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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2009, 11:29:46 AM »
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Quote from: lrose on January 17, 2009, 10:03:00 PM
Help, Help, I'm being oppressed. Come see the violence inherent in the system.
Yeah your right- there are probably a few wackos who think everyone should have equal rights- the rest have been brainwashed by Cameron that only the Spheroids should have any rights.
Thanks for the nice words.
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."
The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2009, 09:25:14 PM »
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Still kicking around thoughts about the Scavengers section and possibly another group for the Reconstructionists although they may not fit. For scavengers I'm still going over LosTech or rather technological stagnation. While this Dark Age may have had its roots in the decline of the Star League its death knell was likely the Amaris Coup. Science and innovation really get snuffed out as a result of the Usurper seizure of Terra. The greatest minds even if not captured and forced into weapons development, a task for which some may have been poorly suited, would see their funding cut. Even those free to pursue their own scientific goals in the Houses would feel the shock of interstellar commerce grinding to a halt not too mention the Houses own military buildups. So by the time we reach 2795 the in universe publication of this book science has taken a major hit for nearly thirty years and its only getting worse.
As part of the total war that is encompassing the Human Sphere scientific development itself could come under fire. I'm not talking ComStar's Holy Shroud but the ongoing destruction of infrastructure by all sides trying to take their opponent's brain trust so to speak. Obviously your not going to waste resources on killing everyone but the most noted scientists might come under fire. Of course in the canon universe you have ComStar with open arms which might repeat itself here. Of course ComStar will play a major roll in this section of the book not only as a recruiter but as a collector. However in BTSD what other groups could be include here?
Lastly the group I was thinking of for the Reconstructionist section. No name as of yet and their objective seems to run counter to the overall theme but I'll throw it out there. Basically these guys think it would be a very good idea to kill every Successor Lord they can get their hands on. Perhaps they were inspired by Amaris or could they be his followers? With all the death and destruction of the Succession War the Lords are easy marks for some. Well not easy to kill of course but easy to hate and want dead. This gang of assassins has taken it upon themselves to try and snuff out every one of these villains (Successor Lords). Maybe after their all dead peace will finally come to the Human Sphere. Perhaps they see Amanda Cameron's unwillingness to fight as a trait that can be duplicated in the other great families if enough blood is spilled. Obviously these folks wouldn't be popular with security and intelligence agencies but for the reasons I stated above might draw significant support from the people. Something far fetched, outside of the Amaris clan could the Periphery be involved? Sounds like a good group for them to cheer on maybe get some vengeance. Heck perhaps a few big kills might destabilize a House that occupies their ancient territories. Thoughts?
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2009, 03:32:12 AM »
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Quote from: Takiro
For scavengers I'm still going over LosTech or rather technological stagnation. While this Dark Age may have had its roots in the decline of the Star League its death knell was likely the Amaris Coup. Science and innovation really get snuffed out as a result of the Usurper seizure of Terra. The greatest minds even if not captured and forced into weapons development, a task for which some may have been poorly suited, would see their funding cut.
IIRC ComStar estimated that it would only take the SS about 30 years to recover the technology lost in the fury of SWI & SWII. What really drove a stake through the heart of the IS science & high-tech capabilities was the unending grind of SWIII which prevented any chance of a recovery as long as it carried on. No matter how savage (& BTSD with the TR will have a far greater potential for preserving technology) the SW becomes, actually exterminating enough engineers and scientists to plunge the IS into the dark ages without totally destroying the SS themselves will probably be impossible. However time will do that very nicely as the pre war generations start dying off and the generations following them will be less and less educated on the more advanced aspects of SL technology.
Technology is fairly level based, you need this to make that. As long as you just blow off the top (SWI & SWII) it will recover swiftly. If you really want to grind it down you need to remove several more levels below or destroy the ability to invest in technology and infrastructure (SWIII). And even then it can likely be recovered faster than it was originally developed since you are unlikely to have destroyed all documentation and it is easier to get funding to recover something that will work rather than reserarching something that might work.
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2009, 07:44:30 AM »
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Quote from: CJvR on January 22, 2009, 03:32:12 AM
IIRC ComStar estimated that it would only take the SS about 30 years to recover the technology lost in the fury of SWI & SWII. What really drove a stake through the heart of the IS science & high-tech capabilities was the unending grind of SWIII which prevented any chance of a recovery as long as it carried on.
Not quite- the real problem was Comstar itself and operation Holy Shroud. If Comstar had not made a concerted effort to kill scientists, and destroy research labs, the IS would have recovered lost technology 3rd SW or not.
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2009, 12:39:26 PM »
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Quote from: lrose
Not quite- the real problem was Comstar itself and operation Holy Shroud. If Comstar had not made a concerted effort to kill scientists, and destroy research labs, the IS would have recovered lost technology 3rd SW or not.
Holy shroud certainly didn't improve things but it was SWIII that effectively ended any recovery effort. Without SWIII it is doubtful Holy Shroud could have done enough damage to prevent a technological renaisance, the foundation on which to build was still wide enough to absorb ROMs efforts. It took over a century of war and more importantly a continued wartime/scavenger economy to smash the IS to the O-BT levels.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 02:25:36 PM by CJvR » Report to moderator 213.112.69.166 (?)
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2009, 01:42:22 PM »
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Quote from: CJvR on January 22, 2009, 12:39:26 PM
Holy shroud certainly didn't improve things but it was SWIII that effectively ended any recovery effort. Without SWIII it is doubtful Holy Shroud could have done enough damage to pervent a technological renaisance, the foundation on which to build was still wide enough to absorb ROMs efforts. It took over a century of war and more importantly a continued wartime/scavenger economy to smash the IS to the O-BT levels.
I think you under estimate just how devestating the 1st & 2nd SW were to the IS. By the 3rd SW the houses were no longer nuking every factory they saw. Also keep in mind Holy Shroud was launched during the 2nd SW, ensuring that by the time we get to the third SW anyone capable of recovering lostech has already been dealt with.
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2009, 02:24:29 PM »
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Quote from: lrose
I think you under estimate just how devestating the 1st & 2nd SW were to the IS. By the 3rd SW the houses were no longer nuking every factory they saw. Also keep in mind Holy Shroud was launched during the 2nd SW, ensuring that by the time we get to the third SW anyone capable of recovering lostech has already been dealt with.
ROM might have underestimated them, it was their analysis that claimed that it would take 30 years to recover the tech lost by the end of SWII. The first round of H-S only killed off a few top people and destroyed a few R&D facilities, also the effects of H-S was included in the ROM estimates. Despite the devestation of the first two SW and operation H-S the ROM estimate was for technological recovery in 30 years, and it is not an unreasonable estimate since the scavanger economy would not have done as much damage then as it would after a century of SWIII.
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2009, 02:43:54 PM »
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Quote from: Takiro on January 21, 2009, 09:25:14 PM
Lastly the group I was thinking of for the Reconstructionist section. No name as of yet and their objective seems to run counter to the overall theme but I'll throw it out there. Basically these guys think it would be a very good idea to kill every Successor Lord they can get their hands on. Perhaps they were inspired by Amaris or could they be his followers? With all the death and destruction of the Succession War the Lords are easy marks for some. Well not easy to kill of course but easy to hate and want dead. This gang of assassins has taken it upon themselves to try and snuff out every one of these villains (Successor Lords). Maybe after their all dead peace will finally come to the Human Sphere. Perhaps they see Amanda Cameron's unwillingness to fight as a trait that can be duplicated in the other great families if enough blood is spilled. Obviously these folks wouldn't be popular with security and intelligence agencies but for the reasons I stated above might draw significant support from the people. Something far fetched, outside of the Amaris clan could the Periphery be involved? Sounds like a good group for them to cheer on maybe get some vengeance. Heck perhaps a few big kills might destabilize a House that occupies their ancient territories. Thoughts?
Interesting idea.
Perhaps those guys see the House Lords as the main reason for the Amaris' Coup and they think that if they are killed with most of their children (except some specifically selected), humanity will live in peace.
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."
The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2009, 03:39:32 PM »
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Yeah that is the idea Ice. Just need a name for the Creed or group something that runs contrary to Divine Right or Mandate of Heaven perhaps. As these were justifications for rulership in the past\, I'm just throwing stuff around for now.
Actually CJvR the 3rd SW was a kinder gentler conflict where the participants abided by the Ares Conventions and generally steered clear of destroying vital infrastructure. Scientists were safer than before and if not for ComStar's Holy Shroud a recovery might have taken place. The time period I want to focus on is 2795 however so what stagnation is taking place? Any lostech prospectors out yet? Do people even realize at this time how advanced the Star League was? By that I mean certain Hegemony (Royal) tech wasn't even widely known about. The Houses might not miss it that much. Maybe the true indicator is a Terran who has lived through this period. They could tell you how much things have declined. Thoughts?
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2009, 04:19:20 PM »
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Actually CJvR the 3rd SW was a kinder gentler conflict where the participants abided by the Ares Conventions and generally steered clear of destroying vital infrastructure.
Yeah, but a wartime scavenger economy will destroy advanced equipment and machinery just as certainly as a nuke. Imagine advanced machinery used to make something very sophisticated - then you lose one critical component needed in the manufacturing.
What happens then?
Well either the equipment will be re-worked to make simpler things or it will be mined for parts to machines still running. That's how the SS staggered through SWIII.
Quote from: Takiro
Scientists were safer than before and if not for ComStar's Holy Shroud a recovery might have taken place.
Not until someone poured enough resources into R&D, which didn't happen until SWIII more or less ground to a halt and the Davions founded NAIS. Indeed it can't really happen as long as SWIII rages with even modest ferocity.
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The time period I want to focus on is 2795 however so what stagnation is taking place? Any lostech prospectors out yet?
I would say shortage not stagnation. You order an ERPPC from a company and they will probably say "sure as long as you can provide us with component X" while a century later later they would stare at you as if you had gone insane since there no longer was anyone around who knew how to make that stuff and hadn't been for generations.
LosTech wouldn't become LosTech until far later in 2795 it would just be temporarily unavailable.
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Do people even realize at this time how advanced the Star League was? By that I mean certain Hegemony (Royal) tech wasn't even widely known about.
The SS probably snapped up as much high tech as they could during the coup and the following civil war and focused their efforts at upgrading key military plants. But I doubt SL tech penetrated very deep into the civilian sector. This made the SS grip on SL tech very fragile and SWI & II broke their hold since it destroyed or damaged most such facilities.
Quote from: Takiro
The Houses might not miss it that much. Maybe the true indicator is a Terran who has lived through this period. They could tell you how much things have declined. Thoughts?
In the Blake documents they comment on the Wobblers upgrading Hesperus II to run even beyond it's SL capabilities. It is not just the weapons but how effectively you can manufacture them.
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2009, 12:25:28 PM »
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Not Lostech but Scavengers trying to find the needed component to build ...
A bit like Relic Hunters.
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."
The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2009, 10:34:54 PM »
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Quote from: CJvR on January 22, 2009, 04:19:20 PM
Yeah, but a wartime scavenger economy will destroy advanced equipment and machinery just as certainly as a nuke. Imagine advanced machinery used to make something very sophisticated - then you lose one critical component needed in the manufacturing.
What happens then?
I agree with CJvR here. By SWIII the layered industrial infrastructure of the past has been dead for centuries. We have factories like Corean's which produces Valkyries via an automated process that's unique. Although the "product" of the factory is a factored portion of the FedSun's economy, the factory, which is one of a kind does not. Technologically the factory is a fluke of the scavenger economy. Operating through shear luck rather than through a true engineering connection to the existing industrial/economic base.
It breaks down: Oops, all gone.
It's raided: Oops, all gone.
Subcontractors disappear: Oops, all gone.
Quote from: CJvR on January 22, 2009, 04:19:20 PM
LosTech wouldn't become LosTech until far later in 2795 it would just be temporarily unavailable.The SS probably snapped up as much high tech as they could during the coup and the following civil war and focused their efforts at upgrading key military plants.
In canon, absolutely correct CJvR.
In the BTSD timeline, I doubt it. Since the Great Houses never portioned off the carcass of the defunct Terran Hegemony the Republic would retain most, if not all of the Hegemony's remaining advanced production capabilities firmly under their control. The Successor States will undoubtedly acquire some caches of advanced weapons during the turmoil of the Coup and its aftermath (at least until the Republic sorts itself out and Kerensky makes the big send off), but once the Republic becomes a reality it'll be able to clamp down and readily available sources will dry out (they could always raid of course). And since the Successor States lack the production capabilities to replicate or replace the acquired weapons they'll soon be swapped out for standard equipment.
It's just like early IS units that managed to acquire Clan-Tech. If they could mod it for use, the equipment only lasted as long as it was undamaged. It couldn't be replaced or repaired otherwise and was soon replaced for standard varieties.
As far as technicians are concerned, even if a few Terran techs took employment with the Successor States to service the advanced weapons it'd be a poor career move seeing how a viable Republic effectively places a shelf life on their tenure and value as "special" employees.
Quote from: CJvR on January 22, 2009, 04:19:20 PM
But I doubt Star League tech penetrated very deep into the civilian sector. This made the SS grip on SL tech very fragile and SWI & II broke their hold since it destroyed or damaged most such facilities.
By civilian technology are you referring to advanced consumer goods? Because the cornerstone to the Star League's (and by default the Terran Hegemony's) economy was the sale of advanced consumer goods like portable computers, water-purification equipment, etc.
Thanks to the integrated economy of the Star League, the Hegemony was able to hit the Member-State economies two-fold. On one hand Terran companies manufactured finished goods in ungodly amounts, clearly feeding the voracious civilian markets of six interstellar nations. But the Hegemony also supplied key components or semi-finished goods to the Member-States native industries.
With the fall of the League and the destruction of the Coup, native industries incumbent upon key pieces of Terran technology necessary to produce finished goods will suffer. (Hopefully) They'll be able to switch to a less sophisticated replacement, but in most cases the design or factory will be abandoned for something else entirely. (That was the beauty of the League economy for the Terran state until it went belly up.)
In terms of value/production/time lost in a conversion to a less sophisticated factory/design, consider the effects of the 1st & 2nd Succession War. Even if the factory doesn't disappear in a nuclear fireball, it may never recover into something useful because of the war's ancillary effects on the nation's economy.
So I disagree with the extent in which Terran technology penetrated the Successor States, but the end result is still the same.
Quote from: Takiro on January 22, 2009, 03:39:32 PM
The time period I want to focus on is 2795 however so what stagnation is taking place? By that I mean certain Hegemony (Royal) tech wasn't even widely known about. The Houses might not miss it that much.
(Terran) Technological development is definitely in the gutter.
The Coup cost the Terran State decades in research development as well as a whole generation of potential scientists. Kerensky's Exodus will cost the nascent Republic even more of the remaining scientific community since the intelligentsia is historically notorious for buying into the possibility of creating an "ideal society." Kerensky appealed specifically to the surviving scientific community and many would jump at the chance to begin anew rather than stay behind and face the realities of a post-Coup Terran state.
That being said:
1. There's a major material cost required in rebuilding Terran research centers.
2. The possibility (and probability) that there is a "brain drain" in certain sectors of scientific development, and a generation gap as children born before and during the Coup would suffer from a lack of formal training, education, etc. That's time you simply can't regain
3. The Republic will be financially strapped to spend money on research.
When you have a choice between spending on either irradiated land reclamation or Jump Drive research, but not both and your people are starving, you'll (hopefully) make the right choice. The Republic can not get blood, or in this case, money from a stone. If they're going to survive economically and regain a measure of prosperity, the nation will need to retain its market economy & feed its people. Not spend dwindling monies on advanced research (if it's even possible to conduct it in the first place.)
Quote from: Takiro on January 22, 2009, 03:39:32 PM
Any lostech prospectors out yet? Do people even realize at this time how advanced the Star League was?
LosTech Prospectors? Probably not in the traditional sense. There will definitely be Terran sponsored govt. & corp. salvage teams sifting through the wreckage of the Hegemony for useful items and materials that may have survived the Coup. But in the Successor States you probably won't see anything in the traditional sense until much later, if at all.
As for people realizing how advanced Star League Technology was...it would depend on location. People living on worlds like Bryant would be intimately familiar with how precious League tech was (is) and how precarious their survival rests on its smooth function. Elsewhere the same scenario would play itself out on dozens of worlds who's survival depended on advanced League terraforming or water purification equipment.
These worlds would be suffering survival anxiety the minute the Coup started, let alone the Succession War.
Quote from: Takiro on January 22, 2009, 03:39:32 PM
Maybe the true indicator is a Terran who has lived through this period. They could tell you how much things have declined. Thoughts?
What was and what is, is a pretty common theme that crosses every cultural divide. Although individual visions of the past may differ, once the Succession War starts in earnest there will be little to differentiate between a Terran who survived the Coup and a citizen of one of the Great Houses.
Both will have survived conflict, famine, and death. Their old way of life stripped away in the fires of total war.
So how much have things declined? Well, Peace is Peace and War is War. People will have a fairly good idea how things have declined once the bombs start to drop.
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2009, 07:42:21 PM »
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More ideas hit me for scavengers today. We could always include speculation of what might have been? Secret projects the Star League was working on prior to the Amaris Coup. And what did Kerensky take with him on the Exodus? An accounting of this impressive haul would sure be a neat addition to the book. Also something to throw Irose's way. The effect of the fall of the Star League on the Periphery. Lets detail its reliance on disappearing tech. Then we have the InnerSphere war economy. Disappearance of consumer goods. Emeging scientific gaps. What other tech related issues can we include?
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2009, 02:49:08 AM »
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Quote from: Takiro on January 27, 2009, 07:42:21 PM
And what did Kerensky take with him on the Exodus? An accounting of this impressive haul would sure be a neat addition to the book.
You mean the complete list?
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In Turn they tested each Clan namesake in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle. Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down. All failed to match the predator's speed and grace. Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."
The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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Re: Open Development!
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2009, 09:37:08 AM »
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Quote from: Takiro on January 27, 2009, 07:42:21 PM
More ideas hit me for scavengers today. We could always include speculation of what might have been? Secret projects the Star League was working on prior to the Amaris Coup. And what did Kerensky take with him on the Exodus? An accounting of this impressive haul would sure be a neat addition to the book. Also something to throw Irose's way. The effect of the fall of the Star League on the Periphery. Lets detail its reliance on disappearing tech. Then we have the Inner Sphere war economy. Disappearance of consumer goods. Emerging scientific gaps. What other tech related issues can we include?
Funny, didn't I mentioned govt. & corp speculation? Roll Eyes
The type of "prospector" would definitely depend on the location. Seeing how the Hegemony survives ala Republic, the breadth of the rebuilding taking place would require a concentrated effort to recover any thing of use. The upheaval of the Coup would create some serious sorting.
This is a great situation with plenty of opportunity for profit.
The Republic would see the development of a whole new addition to the market, with state, corp., and independent prospectors sifting for tech/info gold. Interesting avenues to exploit would be the conflict incurred when ill-prepared individuals take part in unauthorized expeditions, or compete with one another, or with a sponsored expedition. There's also the heightened possibility of espionage, since the Great Houses will undoubtedly use this opportunity to garner any possible advantage. A great deal of fiction is possible with just the Republic alone.
I mention the Republic exclusively because of the shear wealth of sites, opportunities, material and need. The other Great Houses will all see their fair share of prospecting, but circa 2795 in a slightly limited scope.
In the Taurian Concordat & former Rim Worlds Republic you'd see the same type of market development taking place in the Republic but for different reasons and (in the Rim Worlds) for different materials. The Concordat suffered a great deal of fighting during the Rebellion and Coup, and with the break down of the Star League materials necessary for rebuilding the nation would not be quickly forthcoming, (like after the Reunification War) so salvaging salvageable materials would be a high priority. The same type of salvage operations would also occur in the Republic but with the added bonus of possibly liberating lost Hegemony goodies hidden there by Amaris during the Coup.
Mind you this is really broad, because people in every state suffering from war will be engaged in some type of salvage operation simply to regain a piece of what was lost.
And I only cite these three examples because of the shear scope their salvage operations are likely to encompass.
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