OBT Forum
General BattleTech => Alternate Universe => Shattered Dawn => Topic started by: Takiro on July 21, 2013, 09:45:26 PM
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Alright I kinda got a problem with how TPTB describe this era as the dawn of mercenaries. Historical Reunification War (Sidebar Page 18, Page 26 Drawdown of House Forces, etc.) outlines their case. It makes it seem to me like this is when Mechs and Mercs first got together in a big way. I don’t buy that.
Sure there was a lot of downsizing but you can’t take it with you. Lets say you get run out of House service that’s not really your Mech. That’s government property kid. Sure some steal there rides but it ain’t that many and your not working for the Houses. So I don’t see gobs of Mech units just all of a sudden spawned by the Star League. The first large scale Dispossessed, sure fine.
Here is what I have for mercs of the era. The list is from our Mercenary Guild fanbook and Historical Reunification War. There are a few huge units but they are all House Irregulars who are very friendly with their benefactors. Even the Canopians seemed to be behind the formation of their 6 regiments. Overall most Mercs with a Mech Force are going to be small. Less than a battalion with such formations being uncommon. I would approximate the total Mech force strength of mercenaries at this time to be somewhere between 30-36 regiments.
Mercenary Guild
Foreign Legion (6 regiments)
Northwind Highlanders (6 regiments)
Illician Lancers (6 regiments)
Smithson’s Chinese Bandits (1 regiment)
Grave Walkers (1 battalion)
Vatican Swiss Guard (1 battalion or less)
Outoworld Mercs (1)
Pitcairn Legion (3 regiments)
Canopian Mercenary Regiments (6)
Buquoy’s Bandits
Samuelson’s Slaughterers
Kincani’s Dragoon
Mieselsens Marauders
The Red Hand
Force Majoris
Love to hear your thoughts on the subject and if I missed something please point it out.
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To be completely honest, it makes sense to me when you ask why the mercs came about. Too me, I look at that era and the equipment wielded as more of a privateering venture. I think the most logical explanation doesn't come from" they left with their 'mechs". But more of a "we can't have them as regulars, but independent contractors are perfectly legit." The Houses, in realizing that they need to downsize, go the less ethical route and form the units, hopeful to tie them to their realm in the process, from their newly dispossessed and cached equipment.
It's just a matter of how you look at it, and of how the "stolen" units are presented to the Council. For the Houses, they lose a bit of equipment and personnel from the rolls on paper, but gain much of it back on contract in actuality. Keeping them to a battalion here or there would help keep questions to a minimum, though. Could be an explanation as to why so many of them were so close at hand during the downsizing. Not all would have come from there, but I am sure a great deal of them could have been brought about secretly in such a fashion.
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I'd agree the first Mercs would have been wealthy thrill seekers, House Privateers or rogues who later found a legitimate business to be had
The mercenary trade plays pretty well with BattleTech it's almost part in parcel of the universe to me - side note another reason me and jihad/early DA eras fell out the apparent death of merc trade
One reason I always hated the Dragoons always too false for me but an example how the early units likely formed - state sponsored independent guns for hire
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Hi I was glancing over the Illician Lancers information and it seems that they were over 9 regiments strong plus reserves , support units and an ASF Wing. When they were first formed in 2752. They were whittled down to 4 regiments by the 3060's but by 3067 they were able to rebuild into a square brigade once again. Which is a mech regiment supported by a regiment of armor , a regiment of mechanized infantry and a fighter wing.
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Sure there was a lot of downsizing but you can’t take it with you. Lets say you get run out of House service that’s not really your Mech. That’s government property kid.
Yeah, but if you factor in that the houses were looking for ways to cheat then it becomes more plausible. You pick a few very loyal officers and have them form a mercenary unit that will get some surplus equipment as a retirement bonus. It is off the house records but still essentially available. Sort of like Lord Vorloupulous and his 2000 cooks...
http://vorkosigan.wikia.com/wiki/Vorloupulous%27s_Law
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You pick a few very loyal officers and have them form a mercenary unit that will get some surplus equipment as a retirement bonus. It is off the house records but still essentially available. Sort of like Lord Vorloupulous and his 2000 cooks...
http://vorkosigan.wikia.com/wiki/Vorloupulous%27s_Law
That's a good idea and after one or two generations, they just become what you always pretended they were, ie mercenaries.
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Pretty much how I always saw mercs likely why the houses are constantly trying to tie them back to the Houses as well they want to make them the disposable forces they always were an interesting circle if there ever was one
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I guess it does make sense for the first large Mech equipped mercenary forces to be appearing at this time. The creation of the Star League does bring up some hard ceilings for the Houses and if you'll notice most of the units are large House Irregulars (State Sponsored Mercs).
Not sure if I buy the Illician Lancers at more than six Mech regiments as the text eludes to them as an over sized BattleMech Division. So I'm still going with 6 or do you guys think Gabriel is right with
I was going to have the Foreign Legion as a Terran creation of this time as well. Yes the 6 regiments of the Legion had been around but perhaps this is when they acquire Mechs. Essentially offering a spot to dispossessed House Mechwarriors stemming the efforts of the Canopians and other would be employers. Ice Hellion what do you think?
We can have fun with the Northwind Highlanders here as well. I could see the Capellans mercifying them to avoid arms restrictions and come up with other benefits. Also it could be a win for the Highlanders as it would mark their first return home?? The Star League could use them to garrison the interior from Northwind augmenting the Hegemony's defense during the war.
The Canopian Regiments and the Pitcairn Legion are covered already not much to add to them I am thinking.
That leaves me with three thus far known mercs of the era who are much smaller than their brethren although Smithson’s Chinese Bandits could be bigger than their 1 regiment. If you look at our write up in Mercenary Guild it implies they are Marik State Sponsored so could they be larger. Irose what say you?
Obviously the Vatican Swiss Guard has a sponsor but would they need Mechs at this time (1 battalion or less)?
Do the Lyrans and Draconians sponsor any mercs at the time?
That leaves us with the Grave Walkers (1 battalion) and other smaller Merc units of this era. No state sponsorship. These are the do it yourself units who have worked for everything they have. Much different attitude here I think. An interesting divide.
So lets talk size of this Merc Mech Force. How do you guys feel about my 36 regiment ceiling? Too big or too small?
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I'd think if the Lyrans have Hesperus II they'd probably have a personal "army"/defence force of the Hesperus II family who exist as Mercs but likely are little more than House troops dedicated to Hesperus with all the toys
For the Dracs The Ronin have been around for a long time warriors with no lord maybe not in service with the Combine though
The Illician Order is part religious I think based originally out of Italy IIRC they were made proper merc after the Amaris Coup. With religion and Terra as factors they could be huge in organisation
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My only real question comes from the Grave Walkers, and when they went from said Battalion to two regiments. The Succession Wars were a hard time for most merc units, but we know they were at 2 regiments, plus full dropship and support units by 3025. They were financially set, but unless there are things in newer products, I would be unsure of when that growth happened. All we really know is that they served everywhere at some point during the succession wars and had a proud history until their shattering during the clan invasion, and were doing very well for themselves under their Lyran employ for those 25 years we know of.
36 regiments may be about right for the bigger, well known units. But for every Northwind Highlanders unit or what have you, there's probably 3 or 4 battalions serving elsewhere. As others have said, there's also the cases of major manufacturing firms and planets, where they'd likely have private security forces in their employ, and places for recently dispossessed 'Mechwarriors picked up thanks to their patronage with their associated houses.
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I was going to have the Foreign Legion as a Terran creation of this time as well. Yes the 6 regiments of the Legion had been around but perhaps this is when they acquire Mechs. Essentially offering a spot to dispossessed House Mechwarriors stemming the efforts of the Canopians and other would be employers. Ice Hellion what do you think?
That's a good idea. With Earth under one command, you have to find a new source of raw recruits and the idea of a prestigious unit being able to attract a lot of the available 'MechWarriors/Soldiers is quite good.
But do you really want to make them an all 'Mech forces?
The 13th French Demi-Brigade (I dropped the Royal along the way) and the 1st French Regiment could be but the other units could be what they are on paper (ie infantry and armoured units).
This would make the full French unit something of a flexible combined-arms unit with 2 'Mech, 2 Infantry, 2 Armoured Regiments and with 0.5 Support Regiment (training/HQ/Air Support/...).
This last 0.5 coming from the Demi-Brigade.
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I forgot to say that these units could also be used in an independent way (like today) with one or several units being sent on a mission or in support of bigger units depending on the contract and employer.
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I'd think if the Lyrans have Hesperus II they'd probably have a personal "army"/defence force of the Hesperus II family who exist as Mercs but likely are little more than House troops dedicated to Hesperus with all the toys
The Lyrans do not "have" Hesperus II at this time. While it is a shared world the Hegemony controls the young industry that will one day become the underground factory fortress of Defiance Industries.
I was thinking that the Lyrans might look down on mercenary forces at this time. Their view and near reliance may have evolved over time. Plus it might be a neat twist to have such an opposite way of thinking for the Commonwealth.
For the Dracs The Ronin have been around for a long time warriors with no lord maybe not in service with the Combine though
While I am sure individual Ronin may exist at this time their big appearance doesn't come until the Edict of 2650. So I will be going in another direction if I create a house merc unit for Kuritas. Perhaps they are Death to Mercs to begin with??
The Illician Order is part religious I think based originally out of Italy IIRC they were made proper merc after the Amaris Coup. With religion and Terra as factors they could be huge in organisation
Is the Illician Order religious??
Ice, I am thinking that the Foreign Legion will be one of the primary forces involved in our Minor Periphery Operations during the Reunification War. Yes I think they will be fully Mech equipped with each unit being so outfitted early in the war. Perhaps the Legion draws Mechwarriors from all over the InnerSphere - translation all six Houses. Maybe the worse problem cases sent to the great beyond never to be heard from again. I do think they will be a combined arms unit that is in a state of flux. Armor and infantry to begin with obviously as Mechs are added to their commands.
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Not religious (my mistake away from books)
According to Sarna they were a Miliary Order formed mostly from warriors that voluntarily chose to leave commands
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Illician_Lancers (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Illician_Lancers)
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The Lyran's have their Household troops Liaison so they could be using them instead of merc's pre succession wars.
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Well I did think of a possible Steiner merc group called the Freikorps based on the ancient middle ages. Also the Draconians would be the Kurita group whose infamy for harshness for the slightest reason makes them dreaded. Each would be about 2 BattleMech regiments but they just didn't grab me and fit the setting for some reason.
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Steiner could be employing House Troop Regiments - Think units like Stealthy Tigers, Blackstone Highlanders, Storm's Metal Thunder etc as their merc contingent, all have ties to a specific world in the Commonwealth (the three above Tamar, Inarcs and Loxley), in the SD setting the central governement encourages the planetary rulers to raise a unit (regiment?) which the LCAF then contracts when needed at other
times they garrison their homeworlds.
Kurita, instead of 1 (or more) large commands, I could see having a number of small units (Company to Battalion sized) which they class as Ronin who sell there services to local lords or the DCMS when needed.
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Kurita, instead of 1 (or more) large commands, I could see having a number of small units (Company to Battalion sized) which they class as Ronin who sell there services to local lords or the DCMS when needed.
A bit like the Arteson Dark Horse unit ;)
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Hmm, well House Troop Regiments could incorporated into the Friecorps idea but are we talking apples and oranges? Mercenaries are really going through their modern birth at this time so their incarnations could be wildly different. It does bring up the issue of Noble Forces. Do u guys think there would be more or less of these units at this time? While Mech proliferation has yet occurred in significant numbers the power of local lords maybe greater now more then ever. There are no HPGs and communications are difficult across the vast realms of the
InnerSphere Inner Sphere. What do u think?
[Edit: Sorry Tak, but the combo Inner Sphere irritates the crap out of me. It's TWO words :D]
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My personal feeling is that as Battlemech tech moves from primitive to standard we'll see regional and planetary lords acquiring and expanding their forces across the inner sphere (ok knightmare?) and periphery, the primitive designs will probably form the core of the early mercenary forces as well.
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My personal feeling is that as Battlemech tech moves from primitive to standard we'll see regional and planetary lords acquiring and expanding their forces across the inner sphere (ok knightmare?) and periphery, the primitive designs will probably form the core of the early mercenary forces as well.
I do agree with that idea.
Inner Sphere forces will sell their old units for more advanced ones or put them into caches and when they realise that the tech jump is really big, sell them or forget about them.
InnerSphere
[Edit: Sorry Tak, but the combo Inner Sphere irritates the crap out of me. It's TWO words :D]
He really is the WoB ;D
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Sorry to be a SphereInner....umm....sinner....blessed be Knightmare most merciful spell checker. {This reminds of that scene from Murder by Death when Cow on wall corrects Peter Sellers} :D
Before there is an interdiction back to the subject at hand. Would you already have a proliferation of primitive designs thought the Human (space) Sphere? The year of our publication will be 2600 so going by the list below;
Terran Hegemony - Mackie (2439)
Lyran Commonwealth - Mackie (2459)
Federated Suns - BattleAxe (2459)
Draconis Combine - Gladiator (2468)
Free Worlds League - Icarus (2470)
Capellan Confederation - Firebee (2472)
Taurian Concordat - Toro (2484)
Outworlds Alliance - Locust (2549)
Magistracy of Canopus - Wasp (2579)
Rim Worlds Republic - ??
As you can see all the major states of humanity have had the ability to construct BattleMechs for at least 21 years and in case of the Inner Sphere over a century before the start of the Reunification War. That gives you a lot of time to build up your Mech forces. Now at this time aren't lords of the Inner Sphere more powerful because of the lack of effect interstellar communications? Wouldn't they be the primary builders and shakers prior to the founding of the Star League and the Reunification War? House Military development had to have gotten a boost thanks to the League. So there could be a load of primitive tech Mechs out there.
Incidentally it helps the Friekorps story I think that they were a bunch of House Troops Regiments disbanded or disenfranchised by the Star League. Driven out of direct service to their Lords mercenary service could be a fun solution.
But back to topic Size of Noble and Mercenary Forces.....
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Human (space) Sphere?
This is the "proper" or canonical way of describing all of human space in BattleTech. The Inner Sphere only refers to non-periphery nations. It's an easy way to distinguish between the Great Houses, the Periphery states and the whole collective lot.
My apologies for derailing your topic. Peace of Blake be with you always.
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No apologies necessary fellow Terran supremacist! ;)
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My apologies for derailing your topic. Peace of Blake be with you always.
Next time, he will want the Star League to bring light on us all.
Would you already have a proliferation of primitive designs thought the Human (space) Sphere? The year of our publication will be 2600 so going by the list below;
The starting year for 'Mech production is one thing but the different model development from that time to 2600 is another one and this is the one that interest us more.
The timeline in Era Digest Age of War could help us as it lists the introduction year of a lot of designs.
And the Rim Worlds Republic acquired the BattleMech in 2469
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The timeline in Era Digest Age of War could help us as it lists the introduction year of a lot of designs.
And the Rim Worlds Republic acquired the BattleMech in 2469
Thanks Ice, I'll take a look at that. Do we know what the first RWR Mech was??
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The timeline in Era Digest Age of War could help us as it lists the introduction year of a lot of designs.
And the Rim Worlds Republic acquired the BattleMech in 2469
Thanks Ice, I'll take a look at that. Do we know what the first RWR Mech was??
At work, but I think it may be a primitive Phoenix.
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The timeline in Era Digest Age of War could help us as it lists the introduction year of a lot of designs.
And the Rim Worlds Republic acquired the BattleMech in 2469
Thanks Ice, I'll take a look at that. Do we know what the first RWR Mech was??
At work, but I think it may be a primitive Phoenix.
Primitive Phoenix = 2474