Topic: Naval (Blue Water) Vessels (Read 20073 times)

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #15 on:** January 08, 2012, 05:34:44 AM »

Back at home and once I have some time I will work on that.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #16 on:** January 24, 2012, 01:48:50 PM »

I just gave a good thought to it and here is what I think.

Standard theory of use for naval power will not be used here as you don't have to fight for sea domination when you are alone on a world (ie one government).

What use is there for the Blue Water navy?
- Defence of a world,
- Direct support of troops,
- Defence of trade routes,
- Fight against guerilla,
- Denying conquest of a world.

Depending on the world, the standard use will be a bit different but I think this sums it up quite well.
What do you think?

Takiro · « **Reply #17 on:** January 24, 2012, 04:22:36 PM »

Well Ice I doubt the bestest Wet Navy could deny the conquest of a world but that could go hand in hand with the defense of a world. Subs might be the best as they can survive an awful lot you would think. I am looking for general ships that would be used across the worlds of an interstellar nation. So we are looking for the appropriate House Lord angle on this.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #18 on:** January 25, 2012, 01:43:07 PM »

Quote from: Takiro on January 24, 2012, 04:22:36 PM

Well Ice I doubt the bestest Wet Navy could deny the conquest of a world but that could go hand in hand with the defense of a world. Subs might be the best as they can survive an awful lot you would think. I am looking for general ships that would be used across the worlds of an interstellar nation. So we are looking for the appropriate House Lord angle on this.

I should have been clearer.

Denying means they participate to this mission, I know they won't be able to do it alone.

And if you remember my original question, I was trying to see if there was any specific doctrine of use for each House.
If they have a specific doctrine, they are more likely to build a Blue Water Navy along these lines.

Takiro · « **Reply #19 on:** January 25, 2012, 04:01:24 PM »

Nothing yet established for nautical doctrines Ice. I imagine they resemble each Houses military doctrines. Steiner likes big stuff, Liao likes to be sneaky, etc.

I'm gonna look back through notes and canon sources to shed a little more light on this.

Question; As water becomes more important in the 3rd Succession War would these designs become more important or less?

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #20 on:** January 27, 2012, 04:29:01 AM »

Quote from: Takiro on January 25, 2012, 04:01:24 PM

Nothing yet established for nautical doctrines Ice. I imagine they resemble each Houses military doctrines. Steiner likes big stuff, Liao likes to be sneaky, etc.

I don't agree with that as when you look at our good old Earth, the naval doctrines are more or less dictated by the raw naval power and the main ships of each navy, not by national preferences (even the French Jeune Ecole roots are a little more complex than what a first analysis might let you think).

Quote from: Takiro on January 25, 2012, 04:01:24 PM

Question; As water becomes more important in the 3rd Succession War would these designs become more important or less?

Water more important? What do you mean?

Takiro · « **Reply #21 on:** January 27, 2012, 06:33:01 AM »

Quote from: Ice Hellion on January 27, 2012, 04:29:01 AM

I don't agree with that as when you look at our good old Earth, the naval doctrines are more or less dictated by the raw naval power and the main ships of each navy, not by national preferences (even the French Jeune Ecole roots are a little more complex than what a first analysis might let you think).

Well the known canon designs of House Steiner seem to link directly to their national preferences. The Meabh class Heavy Cruiser (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 164) and the Luftenburg class Supercarrier (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 166-167 - 100,000 tons - Lyran introduced 2741) indicate that the Lyran bluewater fleet was a creation of social generals who looked at these ships as their â€œpersonal pleasure yachtsâ€.

Quote from: Ice Hellion on January 27, 2012, 04:29:01 AM

Water more important? What do you mean?

Water becomes the basis for the economy of the InnerSphere (replacing Germanium which KF cores are built from) as the 3rd Succession War drags on. As water is the basis for life and human existence in a scavenger economy this does make sense. It also gives us a better look at the worth and defense of H2O but do you risk its pollution by fighting in it? While not quite the same value in the 2800s it does provide some food for thought.

Oh and I'll repost known canon nautical designs for reference again.

Quote from: Takiro on December 24, 2011, 12:07:16 PM

Ok gang I wanted to assemble a list of Nautical Support Vehicles that have thus far been published in various Handbooks and TROs. Not to many are good for our era (2785) but they are a good starting point.

Naval Surface Vehicles
Silverfin / Silverback Coastal Cutter (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 160-161 - 40 tons - Terran Alliance introduced 2302)
Monitor Naval Vessel (TRO 3026 pg 72-73 - 75 tons - Kurita introduced late 2900s?)

Naval Submersible Vehicles
Manta Attack Submarine (TRO 3085 Supplemental pg 18-19 - 50 tons - Star League introduced 2600s?)
Sea Wolf Fast Attack Submarine (Project Phoenix pg 162-164 - 50 tons - Star League introduced 2743)
Nautilus Ballistic Missile Submarine (Project Phoenix pg 164-166 - 100 tons - Star League introduced 2743)
Neptune Submarine (TRO 3026 pg 96-97 - 100 tons - Davion introduced 2950)
Moray Attack Submarine (140 tons) (TRO 3085 Supplemental pg 18-19 - 50 tons - Star League introduced 2600s?)

Naval (Surface) Vessel Support Vehicles
Cliona class Frigate (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 164-165 - ?? tons - Lyrans introduced ??)
Rapier class Patrol Frigate (HDHB pg 201 - 8,500 tons - Davion introduced 2950s)
Andryusha class Bombardment Frigate (HLHB pg 164 - 8,500 tons - Capellan introduced 3065)
Meabh class Heavy Cruiser (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 164-165 - 10,000 tons - Lyran introduced 2807*)
Lucius Zhao class Escort Carrier (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 166-167 - 15,000 tons - Capellan introduced ??)
Jormungand class Bluewater Cruiser (HSHB pg 171 - 60,000 tons - Lyran introduced 2902)
Luftenburg class Supercarrier (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 166-167 - 100,000 tons - Lyran introduced 2741)

Naval (Submarine) Vessel Support Vehicles
Triton class Missile Submarine (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 176-177 - 12,000 tons - Kurita introduced 3059)
Wyrm class Submersible Mega-fortress (JHS Terra pg 188-189 - 22,726.5 tons - WoB 3072)
Lysander class Carrier Submarine (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 178-179 - 26,000 tons - Kurita introduced late 3040s)
Argo class Submersible Carrier (HMHB pg 166 - 30,000 tons - Marik introduced )

lrose · « **Reply #22 on:** January 27, 2012, 07:57:16 AM »

Quote from: Takiro on January 27, 2012, 06:33:01 AM

Well the known canon designs of House Steiner seem to link directly to their national preferences. The Meabh class Heavy Cruiser (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 164) and the Luftenburg class Supercarrier (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 166-167 - 100,000 tons - Lyran introduced 2741) indicate that the Lyran bluewater fleet was a creation of social generals who looked at these ships as their â€œpersonal pleasure yachtsâ€.

Also see the Sea Skimmer entry in TR3026/3039- it was created by lyran social generals who did use them as personal pleasure craft. But those are much smaller then the other ships of the LCAF.

[/quote]

Water becomes the basis for the economy of the InnerSphere (replacing Germanium which KF cores are built from) as the 3rd Succession War drags on. As water is the basis for life and human existence in a scavenger economy this does make sense. It also gives us a better look at the worth and defense of H2O but do you risk its pollution by fighting in it? While not quite the same value in the 2800s it does provide some food for thought.
[/quote]

I think it depends- If there is a purification plant or other valuable site along the coast I can see the use of a naval forces to defend it. Otherwise I don't see keeping a bluewater navy to defend a freshwater source- it is probably to large- a dropship could land, load water an leave before your wet navy ships can get there.

Quote from: Takiro on December 24, 2011, 12:07:16 PM

Ok gang I wanted to assemble a list of Nautical Support Vehicles that have thus far been published in various Handbooks and TROs. Not to many are good for our era (2785) but they are a good starting point.

You're missing the sea skimmer.

Knightmare · « **Reply #23 on:** January 27, 2012, 02:01:41 PM »

Quote from: Takiro on January 27, 2012, 06:33:01 AM

Water becomes the basis for the economy of the InnerSphere (replacing Germanium which KF cores are built from) as the 3rd Succession War drags on. As water is the basis for life and human existence in a scavenger economy this does make sense.

Yeah, gonna disagree with this. H20 as the basis for the economy of the Inner Sphere (it's two words!)?!...

The scavenger economy of the 3rd Succession War is exactly that, scavenger. There is no pan-Sphere basis like Germanium was during the Star League era. No integrated, or uniform foundation outside of the C-Bill. Within the Great Houses, precious stone, minerals, metals, anything could be the local basis for wealth. It's why we see so many raids for commodities during the long years of the 3rd SW.

Local commodities dictate their relative importance. A water world like Carver might have an abundance of bluewater ships, except they're not protecting the water, but the tidal power plants and water purification plants. As Irose mentioned, makes no sense trying to protect a large water source in the age of DropShips.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #24 on:** January 31, 2012, 01:54:21 PM »

Quote from: Takiro on January 27, 2012, 06:33:01 AM

Well the known canon designs of House Steiner seem to link directly to their national preferences. The Meabh class Heavy Cruiser (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 164) and the Luftenburg class Supercarrier (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 166-167 - 100,000 tons - Lyran introduced 2741) indicate that the Lyran bluewater fleet was a creation of social generals who looked at these ships as their â€œpersonal pleasure yachtsâ€.

I think the authors exaggerated.
As for the Lyrans having heavy units, is it because of their national preferences or because they have the economy to build them and these units look more efficient than the smaller ones?

Quote from: Knightmare on January 27, 2012, 02:01:41 PM

Yeah, gonna disagree with this. H20 as the basis for the economy of the Inner Sphere (it's two words!)?!...

is too weird as it depends on the planet.
Is water supply of lower quality and less available than during the Star League? Yes but this is all.

But this is a good question: what do the Successor States fight over? Planets? Raw Materials? Factories? People?

Halvagor · « **Reply #25 on:** February 04, 2012, 09:32:48 PM »

Quote from: Ice Hellion on January 27, 2012, 04:29:01 AM

Quote from: Takiro on January 25, 2012, 04:01:24 PM
Nothing yet established for nautical doctrines Ice. I imagine they resemble each Houses military doctrines. Steiner likes big stuff, Liao likes to be sneaky, etc.

I don't agree with that as when you look at our good old Earth, the naval doctrines are more or less dictated by the raw naval power and the main ships of each navy, not by national preferences (even the French Jeune Ecole roots are a little more complex than what a first analysis might let you think).

Today the relative lack of differences between classes and sizes of ship across most nations means that all doctrines are more or less the same, but this wasn't true in the between-the-wars period of the 20th Century, or even during the Cold War.

The 1930s French Navy, for instance, focused on fast, heavily armed (but not necessarily well-protected) ships, as it anticipated deployment in a series of fast raids or counter-raids in the Med or anti-raider work in the Atlantic, and this mentality shaped the kinds of ships it purchased (few aircraft carriers or cruisers, a relatively large number of battlecruisers and fast battleships, lots of very large destroyers). The Italian Navy anticiapted a lot of convoy escort work in the Med, and so had a large number of cruisers. The Royal Navy had convoy escort on its mind everywhere, and so it had scads of weak light cruisers and light carriers, but also a powerful (if slow) battle fleet. The USN had notably larger fuel tanks on its ships (even destroyers) because of the much greater ranges at which they needed to operate from major bases.

Today's navies are much less varied.

Takiro · « **Reply #26 on:** February 05, 2012, 12:25:02 AM »

Lot of good points. Irose, I shall add the Sea Skimmer. Sorry bout the oversight. And Ice I'd have to say the House Lords fight over resources which become increasingly industrial in nature as the Succession Wars drag on. However we are talking about habitable planets on which these resources are located and again these worlds increasingly become more about the amount of water they have on them. A key for habitablility. So it is in this fashion we speak of wet navies.

Halvagor makes some good points and I think as the 1st Succession War breaks out the blue and brown water fleets of the InnerSphere are not that different. I believe the Meabh class Heavy Cruiser (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 164-165 - 10,000 tons - Lyran introduced 2807) points to Star League vessels that the Commonwealth had to replace twenty years after the war began. This could indicate a somewhat limited number of generic craft that could perform their patrol duties on worlds throughout the InnerSphere.

Thoughts?

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #27 on:** February 05, 2012, 10:24:32 AM »

Quote from: Halvagor on February 04, 2012, 09:32:48 PM

Today the relative lack of differences between classes and sizes of ship across most nations means that all doctrines are more or less the same, but this wasn't true in the between-the-wars period of the 20th Century, or even during the Cold War.

But this doesn't mean that my point was not valid.

Quote from: Takiro on February 05, 2012, 12:25:02 AM

I believe the Meabh class Heavy Cruiser (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 164-165 - 10,000 tons - Lyran introduced 2807) points to Star League vessels that the Commonwealth had to replace twenty years after the war began. This could indicate a somewhat limited number of generic craft that could perform their patrol duties on worlds throughout the InnerSphere.

Against whom would they be patrolling? A Heavy Cruiser to do that sounds like a waste of resources.

Halvagor · « **Reply #28 on:** February 05, 2012, 12:23:03 PM »

Agreed that it doesn't invalidate your point, Ice, but it shows that your argument isn't the only one around. The role of the wet-navy ships in an era of interstellar combat is really only limited to the imagination. Multi-purpose ships are almost a requirement, because there's the most incentive for that from a centralized production standpoint, and we're constantly led to believe that centralization is the way of the Inner Sphere (partly because of FASAnomics, but it's also just generally easier on the developers and game-balancers).

There are two ways I would handle this, thinking from the Star League/Great House perspective. First, modularity; the USN is already experimenting in this with the Littoral Combat Ships -- unimpressively to date, but that doesn't mean the idea is necessarily unsound. Alternately, have combat be the secondary element for ships. This is a much older concept in naval architecture, going back to wooden sailing ships which could be either combat ships or trading ships (such as the Vikings). So make ships which have more practical uses, such as Coast Guard search-and-rescue ships, ocean-going science/research ships, cruise ships, and the like which either have a moderate armament at all times (like USCG ships traditionally mount) or which can be relatively easily converted into proper (or improvised) warships when/if the need does arrive. The Imperial Japanese government in the 1930s would underwrite passenger cruise ships so long as the naval architects who designed them took into account conversion of the ships for military purposes in the event of war, and this is the origin of the IJN carriers Jun'yo and Hiyo.

Since the development of the "support vehicle" class we're finally presented with a series of mechanics that allow for proper-sized wet-navy ships; sadly, the ridiculous restrictions on long-range firepower still greatly limit the utility of such vessels. But any major port city in the Inner Sphere ought to have some sort of naval protection available to it, even if the ships are normally kept in reserve, rather than out at sea. If nothing else, they provide protection from hovercraft trying to invade cities from the sea, and could realistically (if not yet in the rules) detect and interdict 'mechs trying to infiltrate along the ocean floor.

Do I think that this makes the most economic sense for a defense force in the 31st (or 28th) Century? Nope; but then, neither do 'mechs; all the money and effort spent on 'mechs and tanks would be more effectively spent, per the game mechanics, on assault droppers and aerospace fighters, and not limited ground forces. But no military is actually about what makes the most economic sense, least of all one in a game about giant robots and FTL warfare.

Takiro · « **Reply #29 on:** February 16, 2012, 10:12:24 PM »

Well I wanted to enter in two more canon designs which really shed more light on the state of nautical forces in different eras of BattleTech. The Sea Skimmer as Irose pointed out is a design which I over looked when putting together my original list however the first paragraph from the overview says a ton.

Quote

After the Exodus era the wet navy all but vanished. Each newly colonized planet had only one government and so had no need to build a wet navy to sink another government's wet navy. Nor could a colony world hide behind an ocean when invaded from space.

It would seem that the nautical forces of the InnerSphere were a luxury of the Star League era and when war came they were disbanded. Likely cannibalized into more useful endeavors rather than destroyed I would think. Troopers being mobilized as infantry with weapons and ammo going to other military arms.

It all really adds up if you read the canon design lead ins. See the second canon vehicle i missed the Mauna Kea Command Vessel. It lays out the role of the wet navy which Ice asked about earlier essentially a pirate hunting force deployed against raiders in economic vital yet remote ocean locations. Makes sense I guess cause Mechs and AeroFighters can really smash any wet naval force.

Factor in the difficult maintenance of sea going craft along with more pressing military concerns and you get the fringe military wet navy. Some worlds have more important ocean real estate to cover and deploy larger forces but that is the exception and not the rule.

Let me update that list once again.

Naval Surface Vehicles
Sea Skimmer Hydrofoil (TRO 3026 pg 24-25 - 25 tons - Lyran introduced 2867)
Silverfin / Silverback Coastal Cutter (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 160-161 - 40 tons - Terran Alliance introduced 2302)
Monitor Naval Vessel (TRO 3026 pg 72-73 - 75 tons - Kurita introduced late 2900s?)
Mauna Kea Command Vessel (TRO 3075 pg 256-257 - 85 tons - Marik introduced 2463)

Naval Submersible Vehicles
Manta Attack Submarine (TRO 3085 Supplemental pg 18-19 - 50 tons - Star League introduced 2600s?)
Sea Wolf Fast Attack Submarine (Project Phoenix pg 162-164 - 50 tons - Star League introduced 2743)
Nautilus Ballistic Missile Submarine (Project Phoenix pg 164-166 - 100 tons - Star League introduced 2743)
Neptune Submarine (TRO 3026 pg 96-97 - 100 tons - Davion introduced 2950)
Moray Attack Submarine (140 tons) (TRO 3085 Supplemental pg 18-19 - 50 tons - Star League introduced 2600s?)

Naval (Surface) Vessel Support Vehicles
Cliona class Frigate (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 164-165 - ?? tons - Lyrans introduced ??)
Rapier class Patrol Frigate (HDHB pg 201 - 8,500 tons - Davion introduced 2950s)
Andryusha class Bombardment Frigate (HLHB pg 164 - 8,500 tons - Capellan introduced 3065)
Meabh class Heavy Cruiser (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 164-165 - 10,000 tons - Lyran introduced 2807*)
Lucius Zhao class Escort Carrier (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 166-167 - 15,000 tons - Capellan introduced ??)
Jormungand class Bluewater Cruiser (HSHB pg 171 - 60,000 tons - Lyran introduced 2902)
Luftenburg class Supercarrier (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 166-167 - 100,000 tons - Lyran introduced 2741)

Naval (Submarine) Vessel Support Vehicles
Triton class Missile Submarine (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 176-177 - 12,000 tons - Kurita introduced 3059)
Wyrm class Submersible Mega-fortress (JHS Terra pg 188-189 - 22,726.5 tons - WoB 3072)
Lysander class Carrier Submarine (TRO Vehicle Annex pg 178-179 - 26,000 tons - Kurita introduced late 3040s)
Argo class Submersible Carrier (HMHB pg 166 - 30,000 tons - Marik introduced

)

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Author Topic: Naval (Blue Water) Vessels (Read 20073 times)

Ice Hellion

Re: Naval (Blue Water) Vessels

Ice Hellion

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Takiro

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Ice Hellion

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Takiro

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Ice Hellion

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Takiro

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lrose

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Knightmare

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Ice Hellion

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Halvagor

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Takiro

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Ice Hellion

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Halvagor

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Takiro

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