OBT Forum

Takiro
International Organizations
« on: March 20, 2008, 12:29:31 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Hey gang. I was doing a write up for a certain Terran company and this popped up. There are after all some organizations that transcend national borders even in this post Star League period. The ones we initially thought of were medical in nature. Specifically a successor to the canon mentioned Star League Medical Association. I was also batting around a Healers Guild of associated health professionals but not sure. What do you think?

And what of the Red Cross and Red Crescent? Should we rename that organization the Red Star? Can you think of any other organizations be they medical, religious, political, military or fiscal? Let me know!
   Report to moderator   71.190.242.132 (?)


"It is better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt."
    U. S. Grant

"Don't think about what I say, cause I don't."
   John Luther
Ice Hellion
Contributor
Grand Champion
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3087

Part time builder of fallen Empires


View Profile WWW Email Personal Message (Offline)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 04:07:37 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Red Star sounds good (communism is still alive  Grin).

As for other organisations:
- fiscal: no, each State would like to control its incomes;
- military: no for the same reasons as above and if we want something international and military, we have mercs and some of the Underworlds factions;
- political: there we could have something like a peace party (men of good will unite against war);
- religious: the most obvious one; what happened to the Church?
- medical: Red Star is the answer.
   Report to moderator   81.56.118.167 (?)


In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
Takiro
Administrator
Avatar
*****
Online Online

Posts: 5060

digitdoger
View Profile Email Personal Message (Online)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2008, 04:50:50 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Quote from: Ice Hellion on March 20, 2008, 04:07:37 PM
Red Star sounds good (communism is still alive  Grin).

LOL! If you seek communism in BT go to Odessa. Wink This just be the modern incarnation of today's Red Cross and Red Crescent societies that was bought together duing the Star League era? That is the idea

Quote from: Ice Hellion on March 20, 2008, 04:07:37 PM
- fiscal: no, each State would like to control its incomes;

Todays equivalent of the World Bank or World Trade Organization comes to mind. Not sure if either could exist in our setting especially a trade or customs union like the WTO. Perhaps a Bank or Common Fund to develop worlds established during the Star League.

Quote from: Ice Hellion on March 20, 2008, 04:07:37 PM
- military: no for the same reasons as above and if we want something international and military, we have mercs and some of the Underworlds factions;

I don't see this at all myself. Organization like NATO or the Warsaw Pact just don't exist currently. Every House for themselves! Wink

Quote from: Ice Hellion on March 20, 2008, 04:07:37 PM
- political: there we could have something like a peace party (men of good will unite against war);

Not a bad idea here Ice, an international goodwill org would be a nice fit although they are likely to be frustrated in the extreme.

Quote from: Ice Hellion on March 20, 2008, 04:07:37 PM
- religious: the most obvious one; what happened to the Church?

Yes that is correct but not what I was going for. Many religions tend to have international appeal in our BTSD setting. Something here that spans religions unites them in a common goal throughout the Human Sphere. Perhaps a part of your international goodwill organization. Huh Not sure here however.
   Report to moderator   71.190.242.132 (?)


"It is better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt."
    U. S. Grant

"Don't think about what I say, cause I don't."
   John Luther
lrose
Administrator
Grand Champion
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1119


View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 05:24:25 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Quote from: Takiro on March 20, 2008, 04:50:50 PM
LOL! If you seek communism in BT go to Odessa. Wink This just be the modern incarnation of today's Red Cross and Red Crescent societies that was bought together duing the Star League era? That is the idea

I like the idea of a "new" organization that encompasses the Red Cross, Red Crescent and Red Shield of David- I like the idea of a single entity that trancends any one religion.  Not sure I like the name Red Star.  Maybe Red Crystal (which is apparently a "neutral" symbol which was adopted by the Geneva Conventions)


Quote
Todays equivalent of the World Bank or World Trade Organization comes to mind. Not sure if either could exist in our setting especially a trade or customs union like the WTO. Perhaps a Bank or Common Fund to develop worlds established during the Star League.

I would expect that there was such a group but that it would have been wiped out in the collapse of the SL

Quote
Not a bad idea here Ice, an international goodwill org would be a nice fit although they are likely to be frustrated in the extreme.

What would be funny would be to have several international good will organizations, each fighting the others to provide aid to people in need.


Other ideas:
Intersteller Cartographic Organization- This would be a group that helps improve navigation through the publications of charts and other publications. Maybe they keep a record of jump points and such?  Help plot routes through hazardous areas of space (base on the real world International Hydrographic Organization)

There could be a variety of organizations for things like Civil Rights, Health(such as an Anti-Bionics organization), labor unions (such as the Intersteller Brotherhood of Teamsters), maybe an international police organization (like Interpol), any number of trade groups (like one for farmers, chemical manufacturers, ore producers, industrial concerns, etc).

Also keep in mind international organizations do not need to exist in all states- for example the Civil rights groups may be in the FWL, LC, FS and TR and working to improve civil rights in the DC and CC or Interpol may only be in the FS and TR (or pick any states that have a common interest)
   Report to moderator   68.198.237.16 (?)
Takiro
Administrator
Avatar
*****
Online Online

Posts: 5060

digitdoger
View Profile Email Personal Message (Online)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 06:07:34 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Quote from: lrose on March 21, 2008, 05:24:25 PM
I like the idea of a "new" organization that encompasses the Red Cross, Red Crescent and Red Shield of David- I like the idea of a single entity that trancends any one religion.  Not sure I like the name Red Star.  Maybe Red Crystal (which is apparently a "neutral" symbol which was adopted by the Geneva Conventions)

I geuss Red Crystal would work, I did read that on wikipedia. I gotta to check the Ares Conventions. Think they might mention this subject in the specifics. If not how about we call them the Healers Guild although it would still need a symbol.. Huh

Quote from: lrose on March 21, 2008, 05:24:25 PM
Intersteller Cartographic Organization- This would be a group that helps improve navigation through the publications of charts and other publications. Maybe they keep a record of jump points and such?  Help plot routes through hazardous areas of space (base on the real world International Hydrographic Organization)

Not a bad idea but like a Banking Organization it might not be long for this setting. Interstellar traffic gets hit pretty hard.

Quote from: lrose on March 21, 2008, 05:24:25 PM
There could be a variety of organizations for things like Civil Rights, Health(such as an Anti-Bionics organization), labor unions (such as the Intersteller Brotherhood of Teamsters), maybe an international police organization (like Interpol), any number of trade groups (like one for farmers, chemical manufacturers, ore producers, industrial concerns, etc).

Also keep in mind international organizations do not need to exist in all states- for example the Civil rights groups may be in the FWL, LC, FS and TR and working to improve civil rights in the DC and CC or Interpol may only be in the FS and TR (or pick any states that have a common interest)

Labor Unions would be an idea. You think the Mercenary Guild (which is an obvious example of an International Organization) would support such efforts, not militarily mind you.

I like the Civil Rights idea. That would be a good one.
   Report to moderator   71.190.242.132 (?)


"It is better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt."
    U. S. Grant

"Don't think about what I say, cause I don't."
   John Luther
Takiro
Administrator
Avatar
*****
Online Online

Posts: 5060

digitdoger
View Profile Email Personal Message (Online)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2008, 07:35:32 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Well I did some more research into the Ares Conventions specifically. The text is included below for your review. The red symbol mentioned is an "S" for surrender and white true banners are more generic than anything recognizable like the Red Crystal, Cross or Crescent. Not that it makes much of a difference anyhow because the House Lords pretty much toss this treaty in the garbage anyway.

Quote
Ares Convention
We, the undersigned, on this 13th day of June, 2412, in accordance with our commitment to preserving human life, do solemnly pledge to prevent the loss of civilian life in war. Let this document testify to our desire to end the senseless atrocities attendant upon human conflict and our pledge to uphold the ideals contained with these Convention or suffer the harshest consequences.
 
Article I -- Nuclear Arms
The use of any nuclear device or variant thereof on a planetary surface or against any commercial vessel is prohibited. This prohibition extends to tactical nuclear blasts against the aforementioned targets. Controlled nuclear attacks in space against military targets are prohibited unless they occur at a minimum of 75,000 kilometers from the surface of any inhabited world in a star system.

Article II -- Orbital Bombardment
The use of orbital assets to bombard stationary targets (as defined in Appendix B, Section 4) on a planetary surface with the single exception of a valid military objective whose destruction the attacker deems necessary to ensure the survival of his own troops, is prohibited. In no case may any orbital attack take place in or near any heavily populated area, and any orbital attack is subject to ex post facto review by a duly appointed council from the signatory states.

Article III -- Surrender
To lessen the human cost of warfare, all combatants must accept the surrender of any unit that offers it. A white flag adorned with a red S will represent the universal surrender standard, so that any unit unable to communicate by conventional means may still surrender fairly. The universal surrender guidelines in Appendix E outline the provisions for the treatment of prisoners and fair compensation for the capturing forces upon the release of war prisoners to their native realms.
 
Article IV -- Safe Passage
The governments and military commands of the undersigned agree to recognize the aforementioned white flag as a symbol of truce. Any vessel, or vehicle, or person bearing such a truce flag shall be granted safe passage through any place, insofar as the bearer breaks no laws pertaining to that place, or initiates no hostile activity of any kind. Should the bearer of a truce flag engage in hostile activity as defined in Appendix F, the truce flag shall be deemed invalid, and any action taken against such an individual or individuals becomes the responsibility of those suffering said hostile action. Harassment of a truce flag bearer without provocation will be investigated by a duly appointed board of inquiry from the signatory states.

Article V --Urban Warfare Restrictions
No battle shall be waged in an urban area except under extreme circumstances. If the military objective of an assault lies in a city center, attacking troops must ensure that any hostile action taken causes the least possible amount of collateral damage. No attack may be made against any civilian target, for any reason. Civilian targets shall be deemed to include such life-supporting equipment such as water and air purifiers, agricultural assets, or any other item that enables a planet's population to continue their existence.

Article VI -- Chemical and Biological Weapons
Because chemical and biological agents kill human life indisciminately and often permanently damage the biosphere of any world suffering such as attack, the use, further development, and production of such agents is strictly prohibited.


Also been thinking more about the Interstellar Cartographic Organization and don't think it would survive until 2795 like a Star League Development bank. I was planning to have Cartographic Systems Unlimited (CSU), a company described in Fanbook 3, as the Sphere's main map maker.

Still working on a name for Human Rights group and the Red Crystal would sure be peeved about the Sucession War. Their neutrality might not be respected.  Intersteller Brotherhood of Teamsters works could mention them and other labor unions in the Syndicate write up.
   Report to moderator   71.190.242.132 (?)


"It is better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt."
    U. S. Grant

"Don't think about what I say, cause I don't."
   John Luther
Walegrin
Advocate
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 416

Walegrin walegrin42
View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2008, 07:38:31 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Would some form, or forms, of military service organization be appropriate?  Something along the lines of the VFW?  Specifically for an international version would there be something like a group for the veterans of the Amaris Coup?
   Report to moderator   72.251.63.33 (?)
Takiro
Administrator
Avatar
*****
Online Online

Posts: 5060

digitdoger
View Profile Email Personal Message (Online)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2008, 07:52:23 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Quote from: Walegrin on March 23, 2008, 07:38:31 PM
Would some form, or forms, of military service organization be appropriate?  Something along the lines of the VFW?  Specifically for an international version would there be something like a group for the veterans of the Amaris Coup?

Not a bad thought W. I think the Lyran Brotherhood of Cinnicatus gets its start as a veterans group. I would expect any mention of this type to make a cameo in the War Cabal write up.

Also forgot to mention should any group from Interstellar Players 1 or 2 make it into our Underworlds fanbook??

Possiblities include;
The Illumanti (ISP1)
Irian Corporate Cabal (ISP1)
The Exituri (ISP1)
Genecaste (ISP1)
Cult of the Saints Cameron (ISP2)
The Saurimat (ISP2)
Thuggees (ISP2)

Not sure about these groups from ISP2 due to lack of info.
THE HIDDEN
THE SOCIETY
MYSTERIES OF THE VOID
THE ANCIENTS

And the Jarnfolk would be included in a Periphery book later on for all fans of them.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 08:22:08 PM by Takiro »    Report to moderator   71.190.242.132 (?)


"It is better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt."
    U. S. Grant

"Don't think about what I say, cause I don't."
   John Luther
lrose
Administrator
Grand Champion
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1119


View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2008, 08:26:39 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Quote from: Takiro on March 23, 2008, 07:35:32 PM
Well I did some more research into the Ares Conventions specifically. The text is included below for your review. The red symbol mentioned is an "S" for surrender and white true banners are more generic than anything recognizable like the Red Crystal, Cross or Crescent. Not that it makes much of a difference anyhow because the House Lords pretty much toss this treaty in the garbage anyway.



But this doesn't work for an intersteller Red Cross (or whatever you call it).  The idea of the symbol is that is an easily identifiable symbol non-combat medical units and aid workers.  You don't want to confuse it with the symbol for surrender (which may be used by a combat unit).
 
   Report to moderator   76.23.157.74 (?)
Walegrin
Advocate
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 416

Walegrin walegrin42
View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 02:23:37 AM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Quote from: lrose on March 23, 2008, 08:26:39 PM



But this doesn't work for an intersteller Red Cross (or whatever you call it).  The idea of the symbol is that is an easily identifiable symbol non-combat medical units and aid workers.  You don't want to confuse it with the symbol for surrender (which may be used by a combat unit).
 


Maybe a red rod of Asclepius?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius
   Report to moderator   72.251.63.193 (?)
Hessian
Advocate
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 387


View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2008, 06:16:53 AM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Quote from: Takiro on March 23, 2008, 07:52:23 PM
Not a bad thought W. I think the Lyran Brotherhood of Cinnicatus gets its start as a veterans group. I would expect any mention of this type to make a cameo in the War Cabal write up.

Also forgot to mention should any group from Interstellar Players 1 or 2 make it into our Underworlds fanbook??

Possiblities include;
The Illumanti (ISP1)
Irian Corporate Cabal (ISP1)
The Exituri (ISP1)
Genecaste (ISP1)
Cult of the Saints Cameron (ISP2)
The Saurimat (ISP2)
Thuggees (ISP2)

Not sure about these groups from ISP2 due to lack of info.
THE HIDDEN
THE SOCIETY
MYSTERIES OF THE VOID
THE ANCIENTS

And the Jarnfolk would be included in a Periphery book later on for all fans of them.

Hmmm..... I could see something like the Irian Corporate Cabal being included.
I would also like to see the Cult of the Saints Cameron included(especially after just rereading the description in the Star League sourcebook).
The Thuggees might be quite interesting too.
Not too sure the Illuminati could/should be included(while their chapter in ISP1 was surely an interesting read, I think they might be a little too far-fetched).
Same with the Genecaste.
And what are the Saurimat? That name sounds vaguely familiar, but doesn't ring a bell.
Perhaps other groups from ISP2 could or should also be included once we get more info on them.

Regarding a symbol for an interstellar medical aid organization: What about an ankh?
According to wikipedia "the ankh has come to symbolize life and immortality, the universe, power and life-giving air and water."
Although its also used as a symbol of life after death or as a symbol of hermetic orders like the Rosicrucians.
I acknowledge that an Ankh might seem a little esoteric, but it is an already well-known symbol.
Just my two € cents though Wink
   Report to moderator   89.50.18.160 (?)
Takiro
Administrator
Avatar
*****
Online Online

Posts: 5060

digitdoger
View Profile Email Personal Message (Online)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 11:45:36 AM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
I hear you Hessian. Personally I don't like the Illumanti what so ever, I just don't find them believable or very real. Feel about the same on the Genecaste but perhaps they might better fit the Periphery book to come like the Jarnfolk. The Irian Corporate Cabal I have my doubts about too but they are much more likely to make the cut. The Saurimat are a predatory group of mercenary assassins from Shaul Kaula in the Draconis Combine. Not sure what book or BT source originally mentioned them but a one sentence description of them can be found on the InnerSphere Atlas and S7 I think. Thugees might be interesting not sure how they would fit. Cult of the Saints Cameron I was thinking we could certainly use perhaps as part of Project Phoenix or ComStar.

For the Red Crystal I have got to check House Steiner Sourcebook, think I remember something about the Red Cross there in.
   Report to moderator   71.190.242.132 (?)


"It is better to be thought a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt."
    U. S. Grant

"Don't think about what I say, cause I don't."
   John Luther
MechRat
Defender of Shattered Dawn
Administrator
Grand Champion
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1237

Help out a hungry Mechrat - Donate a 'Mech today

mechrat5150
View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2008, 12:23:48 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Quote from: Takiro on March 24, 2008, 11:45:36 AM
The Saurimat are a predatory group of mercenary assassins from Shaul Kaula in the Draconis Combine. Not sure what book or BT source originally mentioned them but a one sentence description of them can be found on the InnerSphere Atlas and S7 I think.

If I remember right, the Saurimat are referenced in the Gray Death Legion source/scenario book. Hassan Ali Khaled was a former member.

Forgive my ignorance, but are ISP1 & 2 canon sourcebooks, and if so, are they available to download for free or must they be purchased?

I like W's suggestion of the Rod of Asclepius as the symbol for the medical association. I think that the ankh (as Hessian suggested) was and maybe still is a religious symbol, which should be avoided. The crystal, depending on its form, might be misinterpreted as another geometric shape, and thereby ignored.

I believe that all of these organizations would cease to encompass the entire IS as soon as the War starts. Most would survive, but only across the realms that have a similar mind-set, as Irose suggested above and they would be closely watched to prevent espionage. I think that only the Healer organization would exist in the DC or CC due to their inherently insular (and dictatorial) cultures and then on an extremely limited and monitored basis.
   Report to moderator   151.202.160.107 (?)
All I want is just a nibble of 'Mech armor & myomer... is that so wrong? Wink
(avatar by Knightmare)

 

"Beware the quiet ones, for you know not what they think." - me
Hessian
Advocate
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 387


View Profile Email Personal Message (Offline)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2008, 01:07:07 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Quote from: MechRat on March 24, 2008, 12:23:48 PM

Forgive my ignorance, but are ISP1 & 2 canon sourcebooks, and if so, are they available to download for free or must they be purchased?


AFAIK ISP1 is a canon sourcebook(it was at least published by WKGames and FANPRO), describing secret organizations said to wield immense power, although several descriptions sound like pure conspiracy theories. Others are (at least for me) quite believable.
ISP2 has yet to be published, but is announced.
Sorry, AFAIK there is no free download for ISP1.

 
   Report to moderator   89.50.18.177 (?)
Takiro
Administrator
Avatar
*****
Online Online

Posts: 5060

digitdoger
View Profile Email Personal Message (Online)
   
   
Re: International Organizations
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2008, 04:34:02 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify Remove messageRemove Split TopicSplit Topic
Quote from: MechRat on March 24, 2008, 12:23:48 PM
If I remember right, the Saurimat are referenced in the Gray Death Legion source/scenario book. Hassan Ali Khaled was a former member.

I'll have to go look that up!

Quote from: MechRat on March 24, 2008, 12:23:48 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but are ISP1 & 2 canon sourcebooks, and if so, are they available to download for free or must they be purchased?

What Hessian said. If your looking for specific info on something perhaps I could help ya.

Quote from: MechRat on March 24, 2008, 12:23:48 PM
I like W's suggestion of the Rod of Asclepius as the symbol for the medical association. I think that the ankh (as Hessian suggested) was and maybe still is a religious symbol, which should be avoided. The crystal, depending on its form, might be misinterpreted as another geometric shape, and thereby ignored.

It isn't bad, if we did that I would just go with a Healers Guild and drop the Red _____ . Perhaps a tie in with the Merc Guild since they are one of the few to respect the Ares Conventions and most nations don't.

Quote from: MechRat on March 24, 2008, 12:23:48 PM
I believe that all of these organizations would cease to encompass the entire IS as soon as the War starts. Most would survive, but only across the realms that have a similar mind-set, as Irose suggested above and they would be closely watched to prevent espionage. I think that only the Healer organization would exist in the DC or CC due to their inherently insular (and dictatorial) cultures and then on an extremely limited and monitored basis.

I know what you mean. Any groups scope is going to be limited by the outbreak of hostilities. Even the Civil Rights group isn't going to be liked by the Houses during the Succession War. What happens with the Purge and House Davion??