Topic: Bulldog Class Destroyer (Read 22876 times)

lrose · « **on:** July 12, 2011, 04:22:03 PM »

Bulldog Class Destroyer
In Service: 2452
Number in Service: 20
Mass: 520,000 tons
KF Integrity: 11
Sail Integrity: 4
Thrust: 4/6
Fuel: 5000 tons
SI: 70
Armor: 728 tons standard armor (Fore: 60 Fore Sides: 55 Aft Sides: 54 Aft: 55 )
Heatsinks: 2900
Docking Collars: 2
Fighters: 24
Small Craft: 4
Crew: 193 (35 officers, 158 crew)
Lifeboats: 10
Escape Pods: 20
Grav Deck: 1 (60 meter)
Cargo: 36,800 tons
Bays:
   Bay 1: Fighters (24) 4 doors
   Bay 2: Small craft (4) 2 doors
   Bay 3: Cargo (36,800 tons) 2 doots
Weapons:
Nose
2 NAC/20
4 NL55
4 Large Lasers
6 Medium Lasers
4 LRM 15

FL/FR
2 NAC/20
4 Large Lasers
6 Medium Lasers
4 LRM 15

LBS/RBS
4 NAC/30
4 NL55

AL/AR
1 NAC/20
4 Large Lasers
6 Medium Lasers
4 LRM 15

Aft
2 NAC/20
4 Large Lasers
6 Medium Lasers
4 LRM 15

Ammo
2000 Rounds NAC/20 Ammo
1600 Rounds NAC/30 Ammo
240 tons LRM 15 Ammo

Overview:
The Bulldog was designed as a replacement for the failed Ishtar class destroyer. One of the original 3 ships developed by the Concordat, the Ishtar was by far the most problematic. Design and production difficulties kept the prototype from being commissioned until 2369 and even then the class was plagued with numerous problems, both basic design flaws and reliability problems. Despite repeated efforts to overhaul the ships and improve them, the Ishtar never lived up to its specifications. Finally the Concordat Navy decided to write off the ships and develop a new destroyer in 2448 after the TCW Landmark was lost when her engines exploded. The Bulldog class was launched from the Horsham Shipyards starting in 2452 and a total of 20 would be built over the next 2 decades.

Capabilities:
The Bulldog is designed to fulfill a variety roles in the Concordat Navy. In addition to serving as an escort for the Winchester Cruisers, the Bulldogs could lead a small flotilla and served as light carriers for the fleet. Having been designed and built almost a century after the original ships of the Concordat Navy, the Bulldog benefit from the experience that had been gained over that time. As a result the Bulldog was vastly superior to the Winchester and it's design would later influence the design of the Concordat class frigate.

One of the key requirements of the new design was high maneuverability. Time and time again, smaller but more nimble Guardian class corvettes had managed to out maneuver the slow and ponderous Federated Suns warships. It was hoped that the Bulldog would be able to accomplish similar successes, despite being far larger then the Guardian. To meet these goals, the designers made the Bulldog one of the most maneuverable destroyers anywhere in known space.

While the designers did emphasis maneuverability, they did not do so at the cost of either firepower or armor. The Bulldog is one of the most heavily armored destroyers in existence and is better armored then the Winchester. Many enemy captains unaware of the ships capabilities are surprised when a Bulldog survives a barrage that would have destroyed another vessel.

The Bulldog carries an impressive array of naval autocannons and lasers. The main guns of the ship are 8 Vandenberg Arms' God's Wrath Class 30 naval autocannons mounted on the ship's broadsides. These are backed up by 10 of Vandenberg Arm's Devestator Class 20 naval autocannons. To provide the ship with a long range punch, there are 12 55 megawatt Naval Laser mounted on the fore and sides of the ships. For defense against enemy aerospace fighters the Bulldog mounts a number of lasers and LRM launchers spread across her hull. This system proved so successful that a similar layout was used on the Concordat class frigate.

In addition to the weapons it carries, the Bulldog can also transport a single division of aerospace fighters. This allows the Bulldog to serve as a light carrier for the Taurian fleets.

Deployment:
Bulldogs were commonly deployed as escorts for the Concordat's Winchester class cruisers. The ships only saw limited action during the middle of the 25th Century, mainly against Capellan raiders, it was not until the Reunification War that the ships would get their first true test in combat. The Bulldogs would participate in almost every major action of the war with the exception of Case Amber. It is believed that Marshal Santos held his Bulldogs in reserve to ensure the Concordat would retain a credible naval force in the event that Case Amber did not go as planned.

Gabriel · « **Reply #1 on:** July 13, 2011, 12:14:31 AM »

So What the ship is really a U.S. MARINE in space

Hessian · « **Reply #2 on:** July 13, 2011, 01:37:36 PM »

I like(both the design and the fluff).

Ciao
Hessian

Gabriel · « **Reply #3 on:** July 15, 2011, 12:44:12 AM »

Of Course you do

Halvagor · « **Reply #4 on:** July 18, 2011, 11:02:51 PM »

Like nearly all WarShips, it's still an eggshell armed with sledgehammers; but that's a flaw of the rules, not the way you built the ship. Still, this costs more than twice that of a contemporary Star League destroyer (the Baron, from 2520, costs 1.644 billion C-bills; your Bulldog is 4.073, only barely less than the Atreus-class battleship at 4.464 billion C-bills, with the Monsoon only 7.548 billion). Can the Taurian Concordat sustain those sorts of economies? They also have to defend everywhere, while the SLDF does not (though the FedSuns does), making it much easier for the SLDF to concentrate its forces (as H:RW points out very well, I thought), which is something the Taurians can only do at great risk, even though they have more ships than their enemies in the aggregate.

Then again, H:RW displayed that the lack of any sense of strategy more complicated than "the pointy end goes in the other guy" wasn't the result of the Succession Wars (as I once thought), but rather an innate trait of the BattleTech universe. Since your Taurian Concordat is acting much more intelligently than the one in H:RW, clearly the SLDF and AFFS will grow more intelligent, too, at which point the economic factor will doubtless begin to tell. Which brings us back to...can your Concordat afford to spend as much on two destroyers as the SLN does on a single Monsoon battleship?

lrose · « **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2011, 09:28:12 AM »

Quote from: Halvagor on July 18, 2011, 11:02:51 PM

Still, this costs more than twice that of a contemporary Star League destroyer (the Baron, from 2520, costs 1.644 billion C-bills; your Bulldog is 4.073, only barely less than the Atreus-class battleship at 4.464 billion C-bills, with the Monsoon only 7.548 billion).

That's because the cost rules are broken. The main cost of a warship is the KF Core (as it should be) but that cost is determined solely by the number of dropships a vessel can carry. If you want to build a cheap vessel just leave off the docking collars- you can build 2 Million Ton BB with no docking collars for less then the Bulldog. It doesn't make sense that the KF-Core for an Atreus (which carries 2 docking collars) is almost the the same as for the Bulldog. (the only 2 things that change are the cost of the tankage and sail. ) Just running the Monsoon's numbers real quick- the KF Core with all multipliers included (including the final x2 for warships) is about 6.183 billion CBs. Build the Monsoon with no docking collars and the cost drops to 1.371 billion CBs- a Baron KF core costs 1.3625 CBs. The ships mass needs to factor in somehow but it doesn't currently. A Monsoon's KF Core should be more expensive then a Barons (if nothing else it is the cost of the Germanium in the core) and if you have 2 ships of equal mass, the one with more dropships should cost more. But I digress..

Of course the Baron is cheaper- it has no docking collars. I could have designed the Bulldog with no docking collars to keep the costs down but I intentionally avoid looking at unit costs for warships since they are broken. If all I went by was cost I would build a 2 Million ton warship with no docking collars...

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Can the Taurian Concordat sustain those sorts of economies?

Sure they can- New Vandenberg per H:RW (p. 89) has a population of over 1 billion people at the time of the RW. If you tax each person 4 c-bills you can build a Bulldog. Warship costs are tiny when you compare them to the planetary populations. Taurus probably has a population of 2 billion at this time- tax them the same 4 c-bills and you can build 2 bulldogs. And you still have 58 other planets that you haven't taxed at all. Yes not all of the planets are heavily populated but the point is that you can easily build several warships a year for minimal taxes. (and keep in mind that the Concordat built aleast 15 wagon wheels between 2570 and 2577 so I would argue it is feasible.)

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They also have to defend everywhere, while the SLDF does not (though the FedSuns does), making it much easier for the SLDF to concentrate its forces (as H:RW points out very well, I thought), which is something the Taurians can only do at great risk, even though they have more ships than their enemies in the aggregate.

Then again, H:RW displayed that the lack of any sense of strategy more complicated than "the pointy end goes in the other guy" wasn't the result of the Succession Wars (as I once thought), but rather an innate trait of the BattleTech universe. Since your Taurian Concordat is acting much more intelligently than the one in H:RW, clearly the SLDF and AFFS will grow more intelligent, too, at which point the economic factor will doubtless begin to tell.

That is the how basis of this setting. In canon after Case Amber, the Taurians surrendered the initiative and went on the defensive. In this setting once they seized the initiative they held on to it. As long as the Taurians are willing to keep taking risks and hold the initiative they will keep the SLDF on the defensive and spread out. At which point the Taurians can use overwhelming force to destroy the SLDF piecemeal. And I would argue that in the time there have been several incidents where the SLDF has tried to act more intelligently- trying to capture Lindsay and the attack on Lothair. Unfortunately for them the TC has been smarter.

Yes the economic factor will start to affect the situation but keep in mind the SLDF's huge supply lines. Even if they build 100 warships, how many of those will needed for convoy duty or to defend supply areas? And we haven't even mentioned the fact that the SLDF is involved in 3 other wars at this time. They are spread far thinner then the TC is.

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Which brings us back to...can your Concordat afford to spend as much on two destroyers as the SLN does on a single Monsoon battleship?

I think so-for a while, but in the end the TC needs to make the war so expensive that the SL eventually decides it just isn't worth it.

Knightmare · « **Reply #6 on:** July 19, 2011, 11:10:36 AM »

Quote from: lrose on July 19, 2011, 09:28:12 AM

I think so-for a while, but in the end the TC needs to make the war so expensive that the SL eventually decides it just isn't worth it.

This is a tough sell. Getting the Star League to decide to sue for peace is paramount to dissolving the Star League - with the premise of the League (and the war which became its mantra) was sold to the masses as a means to bring all of humanity beneath a single banner. Without the Concordat, naysayers and skeptics of the new alliance will have ample room to call for withdrawal, or other integration stall tactics. Domestic issues will certainly rise in the Great Houses and the three remaining Periphery states will continue to be hotbeds of resistance for decades to come.

The success of the Reunification War was a binding glue for the nascent Star League. The grueling two decades (which did much to forge the League in its own right) also became a must "win" scenario after the investment. Not making good on that investment will undermine the League's authority.

Still, if you're going for it. I'd love to read it.

Takiro · « **Reply #7 on:** July 19, 2011, 11:57:34 AM »

Gonna have to agree with Knightmare and add this. The Star League losses the Reunification War then there is no more Star League. The greatest tangible rewards of the pact come from the conquest of the Periphery. Without them the House Lords and their subjects will quickly opt out. There may be a civil war, the establishment of another opposing alliance or a complete split.

lrose · « **Reply #8 on:** July 19, 2011, 12:08:16 PM »

Quote from: Knightmare on July 19, 2011, 11:10:36 AM

Quote from: lrose on July 19, 2011, 09:28:12 AM
I think so-for a while, but in the end the TC needs to make the war so expensive that the SL eventually decides it just isn't worth it.

This is a tough sell.

I agree - that's one of my concerns with this setting. On the one hand I don't want it to be, the TC performs spectacularly but still loses and ends up the same as in Canon and on the other hand while I think the TC can hold out for a long time, eventually the SLDF's superior resources will have to come into play.

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Getting the Star League to decide to sue for peace is paramount to dissolving the Star League - with the premise of the League (and the war which became its mantra) was sold to the masses as a means to bring all of humanity beneath a single banner. Without the Concordat, naysayers and skeptics of the new alliance will have ample room to call for withdrawal, or other integration stall tactics.

Periphery 1e says that after the assassination of General Kinkaid there was some discussion of ending the war- it was Cameron who was adamant that the war continue. H:RW doesn't touch on this but it's not totally unreasonable. The issue is getting the house lords to support- if all or most of them oppose continuing the war, it's pretty much over. That or Cameron needs a way to save face.

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Domestic issues will certainly rise in the Great Houses and the three remaining Periphery states will continue to be hotbeds of resistance for decades to come.

Agreed- but with the TC currently blowing up transports all over the FS - Alexander Davion already has a number of domestic issues. At this point Davion is pressing Cameron to either stop the raiders or he's out.

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The success of the Reunification War was a binding glue for the nascent Star League. The grueling two decades (which did much to forge the League in its own right) also became a must "win" scenario after the investment. Not making good on that investment will undermine the League's authority.

Totally agreed- without the RW the SL probably would have dissolved by 2650, if not sooner.

lrose · « **Reply #9 on:** July 19, 2011, 12:13:24 PM »

Quote from: Takiro on July 19, 2011, 11:57:34 AM

Gonna have to agree with Knightmare and add this. The Star League losses the Reunification War then there is no more Star League. The greatest tangible rewards of the pact come from the conquest of the Periphery. Without them the House Lords and their subjects will quickly opt out. There may be a civil war, the establishment of another opposing alliance or a complete split.

Sounds like a great setting doesn't it?

Takiro · « **Reply #10 on:** July 19, 2011, 04:21:24 PM »

Looking forward to it!

Knightmare · « **Reply #11 on:** July 19, 2011, 04:56:03 PM »

Quote from: lrose on July 19, 2011, 12:08:16 PM

Periphery 1e says that after the assassination of General Kinkaid there was some discussion of ending the war- it was Cameron who was adamant that the war continue. H:RW doesn't touch on this but it's not totally unreasonable. The issue is getting the house lords to support- if all or most of them oppose continuing the war, it's pretty much over. That or Cameron needs a way to save face.

I can see the Capellan Confederation and maybe even the Free Worlds League supporting an end to the war due to their innate characters and war experience. Liao was particularly opposed to the conflict. Kurita would be in it until the end. Ending the war would could bring a civil war to the Combine. Peace would make the Coordinator seem weak - ripe ground for domestic insurrection. Alexander wouldn't want the war to end either, but with the losses you've saddled the FedSuns with he'll be hard pressed either way. Ultimately it would come down to selecting either the rock or the hard place for that poor fellow.

Viola is a toss. She would depend on how far along the war is before you propose a serious end to the hostilities.

Ian would be in until the end.

Halvagor · « **Reply #12 on:** July 19, 2011, 09:22:47 PM »

Absolutely the construction rules are broken; I feel this to be true even with BattleMechs and certainly with DropShips, not to mention weapons for all unit types. We're still left with them, which is why I brought it up. Your point about the ease of paying for new ships is interesting. But what's the per-capita income, even of the heavily industrialized worlds of the Concordat? And then extend the argument, and see how many more warships the FedSuns and Star League can afford, based on their much higher populations.

While the Taurians had a larger fleet than any of the Inner Sphere powers in 2575, their fleet was the equal of the Mariks and Liaos in 2570, before 200-250 Great House ships were transferred to the new SLN.

The TC using nukes, as with their Armageddon missile cruisers is much more likely to stiffen the FedSuns & SL's resolve. You might want to have the Taurians take a leaf out of Marion Marik's page, and fight fair. That will cause less damage to the enemy forces, but also give the FedRats and HegeMonkeys fewer atrocities to play up in their propaganda machines, making it more likely for them to become war-weary. Upsetting civilians has a nasty habit of stiffening their resolve rather than making them want to throw in the towel -- that's part of what made the TC resist so hard in H:RW, after all.

I'm not so certain that Ursula Liao was against the war so much as she was against her nation participating in it; I think she was cheering the other factions on with their war efforts, hoping they'd exhaust themselves while the Confederation didn't need to "waste" money and effort on conquering the Periphery nations. I see her being very pro-war, so long as she can keep the Confederation from fighting in it.

But I'll also echo everyone else; I think this is a very intriguing setting.

lrose · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2011, 10:01:27 PM »

Quote from: Halvagor on July 19, 2011, 09:22:47 PM

Your point about the ease of paying for new ships is interesting. But what's the per-capita income, even of the heavily industrialized worlds of the Concordat? And then extend the argument, and see how many more warships the FedSuns and Star League can afford, based on their much higher populations.

Well we know the TC had the 2nd highest per capita standard of living in Human Space prior to the RW. .Overall I think we can say the TC was a fairly wealthy state prior to the RW.

As for building vessels- I would point out that in Canon both the SLDF and FS suffered huge warship losses during the RW and either could not, or chose not to make good on them. The SLDF started out with 507 Warships and ended with 434. The AFFS started out with 78 and ended the war with 38. They did make good some of their losses (the AFFS lost 51 ships between Panpour and Tantativa during Case Amber) but they did not completely rebuild their losses- why is a question I can't really answer- was a lack of funds, shipyards or interest? Your guess is as good as mine.

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The TC using nukes, as with their Armageddon missile cruisers is much more likely to stiffen the FedSuns & SL's resolve. You might want to have the Taurians take a leaf out of Marion Marik's page, and fight fair. That will cause less damage to the enemy forces, but also give the FedRats and HegeMonkeys fewer atrocities to play up in their propaganda machines, making it more likely for them to become war-weary. Upsetting civilians has a nasty habit of stiffening their resolve rather than making them want to throw in the towel -- that's part of what made the TC resist so hard in H:RW, after all.

First the TC never signed the Ares Conventions, second even if they did Cameron unilaterally threw them out at the start of the war- he can cry foul if the TC ignores the rules but looks like a hypocriye and third (and most importantly) the Ares Conventions only prohibited the use of Nukes against planetary surfaces and commercial vessels. They were legal in space against military targets so long as the attack was more then 75,000 kilometers from an inhabited planet. The Armageddons so far have only been used to attack military targets in space- Cameron can call the attacks atrocities- but according to the rules that he threw out they are not.

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I'm not so certain that Ursula Liao was against the war so much as she was against her nation participating in it; I think she was cheering the other factions on with their war efforts, hoping they'd exhaust themselves while the Confederation didn't need to "waste" money and effort on conquering the Periphery nations. I see her being very pro-war, so long as she can keep the Confederation from fighting in it.

She actually voted against the war as I recall. And is described as being reluctant to go to war like Marion Marik. Unlike Marik she chose to withhold her troops and even taxed the SLDF for all of the soldiers who traveled through the CC.

Halvagor · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2011, 10:27:34 PM »

Sure, the Taurians were smart and never signed the Ares. That doesn't mean they need to hand the SL and FS propaganda tools on a silver platter.

The Geneva Conventions actually allow the United States and NATO to summarily execute about 75% of the people they detained in Iraq and/or Afghanistan, if you read the fine print. But they don't do such, even though it's legal, because to do so would be bad press and simply help the other side with its recruitment.

Ursula taxing the SLDF for passing through her territory strikes me as an excellent example of her profiting from everyone else fighting the war when she's not. Voting against it could be done for public consumption back home, while in fact she may well have been eagerly anticipating everyone else spending so much time not worried about what she was doing. Very Liao, IMO; that's more or less what Max did with Anton Marik.

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Author Topic: Bulldog Class Destroyer (Read 22876 times)

lrose

Bulldog Class Destroyer

Gabriel

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Hessian

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Gabriel

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Halvagor

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lrose

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Knightmare

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Takiro

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lrose

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lrose

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Takiro

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Knightmare

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Halvagor

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lrose

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Halvagor

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