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Author Topic: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables  (Read 40702 times)

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lrose

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2011, 03:58:22 PM »

I think the Hobbs Guards are too large for one at this time. Their strength could be lowered. Which RDCs would you say have no strength then at this time?

I agree Hobbs could be smaller

As for the March Militias (not the RDCs) I could see Kilbourne, Anjin Muerto, Point Barrow, Broken Wheel and maybe Tsamma having only conventional forces at this time. 
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Takiro

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2011, 05:51:40 PM »

What size do you see Hobbs at? I could go down to 2 regiments at this time.

That is a big cut out of the MMs - Although I could see some of them being left without.
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lrose

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2011, 06:11:44 PM »

I'd cut Hobbs to 2.  We can also cut some of the other RDCs- most should be 2 regiments strong (or less) in 2575. 

Suggestions-

We can cut 1 Broken Wheel regiment if needed (I'd try to avoid that because then the write up will become too similar to some of the others- namely the Point Barrow Bulldogs. )

We should leave the Avalon Borderers at 3 regiments due to the importance of New Avalon.

I'd cut Hobbs to 2 regiments.  I would consider cutting the chesterton Dragoons to 2, but their fluff really works for 3 regiments.
We can cut Die Moot to 1 regiment- that would actually work- maybe the addition of 2nd regiment was tied to the plans to overthrow the Prince?

The Franklin Gorgons really make sense with 3 regiments- I would leave them alone. 


5 March Militias is a lot, I would definitely cut Anjin Muerto, Point Barrow and maybe Broken Wheel (they tie in with the Charioteers so I have to see how it affects them. )  I would probably keep Tsamma, Kilbourne is up in the air. 

This is actually not that unreasonable - in 3025 the Point Barrow, Kearny and Broken Wheel regions did not have march militias.
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Takiro

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2011, 09:13:35 PM »

Cutting Hobbs to 2 is good.

Lets keep Broken Wheel then and perhaps cut their CMM?

Avalon, Franklin, and Chesterton are fine with their 3 regiment strengths.

I like that angle for the Die Moot cut maybe using excess equipment following the RW.

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Takiro

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2011, 10:17:28 PM »

So when last we left this conversation we had 12 regiments to cut from the AFFS to make the goal numbers set by Historical RW. If we cut the Anjin Muerto CrMM and the Point Barrow CrMM we reduce our numbers by 2. Cutting Hobbs by 2 regiments (thinking about redoing their original name as well) and Die Moot by 1 we open up another 3. The 7 regiments left to cut could be taken from the Avalon Hussars giving them a reasonable 19 regiments under arms.

   National Commands (30)
Davion Brigade of Guards (8 regiments)
Avalon Hussars (19 regiments)
Albion Training Cadre (3 regiments)
   Crucis RDCs (16)
Anjin Muerto Caballeros (1 regiment)
Broken Wheel Charioteers (2 regiments)
Messengers of Shiva (1 regiment)
Kestrel Grenadiers (2 regiments)
June Javelins (1 regiment)
Marlette Musketeers (2 regiments)
Avalon Borderers (3 regiments)
Point Barrow Bulldogs (1 regiment)
Remagen Panzer Brigade (2 regiments)
Tsamma Kommandos (1 regiment)
   Capellan RDCs (16)
Chesterton Dragoons (3 regiments)
Die Moot Armored Legion (1 regiment)
Emerson Pikemen (2 regiments)
Hobbs Guards (2 regiments)
Syrtis Fusiliers (8 regiments)
   Draconis RDCs (10)
Clovis Guards (2 regiments)
Robinson Reivers (1 regiment)
Franklin Gorgons (3 regiments)
Verde Lancers (2 regiments)
Tancredi Roughriders (1 regiment)
Kilbourne Defenders (1 regiment)
   March Militias (19)
Crucis March Militia (8 regiments)
Draconis March Militia (6 regiments)
Capellan March Militia (5 regiments)

Hmm, looks like my math is off somewhere as I still count 91 regiments which would require 3 more cuts. Any thoughts?
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Hessian

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2011, 02:36:21 AM »

Well, I think the easiest solution would be to reduce the Avalon Hussars a bit more.

Ciao
Hessian
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lrose

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2011, 07:28:25 AM »

Cutting the Avalon Hussars I think would make them see too small.  I'd play a paper game and have the Albion Training Cadre designated as something that doesn't count towards the force limit.  Maybe training commands don't count- or they are part of the academy and not officially part of the AFFS?
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Takiro

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2011, 03:42:20 PM »

That is an interesting idea Irose. The Albion did become a Star League Academy so its Training Cadre could be a SLDF formation even at this time. The facility is probably shared and the Cadres went to the SLDF or other AFFS formations. I like it! How does this look for a final overview of the AFFS circa 2575?

Final 2575 AFFS Unit Numbers (88 regiments)

  National Commands (27)
Davion Brigade of Guards (8 regiments)
Avalon Hussars (19 regiments)
   Crucis RDCs (16)
Anjin Muerto Caballeros (1 regiment)
Broken Wheel Charioteers (2 regiments)
Messengers of Shiva (1 regiment)
Kestrel Grenadiers (2 regiments)
June Javelins (1 regiment)
Marlette Musketeers (2 regiments)
Avalon Borderers (3 regiments)
Point Barrow Bulldogs (1 regiment)
Remagen Panzer Brigade (2 regiments)
Tsamma Kommandos (1 regiment)
   Capellan RDCs (16)
Chesterton Dragoons (3 regiments)
Die Moot Armored Legion (1 regiment)
Emerson Pikemen (2 regiments)
Hobbs Guards (2 regiments)
Syrtis Fusiliers (8 regiments)
   Draconis RDCs (10)
Clovis Guards (2 regiments)
Robinson Reivers (1 regiment)
Franklin Gorgons (3 regiments)
Verde Lancers (2 regiments)
Tancredi Roughriders (1 regiment)
Kilbourne Defenders (1 regiment)
   March Militias (19)
Crucis March Militia (8 regiments)
Draconis March Militia (6 regiments)
Capellan March Militia (5 regiments)

Pre-2575 AFFS Cuts

Also want to make some notes on cuts to the AFFS prior to this time. Irose gleaned that the Suns fielded 125 Mech regiments prior to the formation of the Star League. This would mean 37 such regiments were disappeared prior to the start of the Reunification War. I came up with a total of 6 Commands which were likely the source of “volunteers” for League participation. Meaning an average each “donated” an average of 6 regiments to the cause.

The Terran and Outworld Brigades that were likely successor formations probably patrolled their defunct Marches until they got shipped out for foreign service. Never fully trusted these border guards performed a vital task screening the Federation’s frontiers. Their totals were most likely more then 6 regiments a piece as both entire groups were sent packing to the SLDF.

Training Cadres were the next likely group shipped off to the SLDF or folded into other AFFS local units. The Albion was the largest such formation but its incorporation into the Star League Academy system means its Cadre would be absorbed at this time. Other Federation Military Academies could have incorporated their Cadres into Regional Defense Commands bolstering those units and eliminating the need to account for “second line assets”. Not sure if their total number would add up to a total of 6 Mech regiments but it might be close.

Independent Commands, aka as a number of private regiments, who no doubt supported Alexander during the Civil War probably left for SLDF service. Encouraged by generous offers of upgrades the First Lord would be wise to add these skilled units to his new army. Again I’m not sure if their total number would add up to a total of 6 Mech regiments but it might be close.

Not sure if half of the Syrtis Fusiliers joined the SLDF but I could think of a reason why. Some folks in these units probably still aren’t trusted by Alexander and this is a good way to weed out the undesirables. If the total number is half then 6 regiments is a good number for the Fusiliers to sacrifice at this time.

Finally the Avalon Hussars who make up the bulk of the AFFS would likely be asked to join the SLDF at this time. No doubt some would accept such an offer but 6 regiments could be a little too much to ask here.

Terran Brigade (entire formation)
Outworld Brigade (entire formation)
Training Cadres (largest of these being the Albion which was folded into the SLDF)
Independent Commands (a number of former private regiments)
Syrtis Fusiliers (possibly half of the formation)
Avalon Hussars (likely just a handful of older commands)

The seeds for the performance of the early Succession War AFFS can be planted here quite easily. Easy to see that concentrating on Regional Commands and March Militias would set the stage for a more defensive minded AFFS during the Star League era. This age of peace gives rise to a more static mindset that the Davions were slow to awake from in a post Star League time.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 11:03:39 PM by Takiro »
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Hessian

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2011, 05:34:12 AM »

Cutting the Avalon Hussars I think would make them see too small.  I'd play a paper game and have the Albion Training Cadre designated as something that doesn't count towards the force limit.  Maybe training commands don't count- or they are part of the academy and not officially part of the AFFS?

A very elegant solution(and better than my own suggestion). I like it.

That is an interesting idea Irose. The Albion did become a Star League Academy so its Training Cadre could be a SLDF formation even at this time. The facility is probably shared and the Cadres went to the SLDF or other AFFS formations. I like it! How does this look for a final overview of the AFFS circa 2575?

Also want to make some notes on cuts to the AFFS prior to this time. Irose gleaned that the Suns fielded 125 Mech regiments prior to the formation of the Star League. This would mean 37 such regiments were disappeared prior to the start of the Reunification War. I came up with a total of 6 Commands which were likely the source of “volunteers” for League participation. Meaning an average each “donated” an average of 6 regiments to the cause.

The Terran and Outworld Brigades that were likely successor formations probably patrolled their defunct Marches until they got shipped out for foreign service. Never fully trusted these border guards performed a vital task screening the Federation’s frontiers. Their totals were most likely more then 6 regiments a piece as both entire groups were sent packing to the SLDF.

Training Cadres were the next likely group shipped off to the SLDF or folded into other AFFS local units. The Albion was the largest such formation but its incorporation into the Star League Academy system means its Cadre would be absorbed at this time. Other Federation Military Academies could have incorporated their Cadres into Regional Defense Commands bolstering those units and eliminating the need to account for “second line assets”. Not sure if their total number would add up to a total of 6 Mech regiments but it might be close.

Independent Commands, aka as a number of private regiments, who no doubt supported Alexander during the Civil War probably left for SLDF service. Encouraged by generous offers of upgrades the First Lord would be wise to add these skilled units to his new army. Again I’m not sure if their total number would add up to a total of 6 Mech regiments but it might be close.

Not sure if half of the Syrtis Fusiliers joined the SLDF but I could think of a reason why. Some folks in these units probably still aren’t trusted by Alexander and this is a good way to weed out the undesirables. If the total number is half then 6 regiments is a good number for the Fusiliers to sacrifice at this time.

Finally the Avalon Hussars who make up the bulk of the AFFS would likely be asked to join the SLDF at this time. No doubt some would accept such an offer but 6 regiments could be a little too much to ask here.

Terran Brigade (entire formation)
Outworld Brigade (entire formation)
Training Cadres (largest of these being the Albion which was folded into the SLDF)
Independent Commands (a number of former private regiments)
Syrtis Fusiliers (possibly half of the formation)
Avalon Hussars (likely just a handful of older commands)

The seeds for the performance of the early Succession War AFFS can be planted here quite easily. Easy to see that concentrating on Regional Commands and March Militias would set the stage for a more defensive minded AFFS during the Star League era. This age of peace gives rise to a more static mindset that the Davions were slow to awake from in a post Star League time.

Sounds good to me.

Ciao
Hessian
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lrose

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2011, 09:32:10 AM »

Also want to make some notes on cuts to the AFFS prior to this time. Irose gleaned that the Suns fielded 125 Mech regiments prior to the formation of the Star League. This would mean 37 such regiments were disappeared prior to the start of the Reunification War

There is a lot of detail on these changes on Page 32-33 of H:RW.  H:RW specifically mentions that 37 regiments were transferred to the SLDF.  It also describes the regiments as:

Alexander Davion took the opportunity to prune the most troublesome, worst-trained and worst-equipped units from his military.


Quote
The Terran and Outworld Brigades that were likely successor formations probably patrolled their defunct Marches until they got shipped out for foreign service. Never fully trusted these border guards performed a vital task screening the Federation’s frontiers. Their totals were most likely more then 6 regiments a piece as both entire groups were sent packing to the SLDF.

Again the Terran Brigade is specifically mentioned as being transferred to the SLDF. 

From H:RW
The once-proud Terran Brigade—a large organization of regiments that had guarded the former Terran March and still harbored deep resentment against Davion for his eradication of the Terran March principality—was transferred whole

Based on that I would actually put the Terran Brigade at 12-18 regiments- roughly on par with the Syrtis Fusiliers, but less then the Avalon Hussars. I would put the Outworlds Brigade at about 6 regiments. (and for that matter I would put the Draconis Brigade at about 6-8 regiments.  we'll get back to this in a little bit)

Quote
Training Cadres were the next likely group shipped off to the SLDF or folded into other AFFS local units. The Albion was the largest such formation but its incorporation into the Star League Academy system means its Cadre would be absorbed at this time. Other Federation Military Academies could have incorporated their Cadres into Regional Defense Commands bolstering those units and eliminating the need to account for “second line assets”. Not sure if their total number would add up to a total of 6 Mech regiments but it might be close.

I think you are over doing the size of the Cadres- I think only Albion had a large formation at this point.

Quote
Independent Commands, aka as a number of private regiments, who no doubt supported Alexander during the Civil War probably left for SLDF service. Encouraged by generous offers of upgrades the First Lord would be wise to add these skilled units to his new army. Again I’m not sure if their total number would add up to a total of 6 Mech regiments but it might be close.

Again covered in H:RW- it says a number of former private regiments were transferred to the SLDF- I don't think they were given a choice or went voluntarily. 

Quote
Not sure if half of the Syrtis Fusiliers joined the SLDF but I could think of a reason why. Some folks in these units probably still aren’t trusted by Alexander and this is a good way to weed out the undesirables. If the total number is half then 6 regiments is a good number for the Fusiliers to sacrifice at this time.

H:RW is specific that it was half of the Syrtis Fusiliers.  So I would say 8 regiments. 

Quote
Finally the Avalon Hussars who make up the bulk of the AFFS would likely be asked to join the SLDF at this time. No doubt some would accept such an offer but 6 regiments could be a little too much to ask here.

Based on the description of the types of regiments that Alexander Davion gave to the SLDF I doubt there would be many Avalon Hussar regiments transferred- probably only the dregs if any. 

So I would say we have the following
16 regiments of the Terran Brigade (all but the unit that became the Clovis Guards)
8 regiments of Syrtis Fusilers
3 regiments Albion Cadre
8 independent regiments
2 Avalon Hussars

But wait you say- what about the Outworlds Brigade and the Draconis Brigade?  Well I suspect the Draconis Brigade is very small following the Civil War- I suspect they were small to start with and then they got the crap beat out of them in the civil war as they supported Laura Davion.  (Don't think there was a Draconis Brigade? It is indirectly mentioned in H:RW- "He [Alexander Davion] dismantled the structure of five equal principalities and in its place organized the Federated Suns into three marches, in the process combining the five disparate military organizations into a single united AFFS."  and "Gone were the five principalities and their virtual private armies." We definitely have the Avalon Hussars, Terran Brigade & Syrtis Fusiliers, so the other 2 must be the militaries of the Outworlds and Draconis marches. ) 

But I don't show them being transferred to the SLDF- instead what I think we need to do for SD is have these units become the core of the regional forces for the Draconis March and the Periphery areas of the Crucis March.  What I see happening is that rather then having regiments join the RDCs as whole units, they instead were disbanded and the soldiers returned to their home regions where many were recruited to join the newly forming RDCs.  (this way we can mention this in the intro to the RDCs and not have to rewrite all of the units. )

I still think the idea of having both RDCs and March Militias is valid- what I might emphasis more is that the March Militias are under command of the military leader of the March, while the RDCs are under the command  of the Combat Region leader.  The RDCs are more of a tactical unit, while the March Militias are a strategic reserve for the military commander of the March. 
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Takiro

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2011, 09:10:05 PM »

Great details Irose!

Based on that I would actually put the Terran Brigade at 12-18 regiments- roughly on par with the Syrtis Fusiliers, but less then the Avalon Hussars. I would put the Outworlds Brigade at about 6 regiments. (and for that matter I would put the Draconis Brigade at about 6-8 regiments.  we'll get back to this in a little bit)

I see the Terran and Outworld Brigades as almost provisional formations whose identity changed after the Civil War with the dissolution of their Marches. I don't see the Draconis, Capellan, or the Crucis March with the same place holder units after the Civil War because their territorial integrity remained as did their Regional Commands which assumed appropriate roles. The Draconis March as you point out was likely treated harshly and summarily reordered. However we have a reason to retain the Syrtis Fusiliers. I do agree with your size assessment of the Terran and Outworld Brigades at 12 and 6 regiments approximately.

I think you are over doing the size of the Cadres- I think only Albion had a large formation at this point.

Well lets take a look at possible Davion Military Academies of the day. We seem to have only five available. Two, Albion Military Academy on New Avalon and the Federated Naval Institute (FNI) on Layover, are definitely national institutes. The Chesterton Martial Academy we have as being established by Alexander after the Civil War but not too sure of its role or scope. Two question marks, the Point Barrow Military Academy and the Kilbourne Academy, might not be around at this time but I have no contradictory information saying they don't. However both these facilities could be simple Regional Academies at this point in time which the AFFS seems to rely upon heavily after the Civil War.

The March Academies (Robinson for the Terran March, Filtvet for the Outworlds March, Tancredi for the Draconis March, and New Syrits for the Capellan March) we had already agreed were abandoned after the Civil War which still works well. Still you are correct the numerous Training Battalions I was thinking of don't exist at this time so the Training Cadres don't approach 6 regiments but rather just 3 for the Albion. Nice job!

Again covered in H:RW- it says a number of former private regiments were transferred to the SLDF- I don't think they were given a choice or went voluntarily. 

I hear you Irose but I find it hard to believe that ever regiment was a bunch of malcontents that the SLDF received. Davion Independent Commands usually have a tradition of skilled service to the realm. Well I could see most of these units as noble forces who played games during the Civil War switching sides when it was advantageous all of them were bad? I doubt that you may have a few gems here more so then other cast offs.

H:RW is specific that it was half of the Syrtis Fusiliers.  So I would say 8 regiments. 

Well 8 regiments it is then my friend.  ;)

Based on the description of the types of regiments that Alexander Davion gave to the SLDF I doubt there would be many Avalon Hussar regiments transferred- probably only the dregs if any. 

You might be right but the Avalon Hussars, the Albion Training Cadres and the odd Independent seem to be the only place were the SLDF could find some redeeming value.

So I would say we have the following
16 regiments of the Terran Brigade (all but the unit that became the Clovis Guards)
8 regiments of Syrtis Fusilers
3 regiments Albion Cadre
8 independent regiments
2 Avalon Hussars

I'd modify that 37 regiments cut to include the Outworld Brigade.

Terran Brigade (12 regiments)
Syrtis Fusiliers (8 regiments)
Outworld Brigade (6 regiments)
Independent Commands (6 regiments)
Albion Training Cadre (3 regiments)
Avalon Hussars (2 regiments)

But I don't show them being transferred to the SLDF- instead what I think we need to do for SD is have these units become the core of the regional forces for the Draconis March and the Periphery areas of the Crucis March.  What I see happening is that rather then having regiments join the RDCs as whole units, they instead were disbanded and the soldiers returned to their home regions where many were recruited to join the newly forming RDCs.  (this way we can mention this in the intro to the RDCs and not have to rewrite all of the units. )

I still think the idea of having both RDCs and March Militias is valid- what I might emphasis more is that the March Militias are under command of the military leader of the March, while the RDCs are under the command  of the Combat Region leader.  The RDCs are more of a tactical unit, while the March Militias are a strategic reserve for the military commander of the March.

I agree with you here. I see the RDCs absorbing a lot of the old structures and units of the Principalities. Also I like the differences between the RDCs and MMs - it makes sense giving the information we know.
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lrose

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2011, 09:44:47 PM »

Two question marks, the Point Barrow Military Academy and the Kilbourne Academy, might not be around at this time but I have no contradictory information saying they don't. However both these facilities could be simple Regional Academies at this point in time which the AFFS seems to rely upon heavily after the Civil War.

These are mentioned in the write ups for the Kilbourne Defenders and Point Barrow Bulldogs.  They are just regional facilities- their cadres are the RDCs- nothing like on the Job training.

Quote
I hear you Irose but I find it hard to believe that ever regiment was a bunch of malcontents that the SLDF received. Davion Independent Commands usually have a tradition of skilled service to the realm. Well I could see most of these units as noble forces who played games during the Civil War switching sides when it was advantageous all of them were bad? I doubt that you may have a few gems here more so then other cast offs.

It really seems like the SLDF got the short end of the stick when it came to equipment and personnel transferred from the great houses.  There may be a few good units, but I suspect the majority were really poor. 



Quote
I'd modify that 37 regiments cut to include the Outworld Brigade.

Terran Brigade (12 regiments)
Syrtis Fusiliers (8 regiments)
Outworld Brigade (6 regiments)
Independent Commands (6 regiments)
Albion Training Cadre (3 regiments)
Avalon Hussars (2 regiments)

That works for me.


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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2011, 06:45:03 PM »

It really seems like the SLDF got the short end of the stick when it came to equipment and personnel transferred from the great houses.  There may be a few good units, but I suspect the majority were really poor. 

This seems pretty spot on and probably another reason why the SLDF was so quick to "fight ugly" or accept orders to fight ugly. It could also account for some of the SLDF's horrendous losses (beyond irregular warfare), and why the SLDF was so keen on enforcing their right to recruit new soldiers in every member-state after the war.

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2011, 01:32:01 PM »

why the SLDF was so keen on enforcing their right to recruit new soldiers in every member-state after the war.

This way, they could gain access to the "best".

How long would a tour in the SDLF last for a House unit?
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Trace Coburn

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Re: RW Supplemental House Deployment Tables
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2011, 08:06:37 AM »

why the SLDF was so keen on enforcing their right to recruit new soldiers in every member-state after the war.

This way, they could gain access to the "best".

How long would a tour in the SLDF last for a House unit?
  ... um, Ice Hellion, the whole point of the draw-down was that those units were gone from the House rosters forever: the units were permanently transferred to and absorbed into the SLDF, used to build entirely new SLDF formations, and the members of those transferred units served with the SLDF until the end of their contracts (or death, but I repeat myself).  Only loaning those units to the SLDF for a limited duration would've completely defeated the purpose of what was, essentially, an arms-limitation treaty.

  ... if y'all on the BTSD dev-team will pardon the interjection from a know-it-all non-member, that is.  :-[
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