, loose the cable for the rest of the game." 

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Dread Moores

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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2011, 03:21:47 AM »

...I had thought 30-seconds to a minute - but how many turns is that?  I keep meaning to check, but I can't find it.

1 turn = 10 seconds.
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Trace Coburn

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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2011, 09:35:37 AM »

  It looks like a novel system for infantry support, but the potential to put so many warheads into a given target in one turn if you flush full cassette-loads from all four trailers in a complex... don't get me wrong, I'm sufficiently steeped in RL military lore to be a colossal fan of 'one-salvo kills' (witness my 'Hailstorm' system in the Virginia War AU), but an alpha-strike from a CMS can throw more than a hundred missiles at a single target.  I think the system needs a little more detail before I can determine how balanced it is:

...It gets worse.  The 'Unique Technology' segment has a Point-C3 system, something that links two vehicles target/tracking system together but offers only a +2 to-hit (it does nothing to affect range modifiers like the canon C3 system).  All of a sudden, you have 8 trailers, with a +2 firing at you.

If you check the rules, a tow vehicle controls ALL its trailers - imagine somebody using a munchie 50-ton 7/11 tow vehicle...
  [shudder]  Self-emplacing fields of up to eight claymore mines with range-brackets of [-] 7/14/21 each?  I'd hate to be the light 'Mech pilot who thought he could bully infantry in that neighbourhood....  :o

- Once a cassette is expended, how long does it take to dismount the empty and load a fresh one?  IMO, reload time could be the key factor in whether this system's balanced or outright broken.  :(  Found the reload time on a re-read; I'm a little worried that a single turn is too fast, but see also the next point.

...I had thought 30-seconds to a minute - but how many turns is that?  I keep meaning to check, but I can't find it.
  As Dread Moores has pointed out, you'd want to make the delay 3-6 turns to match the BT assumption of ten seconds per turn.
  If you wanted to complicate things, you could base the reload time on the number of crewmen attending each launcher; slightly more simply, maybe you could make it a simple dice-roll?  Maybe reloading a CMS launcher requires the crew to hit a given TN on 2d6; after one turn, they start rolling, needing to make a TN 12 in the second turn, 10-12 on the third, 8-12 in the fourth, and so on.  It reflects variable degrees of crew-training and the inevitable 'friction of battle' known as Murphy.  Brilliant/lucky/skilled crews might pull off a reload in twenty seconds, while ham-handed rookies might take over a minute.  (And if a crew hasn't reloaded by the eighth turn of trying, they're probably dead already anyway!  :D)

- The system is described as a five-ton trailer: how much armour does it have, on each facing and its 'turret'?  :-\
- The 'Cable Check' table - is that for any hit, or just ones reaching the 'damage threshold' mentioned above the table?  Because according to the entries on the table, hits that can knock out a trailer's connections have a statistical likelihood of only 2 in 216 (1/216 each for power and data cables)....  :-\

...ooooh, you're gonna hate this...  There is only a single ton of armor, in a 'clamshell', protecting the hydraulic post (and nothing else when its moving).  The trailer is butt-ass naked.  If it's hit - >boom<.  Its only when its emplaced (normally in an 'Improved Position'), that it has 8 points of armor protecting it from fire in the forward arc; it has none from the rear, or overhead.  It has no turret location     :o
  Actually, that's a relief.  If these things could actually absorb punishment, I'd run screaming, but making them 'soap-bubbles armed with sledgehammers' that die if you breathe on them means they're far more frail than I'd assumed; as you noted in the system's description, a good bombardment with artillery (or a few cluster-bombs from your supporting ASF Stars) will go a long way to neutralising these systems, and that sort of 'ready antidote' seriously cuts down the munch-factor.

1 in 216!  Ok - that's a bit much.  Maybe, "Roll 2d6, on a twelve, loose the cable for the rest of the game."
  1/36 - the same odds as a Gauss-rifle headcap, or a jam knocking out an Ultra-AC for the duration of a scenario - is much better from a balance PoV.  ;)

  How long can those cables be, by the way?  How much separation can the control-vehicle have from its launchers?  And how do you track where the cable-runs are, for the purposes of hit- and damage-resolution?  My first instinct if I knew I'd be facing these things would be to blanket any possible control-vehicles with artillery airburst fragmentation-rounds, in the expectation/hope that the shrapnel would cut a large number of cables and neutralise much of an entrenched launcher-complex before it could engage.
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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2011, 12:24:17 AM »

  [shudder]  Self-emplacing fields of up to eight claymore mines with range-brackets of [-] 7/14/21 each?  I'd hate to be the light 'Mech pilot who thought he could bully infantry in that neighbourhood....  :o
...As a matter of fact, that is EXACTLY their purpose, according to the fluff.  A Point of these accompany Clan Piranha infantry detachments, to scare off mechs.

  As Dread Moores has pointed out, you'd want to make the delay 3-6 turns to match the BT assumption of ten seconds per turn.
  If you wanted to complicate things, you could base the reload time on the number of crewmen attending each launcher; slightly more simply, maybe you could make it a simple dice-roll?  Maybe reloading a CMS launcher requires the crew to hit a given TN on 2d6; after one turn, they start rolling, needing to make a TN 12 in the second turn, 10-12 on the third, 8-12 in the fourth, and so on.  It reflects variable degrees of crew-training and the inevitable 'friction of battle' known as Murphy.  Brilliant/lucky/skilled crews might pull off a reload in twenty seconds, while ham-handed rookies might take over a minute.  (And if a crew hasn't reloaded by the eighth turn of trying, they're probably dead already anyway!  :D)

...Hmm.  I like the idea, but I'm wary of complicating it too much.  Maybe two turns...  I'll have to playtest again.

  Actually, that's a relief.  If these things could actually absorb punishment, I'd run screaming, but making them 'soap-bubbles armed with sledgehammers' that die if you breathe on them means they're far more frail than I'd assumed; as you noted in the system's description, a good bombardment with artillery (or a few cluster-bombs from your supporting ASF Stars) will go a long way to neutralising these systems, and that sort of 'ready antidote' seriously cuts down the munch-factor.

 ;D

How long can those cables be, by the way?  How much separation can the control-vehicle have from its launchers?  And how do you track where the cable-runs are, for the purposes of hit- and damage-resolution?  My first instinct if I knew I'd be facing these things would be to blanket any possible control-vehicles with artillery airburst fragmentation-rounds, in the expectation/hope that the shrapnel would cut a large number of cables and neutralise much of an entrenched launcher-complex before it could engage.

...3 hexes per trailer - I wanted realism.  According to the fluff, it can use iron sights with manual aim and emergency generator for guerilla (sp) warfare.  The normal 'formation' is 3 SRM/MRM trailers (for close defense) on the 3 hex sides facing the enemy advance, and a single LRM/ELRM  on the opposite side.  Note, you could mix it up - I've used pure LRM/ELRM with VTOL spotters (with the PC3 system), and it was MEAN.

So, rule of cool suitable or not?   8)
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Trace Coburn

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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2011, 08:05:54 AM »

...Hmm.  I like the idea, but I'm wary of complicating it too much.  Maybe two turns...  I'll have to playtest again.
  It's easy enough to adjust the TNs to accelerate or slow the process - or re-model it completely.  The only reason I didn't suggest 1d4+2 turns was that I don't know how many BT groups keep d4s to hand.  ;D

...3 hexes per trailer - I wanted realism.  According to the fluff, it can use iron sights with manual aim and emergency generator for guerilla (sp) warfare.  The normal 'formation' is 3 SRM/MRM trailers (for close defense) on the 3 hex sides facing the enemy advance, and a single LRM/ELRM  on the opposite side.  Note, you could mix it up - I've used pure LRM/ELRM with VTOL spotters (with the PC3 system), and it was MEAN.

So, rule of cool suitable or not?   8)
  So, they're on a straight line out from their 'hex-facing' on the tow vehicle, up to three hexes out?  Sounds workable - as long as nobody starts asking why you can't vary the placement.  ::)

  Yeah, with these revisions it sounds more or less workable to me, but in all honesty that's in the abstract: I lack the resources (read: fellow players) to playtest a new concept like this.  It passes my 'Rule of Cool' test, and probably a lot of others play-groups'... right up until the resident THAT GUY started screaming when their [insert High-Value Unit here] came flying around a city corner into a whole launch-complex and got vapourised in one turn.  :D
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 08:10:14 AM by Trace Coburn »
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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2011, 08:45:24 AM »

Yeah, with these revisions it sounds more or less workable to me, but in all honesty that's in the abstract: I lack the resources (read: fellow players) to playtest a new concept like this.  It passes my 'Rule of Cool' test, and probably a lot of others play-groups'... right up until the resident THAT GUY started screaming when their [insert High-Value Unit here] came flying around a city corner into a whole launch-complex and got vapourised in one turn.  :D

Mwuh-huh-hah!  You ought to see the MechMortar/8 variant.  Turns out there IS a way to link 4 vehicles, but it takes 3 PC3 systems, and what happens after the Combine invents their C3 is just hateful.  Say it with me; 8 shells per Turn, times 4 trailers, times 4 vehicles=shitstorm...  Mind you, the to-hit numbers aren't great.

Mind you, the portable Infantry turrets follow the same basic idea, with direct-fire weapons, as they are simply dismounted from the trailer and placed in a hole over their ammo (if they have any).  The larger vehicle turrets can use the PC3 system to, but with only 20 tons they have to choose their priorities carefully.
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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2011, 01:15:04 AM »

I need an opinion on a couple new weapons.  Do the stats look ok?  Nothing grotesquely overdone?

Anti-Personnel Gauss Repeater
   With intelligence stating dezClan Jade Falcon had designed a new weapon system, New Clan Scientists and Technicians were eager to receive details of the Anti-Personnel Gauss weapon.  Seeing the potential benefit to Gauss weapons, Technicians immediately followed the example of dezClan Hells Horses and began experimenting with adding extra capacitors to increase its damage potential.

Game Rules
   The AP Gauss Repeater fires a stream of 5 smaller-caliber shells, like the Hell’s Horses HAG it is derived from.  Roll on the column ‘5” on the Cluster Hits table to determine the number of shells that hit the target, and roll for each on the appropriate Hit Location Chart. 

              Heat     Dam        Range      Ammo     Wt        Space          Tech
Weapon          Std(Aero)      Std (Aero)       Min/Sht/Med/Lng (Aero)     (ton)    (tons)   M  P  CV  SV  F  SC  DS Rating
Gauss-R                 2      2/Round (6)         1  /  3  /  7  / 10    (Short)        8     1      1.5


 Naval Gauss Repeaters
   Assimilating the intelligence concerning dezClan Hell’s Horses new Hyper-Assault Gauss weapon, Technicians immediately saw the potential benefit to the fleet.  Without a new weapon system for almost a hundred years, the Navy relied almost exclusively on the weapons technology of the Terran Hegemony.
   Despite the availability of mass and space for an improved Gauss weapon, Naval officers cautioned against firing increased numbers of poorly-aimed projectiles.  Acknowledging their concerns, Technicians chose to limit capacitor increases to powering a second shot, similar to the Ultra-series of Autocannons.

Game Rules
   Naval Repeaters do not jam as Ultra Autocannons, and have the option on firing a single round or double rate.  Firing a second round generates twice the heat of a single round, and uses a second round of ammunition.  Naval Repeaters roll on the ‘2’ column of the Cluster Hits Table to determine the number of rounds the target.
                   Heat     Capital        Range      Ammo     Wt        Space      Tech
Weapon               Std(Aero)   Dam (Aero)   Min/Sht/Med/Lng (Aero)     (ton)    (tons)    JS    WS   SS   MS       Rating
Light N-G (R)        9/Shot (2)         15              N/A (Extreme)       5        5,600    1-C   1-C   1-C   1
Medium N-G (R) 15/Shot (2)         25              N/A (Extreme)      5/2      6,600    1-C   1-C   1-C   1
Heavy N-G (R)   18/Shot (2)         30              N/A (Extreme)       2        8,100    1-C   1-C   1-C   1

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Red Pins

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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2011, 02:17:17 AM »

...And this one.

Thunderbolt-TOW Missile
   Left with shortages of modern electronics and seeking to counter the growing use of electronic warfare among the New Clans, the Legacy Cluster’s Civil Government ordered historical databases combed to identify possible battletechnology they might be capable of producing.
   The Thunderbolt-TOW system duplicates the most common anti-armor system of the 21st Century, allowing missile crews the ability to guide a projectile by means of a nose-mounted camera and wire drum mounted with the launcher.  Ignoring the EW raging around their vehicles, Civil Government forces are able to use the system to its full potential, attacking and destroying specific locations on ‘Mechs and vehicles.

Game Rules
   The Thunderbolt-TOW provides a gunner the ability to inflict the full damage of a standard LRM launcher while ignoring ECM penalties, but can only be fired from a stationary launcher.  With the optical guidance system, however, the missile does not require the use of indirect fire and spotters to fire over terrain obstacles such as hills without penalty.
The system allows players to make aimed shots without penalty, but depends upon visual conditions at the time of launchings.  Smoke and other conditions can have a disadvantageous effect on the system.  The Thunderbolt-TOW is also the only missile allowed on portable turrets.

              Heat     Dam              Range    Ammo     Wt        Space          Tech
Weapon          Std(Aero)      Std (Aero)       M/S/M/L (Aero) (ton)    (tons)   M  P  CV  SV  F  SC  DS Rating
TOW-10               5(5)    10(10)         5/6/12/18 (Med)   6     7        2   -   1    2   -    -    -
TOW-15              7(7)    15(15)         5/6/12/18 (Med)   4    11       3   -   1    3   -    -    -
TOW-20              8(8)           20(20)         5/6/12/18 (Med)   2    15       5   -   1    5   -    -    -
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Halvagor

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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2011, 02:29:27 AM »

Your TOW should not only require the firing unit to be stationary, but if the pilot is going to gain the benefits of the wire-guided system, they'll probably also be prevented from using any other weapon system, and could only use multiple TOWs if they're used against the same target.

That said, if you're going to actually use realistic technologies, you're going to start messing up the game balance.  What's next, a rifle that can fire 450 meters (15 hexes)?  Heavy cannon firing further than lighter ones (ballistics...don't go down that rabbit hole!) and armor needing to be penetrated rather than worn away?
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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2011, 03:30:11 PM »

...Nah - I'm not that crazy.  That's actually something I think I need to include, that the TOW is an exclusive weapon system.  I never thought to put it down.  Thanks!
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2011, 02:19:42 PM »

I checked the rules for the ELM and I had a few questions:

- critics: Do they have the same number of critics as regular 'Mechs? Or are they following different rules as the use of Compact Heat Sinks or the following quote could let me think
Quote
Designers do not allocate critical space for the use of Endo-Steel; its slots are standardised and do not appear on their record sheet.
- you wrote that they could use Hardpoints but the rules for these are not written.
- armour: what is the maximum amount of armour that can be carried by an ELM?
- equipment:
Quote
ELMs may use battlearmor weapons and equipment, providing an equivalent does not exist on the Heavy Weapons and Equipment table.
and 4 lines below
Quote
Equipment from the Battlearmor Equipment Table may be used if the designer is willing to settle for inferior performance.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2011, 07:00:10 PM »

Thanks, IH!

*Dang it!*  Of all the things to forget, I forget to add the IS/Armor table.  And no, they have a reduced number of crits, too - basically, remove the second charts from the arms and torsos.  Hardpoints are STILL giving me grief.  But so you get an idea, they cost .25-.5 tons, but can carry as much as the arm of a unit can lift, 5% of its mass.  Its a pitance, but you can cram HS, collant pods, and equipment like ecm on it if you don't mind the possibility of it being shot off.  I'll post an updated copy if I can't figure out the email.
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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2011, 08:39:10 PM »

...

Hit location table might help too.  Oy.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Volunteer designers
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2011, 01:57:01 PM »

Is it possible to make Omni out of them?
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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