OBT Forum
General BattleTech => Alternate Universe => Shattered Dawn => Topic started by: muttley on December 28, 2016, 11:24:58 AM
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Does anyone have any notes as to where the storyline was going to go into the Succession Wars? I was re-reading the Sourcebooks & BTA's 90th HA Black Tigers stories and wondering.
Thanks
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I have a ton Mutt, just ask away!
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Awesome- thanks!
Who attacked the Republic first? My money is on The Marik.
How badly were the Talithan Borderers hit in the early stages?
Did Kurita go anti-mercenary early on or just exploit them?
How early did Jennifer take over the LC, was Robert Archon at the start?
Did the Republic survive the 1st Succession War- or make it through to the 3000s?
More later, bite sized chunks to digest
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House Kurita attacks the Republic first in September 2785 when the Ronin Regiments under the command of General Daisuke Toyotomi strike at the Terran worlds of Lambrecht, Kervil, Telos IV, Lonestar, and Chaville. This is part of Operation Katana which aims to restore Dieron to the Combine as the 5th Military District. It is in direct competition with Operation Khopesh under the command of General Ramses Vron who strikes at the Lyran worlds of Trolloc Prime, Gram, Chimpaw, Kingtribel, and Shimosuwa. Their goal is to setup Vega as the 5th Military District of the Combine. Its a race folks and the first one to conquer their objective wins!
The Talithan Borderers were hit pretty badly by Operation Avalanche under the command of Captain-General Kenyon Marik but I think the Oliver Borderers got hit worse. 3 Talithan Borderers were destroyed by the massive Free Worlds League invasion while 1 withdrew to another world. However, 4 Oliver Borderers were destroyed by Marik and another 1 was forced to retreat.
Kurita needs every able regiment they can get in the war and while they always try to exploit mercs to the fullest did not ban them.
The transfer from Robert to Jennifer was on the canon timeline but his illness may not have been so natural in origin. ;)
Shattered Dawn was an alternate universe where the Terran state did make it all the way up to the Clan invasion but for specifics stay closer to the 1st Succession War.
Chew on that and umm yes you owe someone money cause it was the Dragon and not the Eagle who struck first.
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Shucks!
Did Barbara Liao launch a full invasion aimed at Chesterton? It looked like she wanted to annihilate the resident 4th Crucis Lancers as well.
Was the 1st War as brutal in Shattered Sphere? It looked like the TR kept a higher tech base and was in better shape than (as Herb calls it) the Deadgemony.
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Lets see, Barbara Liao is the fourth Successor Lord to claim the First Lordship in January 2787. Later that month she orders assaults into Andurien space to begin. This is the start of Operation Anvil which intends to seize the entire Duchy of Andurien for the Capellan Confederation. 13 star systems targeted in 4 waves. Four systems at a time for the first three waves with a final single assault against Kanata. The first wave targets Antipolo, Guangzho, Hudeiba, and Deschenes. It isn't until November 2787 in the aftermath of his defeat on Procyon that Kenyon Marik redeploys his forces from the "battered" Terran front to conduct Operation Pathfinder - the infamous route to Sarna.
It isn't until October 2790 that the Capellans realizing that there is little to fear from the battered House Davion, the Capellan military begins major offensive operations along its shared border. The Capellans main target is the Chesterton Worlds which they have long claimed despite Federated Suns “occupation†for many years.
In some ways the 1st Succession War is more brutal than in canon yes but in others Shattered Dawn keeps a glimmer of light that was all but stamped out. Herb's Deadgemony which I find quite solid in the main setting suffers from a lack of central leadership which doesn't happen here. Aside from the Last Cameron there are several national Terran figures who unite the regions of the New Republic into a single state before the war. Yes they have a slightly higher tech base that lingers on to the 3020s.
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So what would have been the outcome of SW-I, SW-II & SW-III if SD had continued?
Did it manage to kick the invaders out? Did it even manage to expand, it would almost have had to to survive without the tech advantage once enjoyed by the TH.
I never really liked the plunge into the chaotic abyss following the Clan invasion and the sudden fluidity of nation states which had remained essentially static for centuries suddenly going fully feudal and people no longer caring who ruled them. If they did it never ever had any effect except in the Sarna March where the Davions showed their French origin by surrendering to the first Liaoist to come along. Particularly annoying was the increasingly incoherent C* and FS/LC plots.
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Hey CJvR! Haven't heard from you in a while. Hope all is good bud.
Well that is a lot of info to disclose specifically so I will be general here. If you have a more specific question please ask. The Terrans did take a pounding from Kurita and Marik during the 1st War and even had to fight Liao and Davion at different points too. Gradually the Republic took back their systems and afterwards remained largely neutral as the Great Houses fought for dominance. Tech did suffer as in the canon timeline but not to the same degree for example Warships survived but the Republic maintained an edge.
As for general critiques I do have to agree that people lost their minds at times in the main line story.
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2016 sucked but hope remains for a better 2017.
I have been around now and then but the place have been rather desolate since both SD & Kapteyn dried up.
One would think the TR had to expand somewhat to survive the SWs, but perhaps it could expand internally, expensive perhaps but in the end probably cheaper than waging all out war for bombed out worlds.
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The Republic sort of played a ComStar role after the 1st Succession War which is a return to Terran Hegemony policies prior to the Star League.
Sorry to hear about your 2016, hope your 2017 is much better!
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When did the TR re-conquista complete?
So how close would the SD-SWs outcome parallel the canon universe?
How far into the tech abyss did the IS fall? WS survived, did your R-class make it (it seems like that was an angle in TRO-2800? SL tech survived, at least in some % in the house armies?
With C* neutered did the TR do the dark deeds of Holy Shroud and fan the flames of war?
And naturally what was the plans for the clan invasion (or the Return of the deserters as I like to call it). I suspect there would be enough bad blood between the HAF and the Clans to fill several ocean worlds.
It would to be hard to maintain the TR without the massive advantages that the earlier Hegemony state had or to get enough calm in SW ground zero to restore the edge the TH once enjoyed.
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Pretty much by the end of the 1st Succession War. While there were a few border planets here and there which changed hands over time the Republic is pretty much back to its claimed territory by 2820. Then there is a Terran Civil War....
Close but different. One of the things I love about alternates is the more things change the more they stay the same. So while the setting may be dramatically altered in ways certain events or characters are still easily recognizable. It is hard to quantify really.
Pretty far into the tech abyss in much the same way as canon but there again are changes. Like the Dark Ages of Medieval Europe after Rome there were technological advancements but nothing which could match the glory of Caesar. For example a limited number of Warships survive and still function but new Missile Boats (Dropships armed with capital missiles) have replaced them as the kings of naval combat. These smaller craft are much less visually impressive and rely on Jumpships to transport them into battle but in all other ways are more formidable then left over Warships. So you do have progress of sorts which I think the canon timeline misses out on. Other proven technologies also see "improvements" while "overly complex" but remarkable Star League advancements disappear in much the same way.
Your question on ComStar brings me back to the Terran Civil War which does much to change things in the setting. The death of Amanda Cameron and Jerome Blake leaves Ian Sinclair and Arnold Collins former comrades locked in a brutal struggle for control of the Republic which extends into ComStar (Corporate types like Schwepps vs Religious nuts like Toyama). The Houses are unable to intervene overtly due to material exhaustion as both sides vie for supremacy. Sinclair emerges victorious and Collins flees to the Rim Protectorate setting up a new nation of Terran expats bent on revenge. ComStar is sundered with the Houses moving to seize control over their interstellar communications you have a radically different situation. More technology is lost here and in the 2nd Succession War which follows. However Terra and to a lesser extent the Rim maintain some lostech secretly.
Our "Clan Invasion" is something I really still do not want to discuss as it is so radically different and cool I would still love to develop it further. Needless to say that 3050 is a long way off. ;)
I think you'd be pleased to see how it played out CJvR. The Terrans resume their old central arbiter position in the InnerSphere until the 4th Succession War. They are ham strung by material shortages but steadfastly maintain their position as best they can.
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Interesting developments.
So the nuke taboo never developed, at least not in regards to orbital warfare? Or were you going to introduce new nastier missiles? GBs will never displace WSs without resorting to nukes under the current design & cost regs.
Holding a civil war after SW-I sounds like the most moronic thing imaginable, no doubt a great deal of morons were involved in it. I dare a guess that the Collins faction will be involved in the Clan invasion in some fashion, them being setup in the rim is just very convenient (even if it is in a von Stang manner).
The fracturing of C* could have some seriously nasty consequences, it will allow the successor states to much further apart than they did in the original universe where the C* fracturing didn't occur until the houses had come to grudgingly accept each others existence and the benefits of interstellar communications. If the C* net fractures into national components before SW-II it would probably end most cross border communications as well as making HPGs priority military targets rather than neutral ground, that will furn the SWs even nastier and darker.
Too bad you didn't develop that timeline fully it sounds very interesting.
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The nuke taboo is a bit overblown in my opinion. Gun/Missile boats armed with capital missiles, which yes would have eventually evolved in a manner similar to subcapital weapons, can over come Warships without nukes. Numbers my friend, as Missile Boats begin to proliferate for a plethora of reasons (dropships can be constructed on planet, they are a cheaper investment, especially when you throw in the nuclear factor) Warships begin their rapid decline (orbital facilities are fragile and hard to defend, massive investment, and one good nuke strike blows it all up). It is a natural development. Greater numbers of Missile Boats versus a few Warships and you can see why those large vessels become important back ups.
Most morons don't realize war is a terrible thing until they are dead and maybe not even then. House Collins becomes the fourth major Periphery power which is a cool thing. Neat to have a Rim nation around as much as it is a Terran one. ;)
The fracturing of ComStar was one of those events in development that we never tackled in detail. There are checks on the complete breakdown of interstellar communications such as Terra's monopoly over certain key HPG components other Houses would have to reverse engineer in order to become truly independent. It is an intriguing thought project to see the consequences of such developments.
You never know CJvR, Shattered Dawn could be resurrected one day but heavy revisions would need to occur and right now I am having fun with my Clarion Call setting.
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So which side of SW-IV did the TR end up on? A formal LC-FS alliance would be a mortal threat to the TR.
Without C* Explorer Corps how did the Clan war trigger? The Collinites? Did the Wolf Dragoons happen and if so did the TR hire them?
EDIT:
Were you going with the canon BT sub-caps or were you to invent your own? IIRC there were some hostility towards the sub-caps for some reason.
Without nukes the traditional issue with canon cost modifiers remains, it costs at least 14 times more to mount a weapon on a dropper that on a WS ( I wish they had altered that when they revised the design rules rather than just adding a linear mod for KF drives).
Still the idea of going for a DS fighting fleet is an appealing one, sort of how the Dreadnoughts became obsolete in favor of the light fleet. Though fast DS combatants will cause issues for ASFs as well, perhaps it would cause a drift back to the old divide of dedicated space fighters (SC) and more atmospheric types (ASF)
btw: What SL tech did survive? trace amounts of everything or the most useful stuff like double heatsinks, gauss rifles and XL engines for ASFs?
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The Terran Republic was the primary facilitator of the Federated Commonwealth alliance aligned against the Concord of Kapetyn. You can imagine the 4th Succession War I assume. ;)
The sixth employer of the Wolf Dragoons was the Terran Republic who gave them the planet of Outreach as a holdfast for their service. Again see the similarities but there are subtle differences.
Again I'd like to not comment on the "Clan Invasion" maybe we will one day but not now.
I never loved sub capital weapons, I was just going to have other capital weapons which could fit on dropships adapted to do so. No reason not to. Yes new innovations would also occur as indicate. Not super Star League high tech but common sense Level 1 upgrades.
In regards to cost modifiers I figure they decline after a while say end of the 1st Succession War. As they proliferate the cost and technical knowledge spreads out.
Star League (Level 2) tech is as in canon LosTech. Examples remain here and there but they are rare and hard to impossible to fix until the Helm Memory Core that is....
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Well if the Concord was signed first I doubt they would be caught with their pants quite that far down. Also the chain of events leading up to Mad Max vs Hanse and the Dragon vs the Wolf seems unlikely to repeat too closely. The TR had better have thrown it's hat into one of those blocks because both of them would have been mortal threats.
So the Dragoons still got Outreach, that is quite a prize for a much smaller TR to hand out compared to the victory bloated FC, although Outreach would have been picked much cleaner considering that the remaining SLDF troops signed on with the TR to become the HAF would have knowledge about the place.
The loss of high tech would make the IS much weaker (certainly no Tukkayid without the SL-teched ComGuards) although if the TR manufacturing base survived and was kept running volume might compensate somewhat for that even if most of the produce was burned in the SWs. I suspect the TR civil war was hard on the advanced techbase.
Nothing like a pair of NAC30 spinal mounted on a DS to ruin the day of most WS captains (except perhaps a volley of nukes but nothing can beat that...), anything but the all mL disco ball of insta-death that the DS design regs direct you towards.
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As the 3000s dawn the Terran Republic leadership comes to a realization that it can not continue with the status quo. New techniques such as asteroid mining have mitigated the resource exhaustion that Terra continually deals with but if something ain't done soon the Republic will eventually collapse. So they facilitate Archon Katrina's Peace Proposal and negotiations with Hanse Davion. Both Houses are their natural allies in any event. So the Federated Commonwealth works.
The chain of events is different certainly but often times as we see with other alternate universes, characters you know do what they do and different stuff happens but you can see the similarities.
The Civil War was bad and the Terrans want you to think it was worse. As they rebuild they start hiding certain precious technology that would be destroyed in the next war. While still the highest tech realm they don't seem that much better off then the other Houses and often they share tech for resources. This and their neutral stance which takes hold over the 2nd and is entrenched by the 3rd Succession War helps them become the arbiter that the Hegemony once was. Of course they don't claim the First Lordship as the other Houses do but darn it all no one else can either. ;)
Exactly, larger Mammoth and Behemoth sized craft could mount such capital weapons aside from missiles. I think they'd be pretty cool. If warships continue on you might see them converted to Carriers not just of Aerospace Fighters but for Gunboats.
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If the TR is in on the kill there is one very tempting world just across the border, Irian - unless it was nuked along the way. Also the Arkab worlds along the DC border are tempting to break lose and form into a client state.
The Megaliths and Revenants would certainly fit into that vision space combat. Perhaps a revived SCS style ship able to support extended deployments... Around 1Mt, HPG, 18 DC & and an ASF regiment for protection, grav decks and supplies to support 3 DS squadrons in hostile territory - perhaps even a small repair dock. The cost would be astronomical though but to deploy such capabilities against someone lacking a response would be devastating.
Not sure about using the largest DSs types though, armoring them becomes an issue with the massive squeeze effect of the SI tied armor limit on DSs. The natural breakpoint seems to be <35kt. Perhaps something could even be done with ships <20kt
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Well there is a very different fifth Military District created by the Draconis Combine which we were eluding to early in the 1st Succession War. Might be hard to break them of from the Dragon however. Irian is always a good target but don't forget Tikonov. ;)
Well most large shipyards (500k ton or more capacity) were damaged or destroyed during the wars just as in canon. I doubt anyone could try to build a warship larger than half a million tons.
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Grabbing Tikonov after formally renouncing all claims to it isn't very nice. I assume relations with the CC had hit rock bottom for something like that to happen, it certainly makes peaceful coexistence impossible in the future.
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The Federated Suns renounced all claims to Tikonov? ;)
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No the TR did at it's formation in the treaty with the CC. The FS would naturally have no issue with grabbing as much ground as possible and damn the consequences.
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The 4th Succession War is laid out in big bold strokes but the Republic doesn't claim new territories they liberate lands from oppressive regimes like Maximillian Liao's.
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So the TR did take a bite out of their opponents?
How did the IS end up after SW-IV? It seems hard for a formal union like the Fed-Com to form with the TR stuck in the middle and a triple PU would require some sophisticated marriage arrangements. ;D
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Any marriage requires sophisticated arrangements! ;)
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Do the TR ever sign formal peace treaties with the FWL & DC? You mentioned that they essentially went back to a TA/TH stance but it is a bit hard to maintain a neutral stance when 2 of the 5 SS have DoWed you. C* was able to take a somewhat neutral stance because everyone recognized it, the TR would have trouble slipping into the same shoes.
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The Free Worlds League, yes. The Combine never does.
The Succession Wars are about becoming the First Lord of the Star League. Since the Republic does not have any claim, defends its territories fiercely, and eventually actively promotes the fact that any of the Great Houses who manage to secure the agreement of the others will become the acknowledged First Lord even the Combine essentially forgets about them. Better to beat your competitors then someone keeping your throne ready. ;)
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How long, roughly, did the Terran civil war last?
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I'll check my time line at the end of the 1st Succession War again. 2 years I believe.
Yes indeed, 2819 to 2821 is the Terran Civil War. Sinclair vs Collins. Actually much of it instigated by Toyama to cover up his murder of Jerome Blake. While defeated in the Republic the so-called Loyalists flee to the Rim Protectorate overthrowing their Terran overlords.
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SO what did the loyalists name themselves, I called them the Terran Rim in the Nike fluff because it seemed like a proper name for a loyalist faction to adopt.
Btw just out of curiosity how well do my vision of SD gunboats evolution match your own?
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Republicans (Sinclair) versus Loyalists (Collins). Everything split like ComStar (Schwepps) who supported Sinclair and the Word of Blake (Toyama) who supported Collins. While Collins is killed in the climatic battle of New Rhodes by Sinclair some of his followers escape to the Draconis Combine facilitated by Toyama who sets up his base in the Dark Nebula (Camelot Command) which is renamed Blakemore. I think the Rim Hegemony replaced the Protectorate under House Collins as ComStar and Word of Blake divided the HPGs between them.
I never developed my wide reaching concepts into actually designs other than what appeared in TRO2800 so you are paving new territory all on your own. That is one of the cool things about SD is that we had many visions in one universe from Irose to Blacktigeractual there were so many folks with great ideas. ;)
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Blakemore? More like nukemore! At least leak the location to everyone, vermin rarely thrive when you shine a spotlight on them.
Loyalists... Loyal to who? A succession crisis within the TR or was it a constitutional squabble?
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A TRO2800 question.
There are listed the Cougar and the Danais type dropships in the yard summary but they are not found anywhere else. Typo?
The Dione type is not listed as produced anywhere?
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Well the whole trigger for the Civil War plays on an unanswered question from the ComStar Sourcebook which had Toyama left alone with Blake and did he in fact kill him?
Of course there are various internal tensions as well as the Sinclair-Collins rivalry that I always had going. In 2815 the Republic officially signed a Truce with the Free Worlds League (Treaty of Connaught) and about the same time tensions with the Draconis Combine also lessened thanks to the Federated Suns offensive mainly. No formal agreement is ever reached with House Kurita but Terran armed involvement in the 1st Succession War ends in large part. With most of its territory recovered the Republic begins to rebuild and as the neutral arbiter attempts to negotiate an end to the 1st Succession War altogether. Despite being plagued by health problems Regent Amanda Cameron presses forward with peace initiatives to end the fighting throughout the InnerSphere and reestablish contact with the Periphery.
So in 2819 (May to July) Jerome Blake dies. Conrad Toyama assumes control of ComStar and begins to reorder the organization as a pseudo religion. Toyama's mysterious behavior and ComStar radical regrouping starts a CIB investigation into the death of Blake.
- Duchess Janice Hawkins of Rigel Kentarus commits suicide under suspicious circumstances. A close friend of Ian Sinclair, her suicide note implicates him in an illict relationship. Thanks to ComStar word spreads quickly throughout the Republic.
- Despite doctors warning Amanda with her family travels to Rigel Kent to attend Hawkins funeral. She dies in transit back to Earth.
- Accusing Sinclair of murder, Arnold Collins attempts to remove him from power starting the Terran Civil War.
- The Battle of Earth begins as "Loyalist" forces under the command of Arnold Collins attempt to seize the capital.
2820 (Early) Republican forces under the command of Ian Sinclair manage to drive Loyalist forces off Terra despite sabotage attempts by ComStar in support of Collins.
- ComStar at the direction of Toyama uses old and nearly forgotten fall back plans of the Republic to escape to the Rim Protectorate.
- Rogue ComStar personnel (who were either isolated or escaped Toyama's purge) led by Herman Schwepps establish Astral Networks (or AsNet) as an interstellar communications competitor.
- Most of Collins support comes from the Spinward side of the Terran Republic (Rhodesian Province, half Nanking Province, half Dieron Province and even a little bit of the Terran Province) although there are battles throughout the nation at first.
- AsNet secures contracts with the TR, FS, and LC while ComStar gets rights to DC, FWL, and CC.
- CIB releases its findings which all but charge Toyama in the deaths of Blake and Hawkins, which ultimately led to the death of the Last Cameron, via AsNet. Support falls away from Collins as word spreads.
- The crucial Battle of Fletcher begins. As the main industrial complex of the Loyalists it is a major objective for Sinclair's Republicans.
2821 - Rim Protectorate Commander Thomas Bryne is assassinated as the Loyalists easily seize control of this distant Terran possession often disstatisfied with their overlords.
- The battle of Fletcher is won by Republican forces all but dooming Loyalist resistance.
- Rim forces surge across the Lyran border to liberate several key planets like Apollo from Spheriod control. Helped covertly by ComStar it is extremely popular.
- Primus Toyama oversees the recovery of Camelot Command within the Dark Nebula which he plans to use as ComStar's new headquarters. Renaming the hidden planetiod Blakemore it is quickly restored and upgraded by ComStar techs with material taken from Terra.
- Climatic battle of New Rhodes. Sinclair kills Collins in a single Mech duel. His son and several supporters manage to escape from the Republic with the help of the Draconis Combine.
(December) Exhausted from nearly 40 years conflict the 1st Succession War ends. ComStar and AsNet both agree to abide by the Communications Protocols as laid down by Blake rather than gut the rebuilt HPG network.
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Great story line, thanks for sharing.
Just how much of the RWR did the Lyrans lose? Just the coreward region behind the Dark Nebula or the entire rim?
How deep in bed with the snakes are the Rimmers? The Combine always set off my paranoia sensors.
Dare one hope that in the SD verse something suitably nasty eventually happens to Toyama or will he continue as a Karmic escapee?
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A TRO2800 question.
There are listed the Cougar and the Danais type dropships in the yard summary but they are not found anywhere else. Typo?
The Dione type is not listed as produced anywhere?
The Danais is a canon design. See Jihad Secrets.
The Cougar as I recall was going to be a larger version of the Cheetah carrying a combined arms battalion. I don't remember why we left it out of TR2800.
The Dione is still in production at Galax, New Syrtis and Loyalty. The design was never popular with the SLDF (they preferred the Titan) and they did not produce it in the TR.
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Thanks.
Yeah I found it over on Sarna.net, and the Dione isn't a TR design which is where i was looking for it - doh!
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Great story line, thanks for sharing.
Just how much of the RWR did the Lyrans lose? Just the coreward region behind the Dark Nebula or the entire rim?
How deep in bed with the snakes are the Rimmers? The Combine always set off my paranoia sensors.
Dare one hope that in the SD verse something suitably nasty eventually happens to Toyama or will he continue as a Karmic escapee?
Your welcome, the Cameron-Sinclair love story was always so close to the center of the Shattered Dawn universe. Having it end so tragically with torrid events and stuff that leaves folks wondering is part of the whole circle coming back round.
Well House Collins manages to unite several different factions and bring back the old core of the Rim Worlds thanks to Terran expats, Draconis mercs, and ComStar aid. It is that Collins becoming the new Amaris thing but with a bit more genuine concern for the Rim that seals the deal. Anyway they manage to reclaim their old worlds from the Tamar Pact they just don't have the Spinward Arm any longer. That is something different.
The Draconis Combine always had something of an alliance with Amaris, well sort of so again we build on that. Being home to the other HPG competitor gives the Rim its own 'power base' that only the Terrans have. Toyama is building his religious order as in canon but with an eye to returning to punish the Sinclairs for their lack of faith.
Good to hear from you Irose, perhaps we left it out because of its introduction date I am not sure. Gonna have to check on the Cougar. Sure I have it here somewhere. Was it supposed to be a gunboat version of that craft?
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Good to hear from you Irose, perhaps we left it out because of its introduction date I am not sure. Gonna have to check on the Cougar. Sure I have it here somewhere. Was it supposed to be a gunboat version of that craft?
Somewhere I have notes on the Cougar but I have to dig them out- it was definitely a transport- I am fairly sure it was just a larger version of the Cheetah carrying a combined arms battalion. Beyond that I don't have a clue why we listed it as in production but left it out of the book.
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Yes new innovations would also occur as indicate. Not super Star League high tech but common sense Level 1 upgrades.
Like MRMs, RLs etc? Light ACs, LMG, Snub-nosed PPC, A-pods...
Fuel cell powered vehicles? Low tech but very effective as long as you stay away from the energy weapons.
Did you have anything specific in mind? I was always favorably inclined towards variable speed ACs, no reason it would be impossible to dial down an AC20 to AC5 to gain range. The ammo weighs the same/round anyway.
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LRM optimization for one as all systems get based of the LRM 5. 1 critical 2 tons. Thus each step up results in lighter LRMs. 10s equal 2 criticals 4 tons, 15s equal 3 criticals 6 tons, and 20s equal 4 criticals 8 tons. Interlinking advancements enables the creation of an LRM 20 which is 5 criticals and 10 tons. Only thing is Artemis FCS won't work with them but NARCs would. However that is a discovery which doesn't get made till those advanced systems return.
The AC/15 was receiving serious consideration as an innovation as were Light and Heavy PPCs. I don't really see a problem with Light and Heavy Machine Guns.
Autocannon/15
Heat: 5
Damage: 15
Minimum: -
Short: 1-4
Medium: 5-8
Long: 9-12
Tonnage: 13
Critical: 8
Ammo: 7
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...as were Light and Heavy PPCs.
Canon versions or home cooked ones?
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Home cooked originally based on the core PPC model as the ER PPC disappears. I'd have to take a look at the canon versions.
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Here they are...
Heat Damage Range Mass Space
Light PPC - 5 5 -3,6:12:18 3 2
Regular PPC - 10 10 -3,6:12:18 7 3
Heavy PPC - 15 15 -3,6:12:18 10 4
Snub-nose - 10 10:8:5 -0,9:13:15 6 2
The light one in particular would be a great weapon for lighter units. Without double heatsinks the use of the heavy one is somewhat questionable although the headhunting capability alone makes it worthwhile on any machine that can fire it without suffering a heat stroke.
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They look good except for the Snub Nose which would not be recovered technology for some time.
How about Light and Heavy Machine Guns?
I don't believe I had any ideas for lasers per say but MRMs certainly are not out of the question.
Physical weaponry would not develop until the hatchet in 3000s as canon despite our innovations.
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Heat Damage Range Mass Space Ammo
LMG - 0 1 -0,2:4:6 0.5 1 200
MG - 0 2 -0,1:2:3 0.5 1 200
HMG - 0 3 -1,1:2:-- 1 1 100
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Was over at Sarna.net and noticed that there actually is a canon super heavy combat dropship. It uses SC-waepons but still...
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Castrum
I shudder to contemplate the cost for that thing!
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Would we institute a dual docking collar rule to transport these goliaths?
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...No...
Unless it is how the entire DS system operate in the SD setting. I don't like it because it sets up yet another artificial breakpoint to break up the DS construction range. There will be no reason to build anything above the breakpoint unless you go real big, and if the BP is somewhere over 50k there is no reason ever to build anything larger than that. (Other than perhaps a few specialized designs, which is not an entirely bad outcome.) Not that Im sure 100k battle droppers would become common due to the armoring rules which becomes punishing over 50k, particularly without advanced armor types.
I generally prefer putting a tonnage limit on the JS.
A KF-core can lift twice it's ship's mass through a jump...
I used to use this house rule for compact cores:
A compact core can lift only it's ship mass through a jump - explaining the small size of military dropships and the vast cargo capacity on earlier WS models. After designs with small cargo capacity became canon I boosted it to 120% of shipmass.
There is an example of dropshuttle bays in canon ( http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Defender_(WarShip_class) ) but IIRC there are no canon rules for them.
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Btw I did start a superheavy gunship but I wasn't entirely pleased with the result so I didn't put it up in the AT section. I don't know, it feels like there is something missing, not quite right. What do you think?
Terra Nova CLASS GUNSHIP
Type: Military Spheroid
Tech: Standard + Naval
Mass: 48,000 tons
Dimensions
Length: 184.00 meters
Width: 184.00 meters
Height: 246.00 meters
Fuel: 2000.00 tons (20,000)
Tons/Burn-day: 1.84 tons
Safe Thrust: 4
Max Thrust: 6
Heatsinks:(291 free) 796 single
Structural Integrity: 150
Armor: 540 tons standard
Nose: 2500 (250)
R/L Sides: 1200 (120)
Aft: 1400 (140)
Weapons:
Arc (Heat) Type Short Medium Long Xtreme
Nose(316 Heat)
2 NAC30 (100 rounds) 60 60 60 -
4 KW (40 rounds) 16 16 16 16
6 LRM20 (180 rounds) 7(72) 7(72) 7(72) -
LF/RF(256 Heat)
8 LRM20 (240 rounds) 10(96) 10(96) 10(96) -
2 AC10 (60 rounds) 2(20) 2(20) - -
2 PPC 2(20) 2(20) - -
6 Large Laser 5(48) 5(48) - -
6 small Laser 2*(18*) - - -
AL/AR(96 Heat)
2 AC10 (60 rounds) 2(20) 2(20) - -
2 PPC 2(20) 2(20) - -
2 Large Laser 2(16) 2(16) - -
6 small Laser 2*(18*) - - -
Aft(128 Heat)
8 LRM20 (240 rounds) 10(96) 10(96) 10(96) -
2 AC10 (60 rounds) 2(20) 2(20) - -
2 PPC 2(20) 2(20) - -
6 Large Laser 5(48) 5(48) - -
6 small Laser 2*(18*) - - -
Cargo: 1613 tons
Bay 1: Small Craft ( 4 ), Cargo 2 Doors
Bay 2: Fighters ( 9 ) 3 Doors
Bay 3: Fighters ( 9 ) 3 Doors
Escape Pods: 24
Life Boats: 24
Crew: 225, 45 Officers, 30 Gunners, 60 Bay, 30 Marines
Ammunition:
100 rounds of NAC30 ammunition (80 tons)
40 Killer Whale Missiles (2000 tons)
300 rounds of AC10 ammunition (300 tons)
900 rounds of LRM 20 ammunition (150 tons)
Note:
Equipped with 540 tons of standard armor.
NACs may not use bracket fire.
Cost:
2500 million C-bills.
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Nice, one thing I was looking forward to doing was a max or near max sized aerodyne with a single NAC40 going as fast as the design could.
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Nice, one thing I was looking forward to doing was a max or near max sized aerodyne with a single NAC40 going as fast as the design could.
Like a giant ASF? Not sure how good that would be, although strafing runs with a NAC40 would be an apocalyptic sight... Although at 648 million CB for the gun alone it had better be!!! Still big aerodynes are crippled by the armoring rules, they cant get the structure needed to make the lower armor values to work.
EDIT: on a 24kt aerodyne frame...
A NAC40 will take up about 19%
SI of 70 for about 2500 armor is about 35%
Thrust of 6/9 is 39%, 5/8 is 33%
That is 93% or 87% to get a reasonably protected NAC40 off the ground leaving you either a 1680 tons or 3120 tons for the rest of the ship - depending on thrust.
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And so the Apocalypse class Gunship was born.
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I wonder how badly cap-weapons on DS are going to break the orbital bombardment rules. Firing NACs from the short range bracket against ground targets... The Mechs will need deeper bunkers to hide from that.
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I wonder if aerodynes could maintain orbital distance to fire nose mounted NACS like that.
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Perhaps, they would not be stationary but you can certainly point your nose at the planet, just make sure you have enough time to avoid falling deeper into the gravity well than you intended. But a spheroid with aft mounted guns could hover a few miles over the battlefield and blast just about anything with impunity. Perhaps some serious heavy AA needs to be developed.
The Clans might run into some serious planetary defenses when they show up.
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I was able to dig up my old notes - here is what I have for the Cougar. The stat block is for the design I was basing the Cougar on- the changes I was planning to make are detailed in the notes. Of course the design might have had other changes made before we finally released it - this was apparently something I put together as a first pass at the design. I don't have any fluff for this- I don't think I ever made it that far.
Cougar Class dropship
Cougar:
The Cougar (based on the Federation design I sent you)- can carry a combined arms battalion- 12 mechs, 12 light vehicles, a company of jump infantry and 2 fighters (basically the changes to the design are remove 2 fighter bays and 300 tons of cargo to carry the vehicles and replace the battle armor with a jump infantry company- 3 platoons)
Federation Class Dropship
Type: Military Spheriod
Use: Mech Transport
Introduced: 3077
Mass: 6400 tons
Fuel: 200 tons
Tons/Burn Day: 1.84
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Structural Integrity: 40
Heatsinks: 118 (2366)
Armor:144 tons of Ferro Aluminum Armor
Fore: 700 + 40
Sides: 640 + 40
Aft: 600 + 40
Crew: 20
Passengers: 0
Escape pods: 0
Lifeboats: 8
Bays:
Bay 1: Mechs (12) 6 doors
Bay 2: Fighters (4) 4 doors
Bay 3: Battle Armor (4 Squads) 4 doors
Bay 4: Cargo 476 tons
Weapons
Fore:
4 Large Pulse Lasers
4 ER Large Lasers
FL/FR:
4 Large Pulse Lasers
4 ER Large Lasers
AL/AR:
3 Large Pulse Lasers
3 ER Large Lasers
Aft:
2 Large Pulse Lasers
2 ER Large Lasers
Again the battle armor can be replaced with standard infantry.
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A somewhat enlarged Cheetha then, good ship for a hot LZ. Prime candidate for a GB variant... ;-)
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How would the surviving warship numbers in SD post SW-1 match the BT canon ones? SD had much larger fleets to begin with, about 4 times larger IIRC ~200 in OBT vs ~800 in SD.
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I will have to look that up CJvR. I know we had post 2nd SW numbers as a number of capital ships survived the warship die off in our universe. Not big ones and they were off limits used sparingly after that anyway. The capital armed dropship ruled the spacelanes during the 3rd SW.
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The Post SW-2 numbers would also be interesting. I was thinking about a playing ariound with WS/GB OoB for SD.