OBT Forum
Kapteyn Universe => The Kapteyn Universe (Player Board) => The Sphere => Topic started by: Kwic on September 17, 2013, 03:09:07 PM
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Ladies and Gentlemen of the Starlight Broadcasting Council.
As of January, 3032 the Draconis Combine has violated the terms of the Arbitrated Peace Agreement signed and agreed to by all parties, by beginning Offensive Combat Operations upon the Principality of Rasalhague.
As such the Arbitration Committee invokes the Interdiction clause hereby voting to Interdict the Draconis Combine effective immediately. Due to the severity and ruthlessness of the DCMS and DCA attacks with no regard for the civilian casualties the Interdictionis to last until Midnight Galactic Standard Time January 31, 3034.
Note that should the other members bound by this agreement begin offensive operations against another sovereign state prior to the ending of this Peace Agreement, we will also move to Interdict them as well. This does not include assisting sovereign states including the Principality of Rasalhague in the defense of their territory, worlds and people.
Formally the Votes cast for Interdiction by the terms of our agreement are as follows:
Draconis Combine votes to Interdict by proxy
Lyran Commonwealth votes to Interdict by proxy
Federated Suns votes to Interdict by proxy
Oberon Confederation votes to Interdict by proxy
Outworlds Alliance votes to Interdict by proxy
We will now call upon the remaining council members to cast their votes.
Peace Arbitration Committee.
Outworlds Alliance
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The Lyran Commonwealth throws its unequivocal support behind the motion, and will cast it's vote to interdict in person at the earliest opportunity.
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As the Principality of Rasalhague was not a signatory to the treaty, Starlight Broadcasting cannot accept the call for Interdiction based on said treaty.
Yours,
Danicia Holy
Chief Administrator
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The agreement signed by the Draconis Combine, Federated Suns, Lyran Commonwealth and Oberon Confederation clearly states no offensive actions.
This is not dependant on signatory status of the invaded party just the obligation of the signatory members not to begin offensive actions until after the end of the cease fire term.
Thus the call for interdiction by the arbitration committee should hold.
Arbitration Committee
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As previously stated, the Principality of Rasalhague was not a signatory to the treaty, Starlight Broadcasting cannot accept the call for Interdiction based on said treaty.
As the treaty stated that "All offensive operations to cease effective immediately." This was in relation to the 4th War, and additional ceasefire requirements over the five year period are only applicable to the signatories and between the signatories.
As such, Starlight Broadcasting rejects any demands for interdiction of the Draconis Combine under the treaty.
Yours,
Danicia Holy
Chief Administrator
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The agreement signed by the Draconis Combine, Federated Suns, Lyran Commonwealth and Oberon Confederation clearly states no offensive actions.
This is not dependent on signatory status of the invaded party just the obligation of the signatory members not to begin offensive actions until after the end of the cease fire term.
Quite frankly, I find the foundation of this argument inherently flawed.
Essentially, what you're asking the voting committee to do is decide if the terms of the ceasefire extend beyond the signing participants to legally include a non-signing entity. Since the term "ceasefire" wasn't defined outside of non-combat between the signers, by default the legal ramifications of broaching the agreement only extends to those parties. By your rational then, any combat can be construed as a broach of the ceasefire by any non-signing entity and therefore subject to the same penalties. Cause is irrelevant and could extend to say the FedSuns in the event they are ever attacked...Responding with any force would result in an interdiction as a broach of the "ceasefire" because the FedSuns used force against a non-signing entity. I mean, did Rasalhague recognize the terms of your ceasefire as binding?
Either way, the ceasefire is already officially over. The peace-talks took place in January 3027. It's already well into 3032. The five years are over.
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That said, I like the fact that this brings to light the very "loose" nature of some of our agreements and the creativity of Oberon.
The Terran Hegemony finds the Combine's invasion of the free nation of Rasalhague deplorable, but does not find the Combine's actions as an abrogation of the original ceasefire in spirit or on firm legal grounds. Furthermore, for the record, let the Hegemony state that an interdiction is a punishment of last resort for a clear violation of terms. Had Oberon's argument been sound, we would have supported it as such. The Hegemony will not use an Interdiction like ComStar—to further personal ends—regardless of how many individuals decide otherwise.
In this matter, the Terran Hegemony sees no violation. The Terran Hegemony votes nay.
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It is with regret, as the violations against civilians are egregious, that the CC must agree with the TH and Starlight's interpretation. Although we would like to vote for some sort of punishment for the execution of prisoners and the high loss of civilian life we see no grounds based on the treaty as it is defined.
The Capellan Confederation votes NO.
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Section agreed upon by all parties and signed
3) The duration of the terms shall be determined by the Arbitration Committee after deliberation, however the initial timeframe will be a 5 year period of no military offensive actions mounted by the involved parties including raiding. Antipiracy efforts against pirate organizations are not included at the sole determination of the Arbitration Committee.
Dates of the agreement extend to mid 3032 not January. Exact date forthcoming
The arbitration committee is supplied by the Outworlds Alliance not Oberon.
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Section agreed upon by all parties and signed
3) The duration of the terms shall be determined by the Arbitration Committee after deliberation, however the initial timeframe will be a 5 year period of no military offensive actions mounted by the involved parties including raiding. Antipiracy efforts against pirate organizations are not included at the sole determination of the Arbitration Committee.
Sadly, here's where the ambiguity of the agreement fails to live up to your claim of abrogating the ceasefire. It notes involved parties but does not clearly extend to non-involved parties.
As such, since the agreement's involved parties is clearly stated the umbrella of reasonable expectation as written would extend only to the involved parties. What you're asking "us," the non-signing parties, to do is two-fold. First, extend the arbitrated agreement—which we had no part of—to encompass all non-signing parties by creating a precedent that amends the clause to basically include, "...no military offensive actions mounted by the involved parties including raiding against arbitrating and non-arbitrating parties."
I'm sorry, but since non-signing, non-involved parties were excluded in both term and participation, the reasonable expectation of coverage does not extend beyond the signed. Nor will the Hegemony help correct an oversight made by the Arbitration Committee by creating another.
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Although the Marian Hegemony has close ties with both the Lyrans Commonwealth and Oberon Confederation and plans to continue with these ties, the case made by the Terrans will see the Hegemony vote no.
Additionally, any other case made against the Combine for its use of force would not be supported either, as the Hegemony reserves the right to use any force necessary to protect its worlds and troops. We are surrounded by large neighbors and cannot afford to voluntarily cripple ourselves.
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Members of the Council,
Although the Oberon Confederation agrees with the intentions and spirit of the Outworlds Alliance's Arbitration Committee, we can not in good conscience be a party to it on these grounds.
The terms have indeed passed where the Arbitration Committee can control our votes by proxy or otherwise. Had the Draconis Combine launched their "Offensive Operations" against the Principality of Rasalhague during that time we would have supported this action on this basis.
As a point of clarification, the terms of the Arbitration agreement that all participating members discussed and resolved to live by included the exclusion of all offensive operations to any party barring pirates during this period. The interesting portion of the line reads again "no military offensive actions". There can be no argument that the recent actions of the DCMS against the Principality of Rasalhague are a military offensive action.
Although we thank the Terran Representative for their compliments on our Creativity, perhaps they should direct their comment elsewhere, and should the Terran Government have issue with the Oberon Government or any agreement between those two parties, perhaps they should have direct discussions and leave comments such as the recent one to more proper venues.
To be clear the Oberon Confederation will support the people of Rasalhague in any and all ways possible, including using our votes on this council to interdict the Draconis Combine should the representatives of the Principality of Rasalhague call for such.
Samuel Rosen
Oberon Confederation Representative to Starlight Broadcasting.
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As the Principality of Rasalhague was not a signatory to the treaty, Starlight Broadcasting cannot accept the call for Interdiction based on said treaty.
Yours,
Danicia Holy
Chief Administrator
Chief Administrator
For clarification, does this mean that if a majority vote supports interdiction that Starlight Broadcasting will reject that decision?
Hanse Davion
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Administrator Holly,
Under the treaty no, due to the reasons specified. A seperate call for other matters would need at least 16 delegates of 23 and 3500 of 5000 votes. Two thirds majority of both in other words. A difficult prospect even in ideal circumstances.
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[OOC — Sorry Kwic, I wrote Oberon when I should have written Alliance. I forgot you ran both and was typing while looking at your title. My bad]
Although we thank the Terran Representative for their compliments on our Creativity, perhaps they should direct their comment elsewhere, and should the Terran Government have issue with the Oberon Government or any agreement between those two parties, perhaps they should have direct discussions and leave comments such as the recent one to more proper venues.
The Terran Hegemony apologies to the people of the Oberon Confederation for our offensive and—ultimately—baseless accusations. However, we do believe this is exactly the correct time and forum to discuss all aspects of a proposed interdiction, including its foundation for cause.
I don't need to remind this Board that less than a decade ago we would have neither the power nor the opportunity to discuss such a drastic action, let alone exercise one against a member of this Board. While we—the Terran people—have no stake or claim in the Combine's recent invasion, the Hegemony does have stake in preventing the same misuse of the HPG network by a Board of Directors as it would have, had our nation lived under the threat of ComStar. In this, the Terran Hegemony is more than apprehensive to vote in the affirmative for any interdiction, and will scrutinize a proposal for one to our fullest capacity.
Hence, since the Arbitration Committee—the Outworlds Alliance—did not issue clear treaty evidence that the Draconis Combine had violated its terms—perhaps in spirit, but not in action or intent—the contra proferentem, or the ambiguous terms in the treaty shall be interpreted against the interests of the party that insisted upon the term's use in their rational for interdiction.
The Terran Hegemony respects and applauds the Alliance's proposal to end the fighting between the Combine and Rasalhague, but believes their rational for interdiction to be—at this time—unjustifiable.
[OOC — Just to be clear, I'm not opposed to an interdiction because it messes with Black's timeline. Quite the contrary, as I enjoy messing with the GM, but I do believe in-character that an interdiction based on the assumption that casus belli against non-signing treaty members is covered by the terms of the treaty to be—in point of fact—a legal assumption, and therefore beyond a rational expectation under the treaty's terms given its scope and participants. There's also the precedent-setting this type of action would create for the Inner Sphere, making it more likely that interdiction would used solely for political ends as opposed to more altruistic reasons. To be blunt, the weak argument being relied upon to suggest an interdiction smells exactly like something ComStar would exercise. Therefore, we want nothing to do with it.]
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Why isn't Principality of Rasalhague in the treaty? I would think that a small nation existing between the EVIL Empire and a "reformed", and alarmingly powerful, pirate gang would look for as many treaties and reassurances as they could get. Rasalhague seems to have done nothing but sit around waiting for the other waraji to drop.
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OOC: Folks, I am going to weigh in here. KM said that the treaty ended Aug 3031. Black has said to me in numerous communications the LCAF is sitting this one out and the AFFS is hitting the Combine (which is something in of itself that does not make sense if the LCAF is sitting it out). In short? If the treaty is expired, and it's all open season, then what's to prevent a 5th War?
Look at it from the position of the Allies. The DCMS just launched a major, and I mean major invasion of a neutral buffer state. They've forced Oberon to intervene. An Oberon that is tied through marriage to the LC and through alliance to the AFFS. In short, they crossed a line, and both powers have the means and will to do something about it.
Meanwhile, the FRAC has just entered into the Regulan War, and there's a good chance that they are going to run into League troops, and there will be fighting. This might just draw in the CC, just so she can grab as much of Oriente as possible. (It's what I would do if I were the CC), this then pulls the League in two directions. While the LC isn't obligated by the terms of it's treaty to intervene there, it does give it a free hand against the Combine.
In short, Isoroku Kurita has done a very, very stupid thing. Something likely to start a war, a big war.
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IC:
Since Starlight Broadcasting has shown a reluctance to do the right thing here. I then propose the following. A trade embargo of the Combine, this would not apply to the Southern Court. Length of the embargo can be negotiated, but I think a two year embargo would work, don't you all?
Katrina Steiner
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Why isn't Principality of Rasalhague in the treaty? I would think that a small nation existing between the EVIL Empire and a "reformed", and alarmingly powerful, pirate gang would look for as many treaties and reassurances as they could get. Rasalhague seems to have done nothing but sit around waiting for the other waraji to drop.
The treaty was between the DC LC FS and OC to end the conflict between those parties. PR was up until that time quite friendly with the DC considering their acceptance of PR independence. We all know how well that has gone for them now.
The PR was laying low trying to stay out of the way and being unnoticed.
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Perhaps the LIC have screwed up and interpreted this as a possible opening to the Second Kapteyn war, and since the Lyrans have three possible frontiers waiting for developments might be sensible while the CC and FS are somewhat freer to act. It is not that long ago since the Skye revolt and the exiled rangers are still lurking. The LCAF might subsidize a few mercenary contracts as well as "volunteers and logistics support to the Oberons while preparing to back them up if the Dragon continues to advance.
Considering the Skye revolt, the generally cordial relations between Terra and Luthien (on the surface at least) and the delivery of an entire navy to the FLW just before the balloon goes up it is not an unreasonable assumption. In a second Kapteyn war the isolated LC would be a logical target prompting some caution.
Although I do tend to agree, the destruction of Rasalhague is a bit to big an event for the Lyrans to sit out even with a bit of proxy warfare through the Oberons.
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The PR was laying low trying to stay out of the way and being unnoticed.
Their mistake.
In short, Isoroku Kurita has done a very, very stupid thing. Something likely to start a war, a big war.
[OOC — Of this, there is little doubt.
The League fighting Regulus—and FRAC's entrance—is tantamount to an internal squabble (akin to the Skye Rebellion within the Commonwealth) until it isn't. Should the Confederation enter the fray they do so because it's advantageous for them to authorize the attack. Whether or not that broadens the conflict is anyone's guess, but since Oriente is already a mess I don't really see their stepping in as an escalation, but rather a way to bring stability back to the region. Honestly, it all really depends on how the Capellans advance beyond their traditional border (former Hegemony worlds may be somewhat used to new flags flying overhead, but old-school League worlds may not take too kindly to Capellan culture being forced on them.)
As for the Combine...well, Isoroku has to solidify his control of the Combine. A limited war of territory to regain lost honor would be most effective—so they're doing it. The fact of the matter is that the Combine has not broached their agreement with the allied powers, and if Oberon, the LC and the FS just left it alone I'm sure this would fizzle our accordingly. Jumping the gun IMHO heightened tensions and brought the whole invasion to the interstellar stage.
While that doesn't help the very real possibility of the Combine starting a future war, it would certainly minimize the possibility of a major one breaking out now. The fact that the allied powers have gotten all uppity over the Rasalhague invasion is like the early mobilization phases of WWI. Once it began, it was real hard to stop the inevitable. It just seems like the allied powers are so convinced or worried about the Dragon's change in leadership that they're doing the very thing they shouldn't: antagonize Luthien at a time when it needs to blow off steam so it can remain manageable.
Rasalhague is meaningless except that it offers the DC a punching bag for its armed forces. The fact that it's a thin buffer between Oberon and the Commonwealth is meaningless.
Keep in mind there is a young heir to throne in desperate need of help and support. Whether or not she makes it back to the throne is also irrelevant, it's still a golden opportunity to influence the next six decades of Combine relations—or to continue to weaken the Combine from within by fomenting internal conflict. Rather than draw armies and make a bigger mess, why not support Rasalhague and Omi with material to fight the Dragon. Then the problem(s) remain firmly within the Combine and away from everyone else?
Or better yet, want to really keep the Combine for having to make good on slights to it's honor? Don't give the Combine reason to do so. It may not stop a war, but it may prevent an unnecessary one from happening at this time...]
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OOC- KM, Mel might do that, but Katrina won't on sheer principle. As for the WWI comparison, well, name a war in Battletech that wasn't? The trouble is twofold for the Commonwealth to support Omi's Southern Court. One, and I am sure the TH would love this, it would give political ammunition to Skye, even if the cause of Skye has been set back for at least 2-3 decades, and second, conspiring with traitors to the Dragon? Well, now isn't that going to offend the Dragon's honor as well?
As for the Combine's honor, the allies have seen how much that is worth, and really don't trust it at all. (April agreement?) Perhaps the Hegemony might improve relations with the LC, but you really see the Commonwealth and DC improving relations without settling matters on the battlefield at some point? Even Mel, who's going to be a far more mellow leader than Katrina, knows she has to settle matters with this new Combine leader at some point, or he's going to use the "blowing off steam" excuse to pull all kinds of crap.
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The Taurian Concordat supports the Federated Suns question as answering to it will help us understand who has the real power here.
David Gelfmann - Taurian representative
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[OOC —
The trouble is twofold for the Commonwealth to support Omi's Southern Court. One, and I am sure the TH would love this, it would give political ammunition to Skye, even if the cause of Skye has been set back for at least 2-3 decades, and second, conspiring with traitors to the Dragon? Well, now isn't that going to offend the Dragon's honor as well?
Personally, I don't see the Hegemony making much of a fuss over the LC or anyone supporting Omi. It is a case of apples and oranges—quite honestly—in comparison to Skye, and one the Hegemony probably supports. Keep in mind that each nation is its own distinct entity and approached differently. So Terra selling arms to Skye separatists and supporting Omi might create domestic problems for said nation, but achieve very different ends in very different years. The same could be said if the Commonwealth did the same...the "enemy of my enemy"....etc. Either way, it's the Commonwealth responding to specific players and a specific set of unique circumstances.
That said, it's important to keep in mind that the Combine is very much split down the middle ideologically when it comes to the change in leadership and the reform roll back. While the bulk of the DCMS is supporting Isokuru—for a variety of reasons not limited to personal loyalty—there is a large portion of the Combine that supports Omi.
At this moment, there is a civil war being fought for the hearts and minds of the Combine's people. Supporting Omi can only help her side "win." Drawing the Combine into a major fight so the opposition can rally around fighting the gaijin only weakens Omi's position by giving the Combine an external enemy to focus on AFTER exhausting what they can get out of Rasalhague.
Remember, Omi's only a traitor if she loses the war for the Combine's soul.
At this point, it's far more dangerous in the long term to keep a guy like Isokuru on the throne—who's really Takashi 2.0—than investing in Omi and receiving the dividends for doing so.
Having the Combine focus in and on itself is far better than having the Combine focus its attentions elsewhere. A domestically troubled Combine is a weak Combine.
As for the Combine's honor, the allies have seen how much that is worth, and really don't trust it at all. (April agreement?) Perhaps the Hegemony might improve relations with the LC, but you really see the Commonwealth and DC improving relations without settling matters on the battlefield at some point? Even Mel, who's going to be a far more mellow leader than Katrina, knows she has to settle matters with this new Combine leader at some point, or he's going to use the "blowing off steam" excuse to pull all kinds of crap.
There's a huge difference when it comes to honoring gaijin and the honor the Combine people bestow and exercise among themselves. At the end of the day does it really matter if Commonwealth-Combine relations or FedSuns-Combine, or even Hegemony-Combine relations improve if the Dragon is too busy fighting itself to fight you? Not really.
Don't want to deal with Isokuru AND the DCMS? Support Omi's rebellion. At the very least, she's a useful proxy to keep Isokuru occupied by allowing him and his supporters to "blow off steam" internally rather than against the LCAF, AFFS or HAF.
IMHO, that's a much better play than going to war with the Dragon at this stage. This is a crucial moment in Combine history, if the Black Dragons manage to burn themselves out in the Combine and Omi regains control of the country, her ascendance offers the unique opportunity to affect real change in Draconis Combine culture and interstellar relations for decades to come. She might be a kid now, but she won't be forever...]
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Supporting Omi can only help her side "win."
Foreign support to a faction in a place as paranoid and xenophobic as the Combine is far more likely to be a kiss of death.
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IC:
After consultation with our allies, and other associated powers. The Lyran Commonwealth puts forward an interdiction motion against the Combine on the basis of their indiscriminate use of warship bombardment against civilian targets, killing hundreds of thousands. These are clearly acts that are against the accepted laws of war in every realm in the Inner Sphere. They have gone so far as to leave the capitol city of Rasalhague a broken, unpopulated ruin, and have left millions injured and homeless.
This action must not go unpunished, lords and ladies of the Inner Sphere, for it would set a bad precedent, one that would allow indiscriminate use of any and all weapons available against planetary targets without regards to civil populations. This was nothing more than a massacre, plain and simple, and any claim this is simply political belies the simple truth, the Draconis Combine slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people it claims are it's own citizens. As a nation that has recently dealt with it's own rebellion, I would proffer that this is no way to expect that this war will end with a Rasalhague willing to rejoin the Combine, but instead, one willing to kill Combine soldiers any way it can.
There should be an interdiction on the basis of common accepted Interstellar Law. We should vote for on the basis of morality, as I expect noone here would condone the deliberate murder of hundreds of thousands of innocents. Even the TH has attempted to make amends for the "Skye incident," I see no such actions on the part of the Combine. None whatsoever.
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There should be an interdiction on the basis of common accepted Interstellar Law. We should vote for on the basis of morality, as I expect none here would condone the deliberate murder of hundreds of thousands of innocents. Even the TH has attempted to make amends for the "Skye incident," I see no such actions on the part of the Combine. None whatsoever.
So the Commonwealth is suggesting we punish the Combine on the basis of a commonly accepted Interstellar Law? What commonly accepted INTERSTELLAR LAW are you referring to?
After consulting the history books, the only commonly—as in more than one participating nation—Interstellar Laws are the now-defunct Ares Conventions which your ancestors conveniently shredded at the start of the Succession Wars.
So if you are referring to the Ares Conventions, would the Commonwealth also be referring to their violations of the Ares Conventions and the violations made by every Great House since the fall of the Star League? Violations that even now my country is struggling to repair? For that matter, how many Combine or League worlds still bear the scars of past Lyran bombardments, and how many Lyran worlds still bear theirs? Should we start referring to or punishing those violations now? The Hegemony is unaware of a statute of limitations on the orbital bombardment of civilian targets?
If the Commonwealth is indeed referring to the Ares Conventions as said-commonly accepted interstellar laws then the Hegemony is prepared and ready to vote "Yes" for the interdiction of every nation that has violated the so-called "commonly accepted interstellar law."
Now, if the Lyran Commonwealth is proposing that we—the nations of the Inner Sphere and Periphery—reinstate the Ares Conventions then we should pursue that topic, and other topics pertaining to their enforcement—such as interdiction. Then and only then will the Terran Hegemony support the rule of "Interstellar Law" and associated punishments for its infringement, as such law and enforcement will be available to this board.
Until then, the Terran Hegemony sees no legal or moral basis for action against the Draconis Combine or any other sovereign nation for that matter at this time.
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<clap, clap> What a lovely straw man argument. I am referring to the precedent set by the Capellan Confederation in the wake of the Alcyone bombardment that has generally been agreed to by all warship owning states, unless of course, the Hegemony has no intention of agreeing to such a precedent?
And as for statutes of limitations, I would propose the doers of such actions you have discussed are long since dead, but since you want it, you got it. Let's bring the Ares Conventions back. The Commonwealth is more than willing to live by such an agreement, and if the Terran Hegemony has appointed itself the enforcement body, as it obviously has...then we see no issues. Congratulations, you just appointed yourself policeman of the Inner Sphere! <opens arms wide> I am sure we will all sleep well in our beds tonight knowing Officer Hamilton is on the beat! We'd just better pray he's in a good mood...he is a little light on the trigger, you know.
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<clap, clap> What a lovely straw man argument. I am referring to the precedent set by the Capellan Confederation in the wake of the Alcyone bombardment that has generally been agreed to by all warship owning states, unless of course, the Hegemony has no intention of agreeing to such a precedent?
And as for statutes of limitations, I would propose the doers of such actions you have discussed are long since dead, but since you want it, you got it. Let's bring the Ares Conventions back. The Commonwealth is more than willing to live by such an agreement, and if the Terran Hegemony has appointed itself the enforcement body, as it obviously has...then we see no issues. Congratulations, you just appointed yourself policeman of the Inner Sphere! <opens arms wide> I am sure we will all sleep well in our beds tonight knowing Officer Hamilton is on the beat! We'd just better pray he's in a good mood...he is a little light on the trigger, you know.
Again, the Hegemony asks where this "precedent" has "generally been agreed to by all WarShip owning states?" If the Lyran Commonwealth can point the Hegemony to some document or accord agreed to by ALL WARSHIP OWNING STATES then the Terran people would be willing to utilize it as the foundation of a new set of interstellar laws to be discussed and perhaps accepted by all WarShip owning states.
Once again, it would seem the Commonwealth has missed the point of the Hegemony's earlier statement, which was to open the door to a discussion with the hopes of creating a cohesive and clear set of—to use the Commonwealth's words once again—"commonly accepted interstellar laws." Sadly, it seems the Commonwealth's vitriol extols exactly what the Hegemony has come to expect: The Commonwealth cries Terran conspiracy when they don't get their way.
Now, if the Lyran Commonwealth is proposing that we—the nations of the Inner Sphere and Periphery—reinstate the Ares Conventions then we should pursue that topic, and other topics pertaining to their enforcement—such as interdiction. Then and only then will the Terran Hegemony support the rule of "Interstellar Law" and associated punishments for its infringement, as such law and enforcement will be available to this board.
At no point did the Terran government suggest becoming the policeman of the Inner Sphere.
If anything, the Terran people applaud the Commonwealth for broaching the topic of commonly accepted interstellar law, but rightly pointed out that in the absence of one it would behoove "us"—the nations of the Human Sphere—to either revive or create a new one before anymore false allegations of violations occur.
If the Commonwealth believes sarcasm and petty name calling is a suitable shield to hide their impotence at being "foiled again by those dastardly Terrans" by remaining the voice of fairness and reason, then the Hegemony understands your reluctance to revive the Ares Conventions or pave the way for their discussion.
As such, since the Lyran people seem more interested in their own needs than the needs of the Inner Sphere, the Terran Hegemony proposes opening a discussion to revive the Ares Conventions with the express purpose of enforcing them through this body and the punishment of Interdiction.
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Gee, the Terrans agree with us? This might actually be a red letter day. By the way. We don't say "dastardly Terrans." We just call you what you are. Bullies.
And nope, we are in no way reluctant to reopen the discussions about the Ares Conventions. You opened the door, pal, let's see if you can handle the responsibility. Somehow, I doubt it. But hey, you might surprise us. I admit you willingness to open talks with us was "reassuring." But the greatest navy in the Inner Sphere willing to put shackles on it's own behavior after some of what it has done in recent times? Hmm, I find that a positive development. Let's see if your actions match the words, Terran. By the way...we have nothing to lose from such an agreement, it would be nice to have a treaty that restrains Terran Warships from their "surgical strikes" that they up until recently, had a predilection for.
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To start a real discussion I would suggest the following as part of a new Ares Convention.
Use of nuclear weapons on a planetary target.
Use of Chemical or biological weapons on any target.
Using warships to bombard a civilian target on a planet. To be specific, a target with no command and control or military units present.
Feel free to add or comment.
Ambassador Han
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There are no interstellar laws. If you all want to agree to some go ahead, but I doubt everyone will sign on.
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The original Ares Convention Articles before they were rescinded in 2579 by the Star League
Article I forbade the use of nuclear weapons against all civilian targets and planets and military targets within 75,000 kilometers of a planet.
—Amend to use of nuclear weapons within a planetary atmosphere
Article II forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not near populated areas.
—Amend to forbid the use of orbital bombardment on planets with no clear military, command or communication value.
Article III established the white flag with adorned red S as universal symbol of surrender and truce, which all signatories agreed to abide by.
Article IV established the right of safe passage under a sign of truce and conditions for its loss.
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities—unless a military target was within the city—and against civilian targets.
Article VI forbade research, development, and use of biological and chemical weapons.
Appendices
Appendix A comprised of the definition of combat forces, ranging from definitions of infantry to aerospace forces. Since the Conventions were supposed to be followed by uniformed combatants, extensive definitions of uniforms were also part of this section.
Appendix B defined what a valid military target during warfare was.
Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Notable for their ridgy.
—Suggest Amending to include specific definitions for pirates, irregular forces, etc.
Appendix E clarified the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendered forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory.
Appendices F through H defined the nature of military force and hostile action. Aside from seeking to limit open conflicts, these appendices introduced the idea of conducting proxy battles via sports matches, simulation games, or duels.
Appendices I through L defined weapons of mass destruction. The restrictions for their use were so strict that not even tear gas could be used against foreign troops.
—Amend to remove non-lethal forms of chemical weapons.
Appendices M through O defined boards of inquiry and investigative commissions for violations of the Ares Conventions. In practice, this should be by Starlight.
—Amend to create an investigative branch of StarLight for the sole purpose of reporting violations back to this board for voting purposes.
Appendix R defined the allowable uses of espionage and intelligence operations. Unlike the rest of the Conventions, this appendix was far less restrictive and only banned outright assassination.
Appendix X
—Add interdiction to the Appendix as an allowable punishment for violation of this convention by adhering board members' nations.
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As long as we avoid recreating the Star League, I can live with that.
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(OOC-This isn't PeaceTech.)
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As long as we avoid recreating the Star League, I can live with that.
You already have 20 factions who wish to do that in their own way...
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The Star League is for mamas boys and wannabe white hats.
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The original Ares Convention Articles before they were rescinded in 2579 by the Star League
Article I forbade the use of nuclear weapons against all civilian targets and planets and military targets within 75,000 kilometers of a planet.
—Amend to use of nuclear weapons within a planetary atmosphere
Agreed.
Article II forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not near populated areas.
—Amend to forbid the use of orbital bombardment on planets with no clear military, command or communication value.
There would need to be clarification of that. I can see some loopholes a warship could jump through. Alternatively a blanket-ban on orbital bombardment although I suspect that wouldn't be acceptable to everyone.
Article III established the white flag with adorned red S as universal symbol of surrender and truce, which all signatories agreed to abide by.
Article IV established the right of safe passage under a sign of truce and conditions for its loss.
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities—unless a military target was within the city—and against civilian targets.
Article VI forbade research, development, and use of biological and chemical weapons.
Agreed.
I'd also suggest a specific statement that signatories will also consider all the above articles to apply in their actions towards non-signatories except in retaliation for actions that would contravene them. I believe that non-signatories were considered fair game under the originals: let's try to take the moral high ground on this.
Appendices
Appendix A comprised of the definition of combat forces, ranging from definitions of infantry to aerospace forces. Since the Conventions were supposed to be followed by uniformed combatants, extensive definitions of uniforms were also part of this section.
Appendix B defined what a valid military target during warfare was.
Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Notable for their ridgy.
—Suggest Amending to include specific definitions for pirates, irregular forces, etc.
How do you propose to define them?
Appendix E clarified the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendered forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory.
Appendices F through H defined the nature of military force and hostile action. Aside from seeking to limit open conflicts, these appendices introduced the idea of conducting proxy battles via sports matches, simulation games, or duels.
Appendices I through L defined weapons of mass destruction. The restrictions for their use were so strict that not even tear gas could be used against foreign troops.
—Amend to remove non-lethal forms of chemical weapons.
I'm not clear why this is desirable. Reasons?
Appendices M through O defined boards of inquiry and investigative commissions for violations of the Ares Conventions. In practice, this should be by Starlight.
—Amend to create an investigative branch of StarLight for the sole purpose of reporting violations back to this board for voting purposes.
Appendix R defined the allowable uses of espionage and intelligence operations. Unlike the rest of the Conventions, this appendix was far less restrictive and only banned outright assassination.
Appendix X
—Add interdiction to the Appendix as an allowable punishment for violation of this convention by adhering board members' nations.
Given that the original Conventions effectively had no enforcement, some improvement would be in order.
Being more specific, I recommend that following the presentation of sufficient evidence and a simple majority vote (not 2/3rds) excluding the accused, any signatory who breaks the Conventions towards another signatory receive a 6 month Interdiction, extendable if such actions continue.
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Article II forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not near populated areas.
—Amend to forbid the use of orbital bombardment on planets with no clear military, command or communication value.
There would need to be clarification of that. I can see some loopholes a warship could jump through. Alternatively a blanket-ban on orbital bombardment although I suspect that wouldn't be acceptable to everyone.
—Forbid the use of orbital bombardment on planets that do not have the presence of line-units (i.e. militia only), fortifications, military-industry or do not provide C3 points.
In-game this would translate into being able to bombard planets with line-units, GF factories, fortifications and capitals. Implementation could still slow an assault down—which I believe is a key element of its in-game application—by forcing an attacker to use conventional line units against planets with only militias. This doesn't mean everyone will use orbital bombardment, but it certainly defines its in-game usage.
Article III established the white flag with adorned red S as universal symbol of surrender and truce, which all signatories agreed to abide by.
Article IV established the right of safe passage under a sign of truce and conditions for its loss.
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities—unless a military target was within the city—and against civilian targets.
Article VI forbade research, development, and use of biological and chemical weapons.
Agreed.
I'd also suggest a specific statement that signatories will also consider all the above articles to apply in their actions towards non-signatories except in retaliation for actions that would contravene them. I believe that non-signatories were considered fair game under the originals: let's try to take the moral high ground on this.
Adding a "won't do it first" for signatories could be a good idea (read how this could work below.) Opting out is essentially a one-time pass for non-signatories. If they opt out—which is their right—signatories are under no compulsion to follow the Conventions when prosecuting a war against them over an interdiction.
In-game, Article V is the only tricky because of the way combat is resolved, but if a defender retreated—well, it's a military target—problem solved.
Appendices
Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Notable for their ridgy.[/color]
—Suggest Amending to include specific definitions for pirates, irregular forces, etc.
How do you propose to define them?
Good question. We could always determine pirates by the color of their tag on our maps.
Appendices I through L defined weapons of mass destruction. The restrictions for their use were so strict that not even tear gas could be used against foreign troops.
—Amend to remove non-lethal forms of chemical weapons.
I'm not clear why this is desirable. Reasons?
Generally for RP purposes. The ban on tear-gas, etc., seems excessive and it could create situations when lethal force is applied first over non-lethal force for lack of options. I'd simply limit the ban on chemical weapons to lethal varieties.
Appendix X
—Add interdiction to the Appendix as an allowable punishment for violation of this convention by adhering board members' nations.
Given that the original Conventions effectively had no enforcement, some improvement would be in order.
Being more specific, I recommend that following the presentation of sufficient evidence and a simple majority vote (not 2/3rds) excluding the accused, any signatory who breaks the Conventions towards another signatory receive a 6 month Interdiction, extendable if such actions continue.
Fair enough, but there should be a distinction between signatories and non-signatories. Signatories have elected to follow these rules, so a majority vote to punish violations is fair—especially if Starlight (the GM) is providing the accusations and evidence. Not one of us.
As for non-signatories...that's kind of a gray area for me. I think non-signatories would be subject to the traditional 2/3rds vote for interdiction if no signatory has violated the Ares Conventions in response to their actions.
So signatory players have two choices when dealing with a non-signatory violating "their" Conventions:
1.) Try to interdict the non-signatory through a traditional 2/3rds vote.
2.) Rescind the Conventions against the non-signatory and go to town on their own.
The truth is, application of these Conventions and their punishment should be somewhat voluntary. For one, this isn't social engineering-tech and two, the only difference between canon and the KU is our ability to enforce an interdiction. (I always loved the way the Taurian Concordat never signed.) Since that part of Pandora's box has been opened, I still like the idea of some self-determination for those players that really want to "play their game." So those players/nations that decide they won't go along with the conventions should suffer the punishment of being on the receiving end of running the risk of an interdiction, or no protection at all.
I really don't like the idea of an interdiction being used solely for political means with majority rule. If this is voted into the Conventions, I may just give away HPG tech to negate interdiction in its entirety. That would pull the teeth right from this tiger.
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Being more specific, I recommend that following the presentation of sufficient evidence and a simple majority vote (not 2/3rds) excluding the accused, any signatory who breaks the Conventions towards another signatory receive a 6 month Interdiction, extendable if such actions continue.
Like the UN the accused should get a vote no matter what. No one has veto powers like the winners of WWII do. Getting a majority vote should not be that hard, even with the accused voting if the evidence is really good.
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The original Ares Convention Articles before they were rescinded in 2579 by the Star League
Article I forbade the use of nuclear weapons against all civilian targets and planets and military targets within 75,000 kilometers of a planet.
—Amend to use of nuclear weapons within a planetary atmosphere
The Lyran Commonwealth agrees but wishes to add "all weapons of mass destruction, to include: Biological, Lethal Chemical, and exotic weapons capable of destruction over a wide area as well as inflicting catastrophic damage to property and massive loss of life over a short period of time." (ie: Asteroids)
Article II forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not near populated areas.
—Amend to forbid the use of orbital bombardment on planets with no clear military, command or communication value.
The Lyran Commonwealth agrees, but would state that there be a clear definition of what "military value" means. Does a militia unit defending a factory by it's lonesome warrant an orbital bombardment because it's taking too long to take the world? The Lyran Commonwealth states no. Furthermore, regardless of the outcome of these negotiations, the Lyran Commonwealth would remind everyone that it has held to a policy of no first use of orbital bombardment since the 4th War, and will continue such a policy even under the terms of this treaty. If the treaty were to be signed, we would insist on such a policy to be adhered to by all treaty signatories.
Article III established the white flag with adorned red S as universal symbol of surrender and truce, which all signatories agreed to abide by.
Article IV established the right of safe passage under a sign of truce and conditions for its loss.
The Lyran Commonwealth agrees to these obviously humanitarian gestures without comment.
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities—unless a military target was within the city—and against civilian targets.
There are perfectly good military reasons to defend cities, and while the loss of life is abhorrent, the fact remains it is a valid military practice, I think rules governing sieges and movement of civil populations in cities under attack might be more appropriate.
Article VI forbade research, development, and use of biological and chemical weapons.
Agreed without further comment. Such weapons are no better than weapons of terror and have little to no military use.
Appendices
Appendix A comprised of the definition of combat forces, ranging from definitions of infantry to aerospace forces. Since the Conventions were supposed to be followed by uniformed combatants, extensive definitions of uniforms were also part of this section.
The Lyran Commonwealth agrees that partisan and guerilla forces should come under such definitions and be clearly defined from terrorist groups, and that such forces should have all POW protections should they be captublue. A good guide might be the Third Geneva Protocols.
Appendix B defined what a valid military target during warfare was.
The Lyran Commonwealth would be happy to participate in these discussions.
Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Notable for their ridgy.
—Suggest Amending to include specific definitions for pirates, irregular forces, etc.
I think with piracy, it may be a case of if a irregular force does not adhere to the definitions of Appendix A, then it is clearly a pirate force and may be dealt with accordingly.
Appendix E clarified the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendeblue forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory.
The Lyran Commonwealth would be happy to participate in these discussions, as we did our best to ensure proper treatment of prisoners of war during both the Skye Rebellion and the 4th War.
Appendices F through H defined the nature of military force and hostile action. Aside from seeking to limit open conflicts, these appendices introduced the idea of conducting proxy battles via sports matches, simulation games, or duels.
This would help to prevent needless loss of life in "honor of the flag" situations.
Appendices I through L defined weapons of mass destruction. The restrictions for their use were so strict that not even tear gas could be used against foreign troops.
—Amend to remove non-lethal forms of chemical weapons.
There is no state in the Inner Sphere who would not agree with this, but I think it best that Tear Gas and other riot control agents be transferred to police and paramilitary units.
Appendices M through O defined boards of inquiry and investigative commissions for violations of the Ares Conventions. In practice, this should be by Starlight.
—Amend to create an investigative branch of StarLight for the sole purpose of reporting violations back to this board for voting purposes.
I support the Federated Suns and Cappellan Confederations views on this matter.
Appendix R defined the allowable uses of espionage and intelligence operations. Unlike the rest of the Conventions, this appendix was far less restrictive and only banned outright assassination.
The Lyran Commonwealth agrees with the ban on assassination, it does little more than backfire on the person(s) responsible. Other than Snow Fire (which admittedly, was a response to the death of a entire unit of Commonwealth soldiers....), but in general, assassinations do little other than start wars, not stop them.
Appendix X
—Add interdiction to the Appendix as an allowable punishment for violation of this convention by adhering board members' nations.
The Commonwealth would agree in principle, but would also agree with lesser punishments for lesser crimes, but I think a 2/3rds vote should be required for interdictions. It should be reserved for grave matters and as such, should be treated with the respect required.
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In the interest of keeping the new Ares Conventions as clear as possible, here's what we have so far...
Articles
Article I: Forbids the use of all weapons of mass destruction, to include: Nuclear, Biological, Lethal Chemical, and exotic weapons (i.e. Asteroids)—but not including orbital bombardment by conventional capital-grade weapons—capable of destruction over a wide area as well as inflicting catastrophic damage to property, a planetary environment and massive loss of life over a short period of time within a planetary atmosphere.
Article II: Forbids the use of orbital bombardment except against vital military targets not near populated areas. Military targets include known military formations, weapons factories, military shipyards and repair facilities, fortifications, and command and control centers (i.e. regional, provincial and national capitals that provide C3 points) Use of orbital bombardment against worlds defended only by militia with no other strategic value is prohibited.
Article III: Establishes the white flag with adorned red S as universal symbol of surrender and truce, which all signatories agreed to abide by.
Article IV: Establishes the right of safe passage under a sign of truce and conditions for its loss (i.e. breaking a truce, false flag, etc.)
Article V: Explicitly disavows combat in cities—unless a military target is within or knowingly enters a city—and against civilian targets. Combatants will endeavor to provide the safe passage for civilians in any theater of combat if possible.
Article VI: Forbids the research, development, and use of biological and lethal chemical weapons. Non-lethal chemical weapons are not under the purview of these conventions.
Article VII: Establishes that signatories of these conventions will adhere to them in combat against other signatories. Violations of the conventions by signatories is covered in Appendix X, XI, and XII.
Appendices
Appendix A: defines combat forces, as infantry, conventional armor, aerospace fighters, combat DropShips, combat JumpShips and WarShips. All uniformed and non-uniformed combatants must adhere to the accords to benefit from their protection. Deviation will result in a direct violation.
Appendix B: Targets of military value include uniformed military units, military industry and command & control centers.
Appendices C and D: Defines civilian assets as civilian industries (i.e. JumpShip Yards) and enclaves. Civilians are defined by the Third Geneva Protocols.
Appendix E: Defines the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendered forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory. (Can be determined at a later date for RP purposes.)
Appendices F through H: defined the nature of military force and hostile action. Aside from seeking to limit open conflicts, these appendices introduced the idea of conducting proxy battles via sports matches, simulation games, or duels. (Can be defined for RP purposes at a later date.)
Appendices I through K: Defines a Sphere-wide board of inquiry and investigative commission for violations of the Ares Conventions to be organized and led by Starlight Ltd. They maintain the sole responsibility of recording and reporting violations of the Ares Conventions to the Board of Directors.
Appendix L: Defines the allowable uses of espionage and intelligence operations, including assassination.*
Appendix M: Defines the use of Interdiction as punishment for violation of the Ares Conventions. See Appendix X, XI and XII.
Appendix N: Defines non-signatories of the Ares Convention and violations of the conventions by non-signatories. See Appendix XIII.
Appendix X: Violations of the Ares Convention.
—XI: Determining violations of the Ares Convention remains the purview of StarLight Ltd. StarLight Ltd. is the only accountable agency able to provide evidence of any and all violations to the Board of Directors. Ultimate determination of a violation will be made by the Board of Directors.
—XII: Signatories charged with violating the accords will face an interdiction vote by the Board of Directors, with the majority voting—including the charged—for interdiction in blocks of six months, with a minimum of one pending a convicting vote for interdiction. Every six months the Board of Directors will vote to maintain the interdiction, but only if violations of the conventions have taken place during the original interdiction period.
—XIII: Non-signatories of the Ares Conventions include any member of the Human Sphere who do not sign the accords.
—XIIIa: Signatories shall adhere to the Conventions in combat against Non-Signatories until the accords are violated by the non-signatory faction.
—XIIIb: In the event that a non-signatory violates the conventions the affected signatory have the option to pursue one of two distinct rights:
—Right I: Void the use of the Ares Conventions against the violating non-signatory until the cessation of combat
—Right II: Call for an interdiction vote against the violating non-signatory but require a 2/3rds vote—including the charged—for passage. Passed interdictions are covered by Appendix XII at the conclusion of the first six months. Signatories calling for an interdiction vote must maintain the Accords regardless of the vote outcome unless a second violation by the original non-signatory occurs.
Edit: Based on Comments. * Appendix L is currently under consideration.
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The Capellan Confederation wishes to stipulate that any nation that moves it's own military units into a city when attacked voids any violation of article V.
The Capellan Confederation also will not agree to remove assassination from it's list of tools. OOC: If you could have killed Hitler and his staff in 1943, saving millions of lives would you have "assassinated" him?
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Need to add specific mention of nuclear weapons on planetary targets. Use of nukes in naval battles permitted.
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Need to add specific mention of nuclear weapons on planetary targets. Use of nukes in naval battles permitted.
That's why I wrote planetary atmosphere. Anything outside of the atmosphere is fair game since it isn't covered.
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Article I needs to specifically say nuclear weapons. Just saying weapons of mass destruction gives the lawyers room to wiggle.
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Added. Good call.
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The Capellan Confederation also will not agree to remove assassination from it's list of tools. OOC: If you could have killed Hitler and his staff in 1943, saving millions of lives would you have "assassinated" him?
If someone had assassinated certain House Lords (or ComStar officials) in 3024, how many lives would have been saved?
Put yourself in the crosshairs. Does the ban on assassination sound better now?
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I guess another question to ask is one of enforcement. Orbital Bombardment, WMDs, etc., are much easier to investigate and determine if a violation has occurred. Given the type of powers and responsible we have considered imbuing StarLight Ltd. with, would it not be more prudent to simply remove Appendix L for the document in its entirety? Unless growing the power of StarLight Ltd. to that size is preferred...
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Should this board vote to adopt these measures? Are we missing an important rule, is there something we should change or remove?
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Nope
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Nope as in we should not adopt them or Nope as in we didn't miss anything?
The Capellan Confederation will hold itself to the standards listed. The other nations may do what they will. Retaliation for use of nukes, chemical or biological weapons in atmosphere will make Ragnarok look like a picnic.
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No rules need to be changed. I will just have to separate out WS combat from ground combat.
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[OOC — That was the goal.
Now, if players aren't keen on adopting these rules.... ;D
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The Lyran Commonwealth will adhere to these standards as well regardless of the status of these talks.
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Should you wish to be clear about the Ares Conventions perhaps you should clarify exactly what you are proposing in a new forum, and then collect your votes.
As for the current topic.
The Oberon Confederation seconds the call for an interdiction of the Draconis Combine based upon the indiscriminate and brutal use of Orbital Bombardment upon civilian targets with the willful intent of destruction of civilian infrastructure.
Regardless of the results of this vote, the Oberon Confederation will remember Reykjavik, and continue to support refugees from the Principality of Rasalhague in this terrible time.
Oberon Confederation Representative to Starlight Broadcasting.
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Should you wish to be clear about the Ares Conventions perhaps you should clarify exactly what you are proposing in a new forum, and then collect your votes.
Fair enough, but the Terran Hegemony has not, nor will it be, the driving force behind the acceptance of these rules. The Hegemony is not the Inner Sphere's police men, but the Terran people are more than willing to take a ground political attack and turn it into something useful. The so-called "violations" of "commonly accepted interstellar law" or the abrogation of certain treaties has been driven primarily by your nation and the Lyran Commonwealth. Your nations broached the topic of punishment based on certain "grounds"—not other members of this board. All the Hegemony did—and continues to do—is was help direct the conversation from descending into petty bickering and turn itinto something marginally usable as a potential set of governing accords.
Since Oberon continues to act on the ground of moral and legal ambiguity, the Hegemony sees no reason to pursue this topic further if the chief so-called proponents of "commonly accepted interstellar law" seem less than enthused with its creation as a foundation of future punishment.
Lastly, if the Oberon Confederation or any other interstellar nation wants to hold itself to a standard not covered by a legally binding definition, then so be it. The Hegemony's admirals for one, will be happier knowing they can use their WarShips in any manner they see fit when protecting the Terran people.
The Hegemony will vote against an interdiction of the Draconis Combine or any other nation as long as there is no clear legal violation of any kind. Furthermore, the Hegemony will begin offering HPG information and assistance to those nations it deems fit in order to bring this absurd farce to a swift conclusion.
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With all due respect to the Terran representative, but have you either lost your mind or are you on some kind of mind altering substance? Whatever the reason, the Hegemony should be happy we are giving it such a central role in these negotiations. Now you turn around and threaten us and our allies again? Just what is next? Shall your nation get into bed with the Combine? After what the Combine has done to people it considers it's own citizens? Furthermore, your comments call the very independence of Starlight Communications into question. Is Starlight a branch of Hegemony government, or is it an independent agency? If the latter, then the Hegemony government has no right making such promises.
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It doesn't surprise the Hegemony at all that it would be the Commonwealth running to the quick defense of its protectorate. It has long been common knowledge that when Oberon speaks the Terran people hear a Lyran accent.
Quite honestly the Hegemony finds your graciousness at allowing us a "central role in these negotiations" as laughable as the Oberon Commonwealth's claim that the Combine broke some sort of imaginary interstellar rule set. Once again the Commonwealth has misconstrued reality to fit their notion of the big bad Terran boogeyman. The Hegemony's comments never once insinuated that StarLight Communications is anything but independent. We have, however, made comment on and to the fact that the Hegemony has the right to offer our technology to whomever we so chose. Hasn't the Commonwealth traded or offered technology to its allies and not others? We guess your rules do not apply to others...
So there must be a grand Terran conspiracy at work should the Hegemony offer the Free Worlds League, Draconis Combine, Capellan Confederation and many of the Periphery nations HPG technology so the Commonwealth-Oberon-Suns block can no longer throw its weight around this Board for their own selfish ends. Yes, it is a grand conspiracy to keep the Commonwealth from bullying the rest of the Inner Sphere around.
Again, the Terran people would like to thank the Commonwealth and its mouth-pieces for calling for their politically-motivated and absolutely absurd interdiction. Because of it, we're going to help equalize the balance, to help keep the threat and damage of an interdiction from hurting the good people of the Human Sphere.
Thank you for this wonderful opportunity, but I do wonder what will happen when all of the nations above are immune to an interdiction and the Commonwealth isn't? With no legally binding rules it would be a terrible reversal of fortune if the Commonwealth and her allies were faced with a vote for their own interdiction based on groundless political pandering...
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I have been asked by the Caesar, who has followed these discussions with interest, to inform the other states, that whether or not some new treaty on warfare is signed or not signed, the Marian Hegemony will continue to use every tool of war available, when and if it so chooses should a situation arise where the use of such tools use would be necessary.
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*clearing his throat*
ahem, to respond to my esteemed colleague directly.
Fair enough, but the Terran Hegemony has not, nor will it be, the driving force behind the acceptance of these rules. ...
I don't recall having asked the Terran Hegemony to be the driving force, merely move the conversation to a clear and suitable forum for further discussion and ratification.
Since Oberon continues to act on the ground of moral and legal ambiguity, ...
The murder of innocents, specifically defenseless women and children. According to my brief look through criminal law and religious texts, murder is quite immoral to every major religion, and illegal in every single Terran Hegemony world, and all the major nations including the Draconis Combine, and has been for a very long time. Military Combatants however is a different story. What we are referring too in this discussion is the willful slaughter of innocent civilians, regardless if it is done from Orbit or by camps like on Elbar or by concentration camps like Auschwitz.
The Hegemony's admirals for one, will be happier knowing they can use their WarShips in any manner they see fit when protecting the Terran people. ...
*a picture of a two year old dark haired girl in a pink tutu and pigtails, holding a floppy eared 6 legged bunny rabbit is displayed on the screen behind, superimposed on a scrolling list of hundreds of thousands of names*
I had not been aware that young Cassandra Hibakusha frightens the Hegemony Admirals so. Behind me you will all see the current list of civilian casualties from the Draconis Combine's unprovoked assault using of Orbital Bombardment on Reykjavik. These women and children were so threatening in their attacks on the Draconis Combine that the DCMS had no choice but to bombard them from Orbit?
Furthermore, the Hegemony will begin offering HPG information and assistance to those nations it deems fit in order to bring this absurd farce to a swift conclusion.
...The Hegemony's comments never once insinuated that StarLight Communications is anything but independent. We have, however, made comment on and to the fact that the Hegemony has the right to offer our technology to whomever we so chose.
These last two items are somewhat contradictory in that if the Hegemony is giving out information contained within the HPG signals, it violates the governance of this very council. If the Hegemony is offering their wondrous technology that they have been holding over the head of the rest of the Inner Sphere for hundreds of years, well that is a different story all together.
Yes, it is a grand conspiracy to keep the Commonwealth from bullying the rest of the Inner Sphere around.
I had to chuckle with this comment... I just can't help but wonder who the bully really is...the nation who is bombarding innocent women and children from orbit, or the one... well I think I'll stop there.
Again, the Terran people would like to thank the Commonwealth and its mouth-pieces ...
Can we keep this civil. Name calling like school yard bullies... no wait there is that word again.
...With no legally binding rules it would be a terrible reversal of fortune if the Commonwealth and her allies were faced with a vote for their own interdiction based on groundless political pandering...
Laws on every planet...threats...
*stomps his foot* Looks like the ground is pretty solid.
*pointing at the now scrolling pictures of faces of women and children* politics be damned, this is about doing something to show the entire galaxy that this sort of evil will not be tolerated by people who can not stand by and do nothing when otherwise evil would triumph.
I could not sleep at night knowing that I did nothing when the next world burns. Can you?
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The murder of innocents, specifically defenseless women and children. According to my brief look through criminal law and religious texts, murder is quite immoral to every major religion, and illegal in every single Terran Hegemony world, and all the major nations including the Draconis Combine, and has been for a very long time. Military Combatants however is a different story. What we are referring too in this discussion is the willful slaughter of innocent civilians, regardless if it is done from Orbit or by camps like on Elbar or by concentration camps like Auschwitz.
You seem to be quite fond of referencing history...
*Tosses pictures of the scorched, burned and destroyed landscapes of Caph, New Earth and Talitha. Orbital pics of whole continents poisoned on New Dallas and the charred ruins on Thorin and Graham IV.*
...and the Hegemony can throw pictures on a table as well. Where is the justice for these crimes? What about the millions since who have died from exposure to radiation and other poisons over the centuries. Innocent generations suffering from shortened lifespans because their bodies were wracked with cancer. These planets were bombed and destroyed over and over, and over again without thought or regard. And while the bombs have stopped falling, innocents are still suffering and dying because of them. While the crimes against the Hegemony are decades or even centuries old, the residual effects are still felt as keenly today as they were when the bombs first dropped.
Should the Hegemony consider their deaths to be murder? What about manslaughter? Does that definition fit Oberon's description of the murder of innocents better?
I could not sleep at night knowing that I did nothing when the next world burns. Can you?
So lets have a discussion about the willful slaughter of innocent civilians.
By your definition it doesn't matter if the murdering is done from orbit or in Elbar's camps, so why not add any death as a result of combat? If Auschwitz created no great physical or lasting ecological disaster compared to say the scouring of Terra Firma or the destruction of Meredith, then surely the scouring of Terra Firma can be justifiably called murder. If so, then every nation of this board is a murderer, as every nation here has willfully murdered innocents. The Hegemony is a murderer for its long history of oppressing and killing the Periphery, the Great Houses for their Succession Wars, even your beloved Oberon has a not-so-distant history of piracy, slavery and murder.
If all this is true, or even some of it is true, where does Oberon suggest we place a statute on the prosecution of criminals who conduct the "willful slaughter of innocent civilians"? Where do we draw the line? Is Oberon ready to face judgement for decades of piracy, theft and murder? Many of Oberon's last victims before achieving legitimacy are still living, do they deserve justice?
The point is, Oberon has no more right to stand on moral principle than any other nation present. Oberon and others can sit and claim to be paradigms of moral virtue, but the truth is they can't claim to be anymore virtuous than the Hegemony unless others are willing to forget their past.
The Hegemony believes there is a choice. There is a choice to draw a line in the sand and say the past is the past in the interest of forging a better future. If this board is serious about curbing the death of innocent civilians it will work towards achieving that goal through equitable and honest collaboration, not by pointing fingers, claiming the moral high ground or meting out punishment based on nothing but a self righteous or politically motivated cause.
Had Oberon or the Commonwealth approached the Combine through this board, or others in the spirit of creating rules and guidelines the Human Sphere could follow, perhaps Luthien would have listened...perhaps even now the majority of the Inner Sphere would be beholden to a common interstellar law instead of this endless bickering.
If pushing for the Ares Conventions, if offering to provide HPG technology to others to negate the bullying of power-blocs in this council is bullying—then yes—the Hegemony is bully. The Hegemony only hopes more nations act accordingly.
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The reference to historic events provided a valuable frame of reference which you almost understood. However the events that are at the heart of the matter are in fact CURRENT events, happening now while you bandy about historic claims of travesties. The children of Reyjkavik are dieing today. This is the second time in this decade that the government of the Draconis Combine has used Orbital Bombardment against non military targets.
If you want to dredge up past transgressions, by all means do so in the correct discussion forum. Or let the past rest as is your prerogative.
As far as accusing the Oberon Confederation of piracy, perhaps you should learn your recent history. The government of the Oberon Confederation has never conducted slavery or murderous operations and in fact has been instrumental in ending piracy in the Coreward Periphery. We have prosecuted and provided justice to more pirate bands since our creation than the Terran government of any form has in centuries.
In this day of this age, the Oberon Confederation will act in whatever manner available to it to prevent further catastrophes from reoccurring. We will support the creation of the Ares Conventions, but will never support the willful slaughter of innocents, let alone gloat over the act like our neighbours have just done yet again. If our vote to Interdict stops one planet from burning like Rasalhague, regardless if the interdiction is passed, that would be at least a few million lives saved, now wouldn't it.
In terms of bullying, it is interesting to see that you use such terms for the Hegemony's own political gains and their own "power-bloc" to bully and threaten our small periphery nation, antagonize the Lyran Commonwealth, not to mention permit the complete annihilation of the Principality of Rasalhague.
The Outworld's Alliance's Arbitration Committee's enthusiasm, although misplaced, we have to agree with the spirit of it. If you would have noted the Oberon Confederation did not vote for interdiction based on the information provided by this Committee, however supported interdiction based on the indiscriminate use of Orbital Bombardment upon a civilian population as an aggressive and punitive act, and not as many seem to be overlooking an act of defense. It is hard to imagine when or how orbital bombardment of civilians could be construed as an act of defense at any level.
We also hope that more nations will act appropriately to show that in this day and age the people of the Inner Sphere do not tolerate barbarism.
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The Taurian Concordat will use every means at its disposal to protect its legitimate borders from any aggressor.
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I have been asked to provide the following comment from the Government of the Combine:
"The Dragon Throne will consider any such treaty once presented and apply it provisions to the great states, however, the Draconis Combine will not tolerate the application of such provisions in regards to internal rebellions for any state, such as the one it is now engaged in quelling, or against pirate forces, such as the puppet state of Oberon, which preyed upon Draconis Combine worlds as little as a decade ago, before winning its little pirate war.
Internal matters of the Draconis Combine and other states are just that, internal, and those who support such rebellions in any way will be dealt with as the Draconis Combine sees fit. Mercy for brigands and plunderers will not be considered in any shape or form.
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Thank you
Doris Katya
Draconis Combine Representative
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The Taurian Concordat will use every means at its disposal to protect its legitimate borders from any aggressor.
This is exactly what is being done for the people of the Principality of Rasalhague. Would you not seek he same if for example some military force three times your size attacked your nation without provocation or justification and bombarded your cities from orbit? Or have you forgotten Amos Furlough?
Well we now have the answer of the Draconis combine who just now after more than 5 years consider the Principality of Rasalhague to be an internal matter.
No mercy, well the DCMS and DCA in specific have shown that they have neither mercy nor honor.
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I don't understand the point of my honorable colleague.
The Taurian Concordat just said that no one would ever be able to do to it what the Star Leahue did and that any thread to our legitimate borders will be dealt with the needed answer.
This is why we can't agree to this convention that is in favour of the big powers with big navies and armies.
As for the Principality, it is free to deal with its opponents as it wants and I am sure it has friends that are more than willing to help it.
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I understand the confusion. Perhaps I can clarify.
This current topic and the vote that has been tabled is the interdiction of the Draconis Combine for using their navy to indiscriminately bombard the civilian population of Rasalhague.
A secondary topic that should be retabled as a separate topic is the reformation of the Ares Conventions as initiated by the Terran Hegemony.
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I understand but the Taurian Concordat only answered to the Ares Convention as there was never a clear answer to our initial question.