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Author Topic: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century  (Read 24966 times)

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Takiro

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Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« on: January 20, 2014, 10:08:10 PM »
Been meaning to post this little chart and my thoughts for a while given the lack of “House grown” warships. The introduction of some new canon vessels has really created a great gulf between the Terran Hegemony and everyone else. Yet as you can see in the listing below the “Great” Houses had ample time to develop a fleet of their own.

Warship class & Designation (Mass) - Faction (Sourcebook) - Year Introduced
Dreadnought class Battleship (960k tons) - Terran Hegemony (H:RW) - 2300
Dart class Light Cruiser (680k tons) - Terran Hegemony (TRO3057R) - 2305
Black Lion I class Battlecruiser (720k tons) - Terran Hegemony (FR CCAF 2765) - 2315
Bonaventure class Corvette (240k tons) - Terran Hegemony (TRO3057R) - 2317
Vigilant class Corvette (140k tons) - Terran Hegemony (TRO3057R) - 2320
Cruiser class Cruiser (500k tons) - Terran Hegemony (FR DCMS) - 2325
Lola I class Destroyer (680k tons) - Terran Hegemony (TRO3057R) - 2345
Quixote class Frigate (780k tons) - Terran Hegemony (TRO3057R)    - 2350
Defender class ? (?? tons) - Federated Suns (StrOps)   - 2360
Winchester class Cruiser (740k tons) - Taurian Corcordat (TRO3057R) - 2364
League class ? (?? tons) - Free Worlds League (StrOps) - 2368
Monsoon class Battleship (1,310k tons) - Terran Hegemony (TRO3057R) - 2368
Aegis class Heavy Cruiser (750k tons) - Terran Hegemony (TRO2750) - 2372
Commonwealth class ? (?? tons) - Lyran Commonwealth (StrOps) - 2375
Narukami class Destroyer (670k tons) - Draconis Combine (FR DCMS 2765) - 2380
Du Shi Wang class Battleship (900k tons) - Capellan Confederation (TRO3057R) - 2380

So we have 16 known dreadnought warship classes before the dawn of the 25th century. Ten of these are Hegemony vessels which makes sense as Terra itself gives the Camerons a major edge in warship development thanks to its massive industry which no other House can match. Many realms like the Federated Suns (founded 2317), the Draconis Combine (founded 2319), the Lyran Commonwealth (founded 2341), and the Capellan Confederation (founded 2367) are still coming together at this time. The industry of their worlds, some still best described as colonies, is weak compared to the Terran homeworld.

First generation Terran warships are proof of concept designs fielded before the Hegemony had any competitors what so ever. Like the Dreadnought and its Compact KF Core they revolutionized naval warfare. I believe Second generation warships began with the Lola I which start to build on lessons learned in the first wave as well as plan for the day when competitors arose. It is half way through this generation when the Houses start introducing their first dreadnought style warships. Now as I said they lack the industry of the Hegemony but still the time is there for them to launch their own fleet program. Say a three to four ship class (Destroyer, Corvette, Cruiser, and probably even Battleship) project would be not only conceivable but necessary to keep pace with the Hegemony.

Incidentally I also believe there are more Terran warship classes in the 24th century which have yet to be detailed. For example the infamous collision between the warships Wildcat and Yalu could indicate another class not yet seen. Could there be a Destroyer introduced in 2310 which was flawed in some way? SLSB page 13 and Explorer Corps page 31 note McKenna’s dissatisfaction with the government because of the poor navigation in this incident. To me it even implied this incident could have been the impetus for his move against the corrupt Alliance. Was the design of this first Destroyer mangled in some way by the Alliance bureaucracy that led to a tragedy that began its downfall?

Oh and 2398 is the start of the Age of War. Can you say get building warship manufacturers!

Well those are some of my initial thoughts. I'd love to create a warship family tree and get your input. Thoughts?
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lrose

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2014, 12:00:22 AM »
Quote from: Takiro on January 20, 2014, 10:08:10 PM
Incidentally I also believe there are more Terran warship classes in the 24th century which have yet to be detailed. For example the infamous collision between the warships Wildcat and Yalu could indicate another class not yet seen. Could there be a Destroyer introduced in 2310 which was flawed in some way? SLSB page 13 and Explorer Corps page 31 note McKenna’s dissatisfaction with the government because of the poor navigation in this incident. To me it even implied this incident could have been the impetus for his move against the corrupt Alliance. Was the design of this first Destroyer mangled in some way by the Alliance bureaucracy that led to a tragedy that began its downfall?

SLSB p. 16 in the sidebar references the THS Monitor an Essex Class Destroyer commanded by Michael Cameron. Assuming this would have to be before he was Director, this puts the Essex class in existance by the 2330s, if not earlier.  Since the Essex I is listed in the 2765 CC fleet I assume we will be seeing it in a future field report.   There should also be a Taurian Corvette from 2364-2366 period per Periphery 1e p. 18 Taurian Corvettes managed to destroy 2 Davion warships and capture a third.

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Takiro

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2014, 06:29:37 AM »
Quote from: lrose on January 21, 2014, 12:00:22 AM
SLSB p. 16 in the sidebar references the THS Monitor an Essex Class Destroyer commanded by Michael Cameron. Assuming this would have to be before he was Director, this puts the Essex class in existance by the 2330s, if not earlier.  Since the Essex I is listed in the 2765 CC fleet I assume we will be seeing it in a future field report.

Ah ha, the original TRO 2750 says the first Essex class saw service in the Hegemony Navy during the 25th and 26th centuries translation 2401 to 2500. So one of these sources is incorrect but if as you say we will see the Essex I detailed in a future Field Report we can let TPTB tackle that one first. What do you think?

Quote from: lrose on January 21, 2014, 12:00:22 AM
There should also be a Taurian Corvette from 2364-2366 period per Periphery 1e p. 18 Taurian Corvettes managed to destroy 2 Davion warships and capture a third.

Well the Federated Suns just introduced their first Warship 4-6 years prior and if the Defender isn't a Destroyer that will be their second class. The Taurians could have concurrently designed the Winchester introduced in 2364 with another Corvette or another geuss they are pre dreadnaughts.
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lrose

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2014, 07:37:23 AM »
Quote from: Takiro on January 21, 2014, 06:29:37 AM
Ah ha, the original TRO 2750 says the first Essex class saw service in the Hegemony Navy during the 25th and 26th centuries translation 2401 to 2500. So one of these sources is incorrect but if as you say we will see the Essex I detailed in a future Field Report we can let TPTB tackle that one first. What do you think?


TR2750 also says the Essex 1 was replaced in 2645, which is the 27th century.  The early writers had a tough time with centuries.  (no seriously this type of mistake is common in many of the early books).  Personally I would have the Essex 1 date from the early 2300s due to the reference in SLSB but we can wait and see what TPTB do with the design in the FRs.



Quote

Well the Federated Suns just introduced their first Warship 4-6 years prior and if the Defender isn't a Destroyer that will be their second class. The Taurians could have concurrently designed the Winchester introduced in 2364 with another Corvette or another geuss they are pre dreadnaughts.

The Davion warships are not specified- They are just described as larger then the Taurian ships.  The Taurian ships should be modern- the text says" Calderon's new navy" (p1e p. 18) this implies modern vessels, not pre-dreadnoughts.  So the Taurians should have a Corvette in the 2360s. That said I don't know that we will see an official design.   
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Takiro

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2014, 08:28:46 AM »
Very true Irose. Is there any other canon information on warships from the 2300s (aka the 24th century)?

What are your thoughts on warship construction capabilities for the Houses and the Taurian Corcordat in this era. Could they have fielded a first generation warship fleet by the end of this century?  If so what size?
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lrose

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2014, 08:57:44 AM »
Quote from: Takiro on January 21, 2014, 08:28:46 AM
Very true Irose. Is there any other canon information on warships from the 2300s (aka the 24th century)?'

I can't think of anything off the top of my head but if I remember anything else I will post it here/


Quote
What are your thoughts on warship construction capabilities for the Houses and the Taurian Corcordat in this era. Could they have fielded a first generation warship fleet by the end of this century?  If so what size?

I think it is very possible- BUT the writers have chosen to take a different path.  Keep in mind we have references to fleets of thousands of merchant vessels.  They had to come from somewhere and I don't see the TH necessarily providing them to their enemies.  So if the Houses had infrastructure for these merchant vessels I can see them building dozens (not necessarily hundreds) of warships in the 2300s and 2400s.  As the Age of War progress I could see them building larger number of ships, especially if they felt the need to keep up with the TH fleet.

In the House Davion SB it talks about a large fleet bombarding Novaya Zemlaya in 2399.  The House Liao SB talks about the massive (pre-dreadnought) fleet that bombarded the Davion troops on Capella in 2367. House Steiner SB (p. 12) talks about Fleet Admirals in the 2370s-2380s- it a bit think but it implies the Commonwealth had a substantial navy (keep in mind this is before the rise of the Social Generals in the LC).  And while it is later per Battlespace in 2475 the TH destroyed over 20 Marik Warships at Oriente.  This is important because most (all?) of the TH ships were not available to the IS houses at this point. The only ships which might have been sold to the Great Houses at this point were the Vigilant and Cruiser- most other designs probably would not have been made available until formation of the SL.  So unless the FWL bought a lot of Vigilants and Cruisers they probably built a good number of warships. 
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Takiro

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2014, 09:09:46 AM »
It is a little off topic but when is the first known warship sale by the Terran Hegemony to another party? Stated canon text please. It can't be the 24th century cause that makes no sense. Prior to the Star League the Hegemony is trying to play the nice guy and with the development of the BattleTech in 2439 perhaps they get cash strapped enough to start the process.  Still I can only logically see such a move made in the course of the formation of the League and the end of the Age of War.

Back on topic with two things. One Strategic Operations says each House fielded "hundreds of warships during the Star League era. So at least for the sake of Shattered Dawn we will follow this recent canon declaration. 

Two, when was the first Dreadnought Warship engagement and who participated in it? Gotta be in the 2300 s.   
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lrose

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2014, 09:33:11 AM »
Quote from: Takiro on January 21, 2014, 09:09:46 AM
It is a little off topic but when is the first known warship sale by the Terran Hegemony to another party? Stated canon text please. It can't be the 24th century cause that makes no sense.

Well here is what we know
Vigilant (TR3057r p. 188) - In 2409 the TH began building the Vincent. "The vigilants were eventually mothballed or sold off to the various houses as the Vincents replaced them"
Dart (TR3057r p. 212) They served for 200 years before they were retired. Many were sold to periphery states.
Black Lion Is (per FMCC2765) were not sold to the Great Houses until just before the RW
The Aegis was not sold to the great houses until the RW per TR2750 & TR3057
Baron (TR3057r p. 200) were sold to the houses in 2720
Lola I - no data but per TR3057R p. 210 they served until 2622
Vincent - no data but I would suggest after the formation of the SL since the TH made Delhi build a new shipyard in the Delhi system to protect their technology
Cruiser Cruiser- mothballed 2405 " but several would get a new lease on life after being sold to the Great Houses" (FRDC2765) The date is obviously very vague.



Quote
Still I can only logically see such a move made in the course of the formation of the League and the end of the Age of War.

I can see this happening during the reign of Deborah Cameron and her policy of Aggressive Peacemaking.  Which kind of fits with the sale of the Darts.

Quote

Two, when was the first Dreadnought Warship engagement and who participated in it? Gotta be in the 2300 s.

We know the FS and TC fought a battle in 2368 at Robsart (periphery 1e. p. 18). 

The Cruiser Cruiser entry talks about it being used against other warships but with no details.  Unfortunately details are scarce- If I can find anything I will post it here.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 12:16:08 AM by lrose »
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Takiro

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2014, 10:59:05 AM »
I'd agree with your assessment on Terran warship sales beginning under Deborah Cameron.  That would put the first such transactions sometime in the 2500 s which marks the end of the Age of War and the rise of the Star League.

The 2360 decade would seem to be the place for the first modern warship battles. Perhaps it is Robsart.

What was the first Rim Worlds warship? Any chance of them having a program or lesser states like the United Hindu Collective or Rasalhague in the 24th century??
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lrose

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 12:30:32 PM »
I have my doubts that Robsart was the first Warship battle. It is the earliest definitive reference I could find, but I could see TH involved in battles earlier (but then again who else had warships before 2364?)

As for the RWR -we know they had the Pinto (don't get me started how a ship only mentioned in connection with the TC was said to be developed by the RWR in an era when there was no HPGs and communications between the RWR and TC would take months....) Given their limited industrial capabilities in the 24th & 25th Century I don't think they had a huge fleet.  It is almost certain that the UHC and Rasalhague did not have warships. 
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Takiro

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 01:43:29 PM »
It is conceivable that the first Warship v. Warship action was a purely Terran affair.  The death throws of the Alliance could have made such a battle possible.  Yet there is no mention of such an incident. I'll have to look up other incidents but that seems the only possibility for the first 60 years. Then you have Robsart in the 2360 decade after the Suns and the Corcordat developed warship tech.

I do agree with you Irose that the RWR, the UHC, and Rasalhague are unlikely to have developed warship technology aka the compact core prior to the Pinto. Yeah I don't know how it got to be a Rimmer design. 

Now to consult the Olde Naval Archive for some designs.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 01:47:20 PM by Takiro »
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lrose

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2014, 02:10:26 PM »
If you accept the dates for warship introducitons in Strategic Ops, then Robsart is almost certainly the first Warship battle.   The LC, FWL, DC and CC did not develop warships until after 2368 and so unless the FS and TH fought a battle between 2360 and 2368 this was the first Warship battle. As the FS was focused on the CC in the 2360s and the TH seemed to be fairly peaceful, I doubt there were any confrontations between the FS and TH. 
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drakensis

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2014, 04:04:15 PM »
It doesn't seem likely that the FS and TH fought a war in that period as that's more or less when the FS was busy trying to grab the region that became the Capellan Confederation.

On the other hand, in this era the Capellans managed a credible orbital bombardment with ships (subcapital-armed compact core merchant ships presumably) in 2367. It's likely a fair bit into the Age War before such ships are no longer considered credible combatants. Most early 'warship' engagements would be between such vessels.
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lrose

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2014, 04:54:13 PM »
Quote from: drakensis on January 21, 2014, 04:04:15 PM
It doesn't seem likely that the FS and TH fought a war in that period as that's more or less when the FS was busy trying to grab the region that became the Capellan Confederation.


Except they did.  This is detailed in Periphery 1e and FM:P and is the basis for the Taurian Paranoia of the FS.  What happened was Capellan noble forces(Tormassov's Galactic Rangers) fled into the Periphery after Franco Liao ordered them to disband and stumbled across the Taurian Concordat which was previously unknown to the IS powers.  When Capellan forces chased after Tormassov's then escaped, using several captured Taurian ships, heading to the Davion world of Sanurcha.  The Galactic Rangers were badly damaged and fled.  However the Galactic Rangers were followed by the Capellans who were destroyed by the Davion forces.  Suspecting the Capellans came from a hidden base in the Robsart system, the Davion forces went to Robsart, encountered the Concordat, and lost 3 ships (2 destroyed, 1 captured) to the Taurian forces. For the next 3 years the 2 sides fought a series of sporadic naval battles from Robsart across the Pleiades Cluster.  Eventually Davion turn his attention to the Capellans as he was not concerned with the Concordat. 



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CJvR

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Re: Known Dreadnought Warships of the 24th Century
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2014, 09:08:58 PM »
Quote from: Takiro on January 20, 2014, 10:08:10 PM
I'd love to create a warship family tree and get your input. Thoughts?
Given their extreme crappieness IMPO the old TH/SL designs should be buried as fast as possible, particularly in as an extensive AH rewrite as SD. There isn't really that much to analyze about early WS designs. They are a part of a legacy from different rule sets that were foolishly kept rather than reworked into ships that makes sense under the current rules.
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