OBT Forum
General BattleTech => General Discussion => Vehicle Factory => Topic started by: masterarminas on December 04, 2014, 02:48:59 PM
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Why wouldn't Clan Hell's Horses push for a new OmniVehicle? I mean, they've already got one (the Epona hover tank), but is one really enough?
This might not come to anything, but here we go . . . my Nike.
EDIT: Vehicle removed until the actual contest begins.
MA
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Love the fluff
I'd swap the Pulse Laser on the Prime with an ER model and sinks but otherwise works for me
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His fluff is always lovely Dragon Cat. ;)
Now masterarminas has jumped the gun by a month but I would love to talk about this subject. This was to be the final and most controversial section of the Quicksilver Trails. Before we proceed I want to get your thoughts.
!!!!!!!!PLEASE NO FURTHER SUBMISSIONS YET!!!!!!!!!!
Following the OmniFighter phase a total of 21 Primary Manufacturing slots (see below) will remain for the Clans. If your wondering 51 of these major manufacturing sites have been set up by Quicksilver to maximize the output of OmniMechs for the Clan war effort while 21 are reserved for OmniFighters (72 total). This will not include numerous Secondary Facilities that will also continue to crank out a handful of lesser designs for use as well. The fate of the remaining 21 sites is what we have to decide on.
Available Production Slots (21)
Blood Spirit [1]
Burrock [ 0 ]
Cloud Cobra [1]
Coyote [3]
Diamond Shark [2]
Fire Mandrill [1]
Ghost Bear [1]
Goliath Scorpion [2]
Hell's Horses [3]
Ice Hellion [1]
Jade Falcon [ 0 ]
Nova Cat [2]
Smoke Jaguar [ 0 ]
Snow Raven [ 0 ]
Star Adder [2]
Steel Viper [1]
Wolf [1]
Now to each Clan's attitude on Vehicles which I have tried to compile into a list below. I figure Hell's Horses and Blood Spirit will each push for the creation of Combat OmniVehicle Lines. Both of their toumans utilize them in front line units and as such would want to develop them. However, Jade Falcon is gonna obviously be the most opposed to this waste of resources as Vehicles are non-combatant support units. They will be backed by Smoke Jaguar, Burrock, Coyote, and Nova Cat. Coyote (I have plans for them) and Nova Cat who have industrial space left will focus on the production of standard BattleMechs to bolster second line formations that will better bolster second line units. Snow Raven would I think be in favor of an OmniVehicle program backing their Spirit allies but they just do not have any lines to dedicate to it. ;) So you have 3 Clans for and 5 against thus far according to my math.
Combat Vehicle Roles 3052
Blood Spirit – Front Line (1)
Burrock – Solhama (3)
Cloud Cobra – Second Line (2)
Coyote – Solhama (3)
Diamond Shark – Solhama (3)
Fire Mandrill – varies; Kindraa Payne and Kline use Vehicles
Ghost Bear – Second Line (2)
Goliath Scorpion – Solhama (3)
Hell's Horses – Front Line (1)
Ice Hellion – Flurry (3)
Jade Falcon – Non-Combatant (4)
Nova Cat – Solhama (3)
Smoke Jaguar – Solhama (3)
Snow Raven – Second Line (2)
Star Adder – Second Line (2)
Steel Viper – Solhama (3)
Wolf – Solhama (3)
All Clans participating would begin to outfit line units with armor like the Horses and the Spirits although in a smaller (say star per cluster) or lesser (second line?) fashion at least at first. So first off tell me if you agree with these assertions. Second what would these Clans do?
1. Wolf & Star Adder. This is a story line development and probably the biggest surprise to the Clans but I want to hear what you think. There is a growing "alliance" here and I think both Clans would back a venture to create a front line Clan Tank force. Canon wise Wolf is led by Natasha and Phelan who have seen the effectiveness of Vehicles in the InnerSphere. Plus the Adders do have a healthy respect for these units even though I still question if they see second line or solhama service with them at this time. Also drakensis sort of knows where I am going with Virgilia Truscott which I am trying to incorporate as best as possible into my storyline. Anywho I did plan for both Clans to participate with at least 1 Vehicle line a piece. What do you think?
2. Cloud Cobra. They do use Vehicles to augment their touman and they are present in large numbers in their second line forces. The big draw back is their resource situation which is poor and their aerospace preference. Would they go with a second line fighter for their remaining line or how about an attack helicopter?? They are allies of the Star Adders...
3. Diamond Shark. This is a favorite Clan of mine which will be ditching Ian Hawker soon enough but would they participate in this endeavor? They really do not use Vehicles outside of Solhama units and I could easily see them choosing 2 standard BattleMechs to produce. Would it be profitable to designate 1 line for an OmniVehicle??
4. Fire Mandrill. This is a tale of many Kindraa with most not using Vehicles outside of Solhama units. Kindraa Payne and Kline do however use Vehicles and with Payne's lack of Elementals I have to wonder do certain combat vehicles still see front line service with conventional infantry? Plus Kindraa Payne does get along with Hell's Horses.... Does their 1 line go BattleMech or OmniVehicle? At best their Khans split on a vote for and against in the Council.
5. Ghost Bear. While they do use Vehicles in Second Line units they are perhaps along with Diamond Shark and Steel Viper the two hardest sells. A front line OmniVehicle? Hmm.... The Bears are a conservative lot plus they may not care for this Hell's Horses led effort. What do you think?
6. Goliath Scorpion. Oh masterarminas, as our leading Scorpion enthusiast what do you think? Personally I do not see the Scorpions as anything but Mechwarriors and Aerospace Pilots. Outside Solhama units I can not find any Vehicles. So would they back such a proposal? Would they make an OmniVehicle? They certainly think outside the box.
7. Ice Hellion. After the Hellions Fury campaign you have really seen the growth of Flurry units to protect their far flung holdings. A fast OmniVehicle (HoverTank) would help augment their thin force strength quickly and perhaps they would even authorize Second Trails of Position for such positions.
8. Steel Viper. Yup they use a large body of trueborn conventional infantry would they want an OmniVehicle though? Outside of Solhama units I really can not find any Vehicles. That being said a quick look at Vehicle fluff has them deploying the Asshur Artillery Spotter, Donar Assault Helicopter, Ku Wheeled Assault Tank, and the Oro Heavy Tank. This is possibly the most mentioned Vehicle Clan in the TRO3060.
So what do you think??
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6. Goliath Scorpion. Oh masterarminas, as our leading Scorpion enthusiast what do you think? Personally I do not see the Scorpions as anything but Mechwarriors and Aerospace Pilots. Outside Solhama units I can not find any Vehicles. So would they back such a proposal? Would they make an OmniVehicle? They certainly think outside the box.
And Elementals, Takiro. Can't forget them.
Sigh. While I would LOVE to see a limited introduction of vehicles as a low-cost means to improve the Touman, the Scorpions are too traditional for that. However, we know that there is a Police/Para-military sub-caste of Warrior that rate below even Garrison forces. Perhaps they could use an OmniVehicle (troop carrier/direct fire support?) and if so, I'd see the Scorpions jumping on that with both feet.
And . . . sorry about jumping the gun. I thought from your earlier comments that we weren't doing vehicles. My apologies.
MA
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The Revival Trials PDF puts the Nova Cats Touman along the lines as traditional as the Jade Falcons although they are less strict with tradition and more willing to adapt.
That said I still don't think the Nova Cats would bother with an OmniVehicle pre-Abjuration :-\
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The Revival Trials PDF puts the Nova Cats Touman along the lines as traditional as the Jade Falcons although they are less strict with tradition and more willing to adapt.
That said I still don't think the Nova Cats would bother with an OmniVehicle pre-Abjuration :-\
Agreed Dragon Cat. I looked the Nova Cats feelings on Vehicles in FM ComStar which is about 10 years after this in the canon time line. To summarize it said the Clans do not like Vehicles much and neither do we. I have them as a no vote on the issue and their spare production will be put towards BattleMechs.
And Elementals, Takiro. Can't forget them.
Knew I forgot something but hey I am getting old. I agree with your read on the Scorpions at this time, very traditional Clan approach to warfare meaning the Vehicle is obsolete as a line fighter. Do you think they could be convinced otherwise? Part of the Wolf/Adder argument for the development is the changing circumstances the Clans are now in with the Occupation Zone. Sure before the invasion Vehicles may have proven useless in Clan on Clan trails but now you are fighting the InnerSphere and trying to incorporate its territories. The Scorpions are a pretty unconventional bunch and voting for the measure in the Grand Council could highlight their curiosity. I would like to get them in on 1 OmniVehicle design (not sure what that would be?) with their other line going to a BattleMech. What do you think?
And do not apologize. Been meaning to start this thread before.
8)
Love to hear other opinions! How about the other Clans? How would they react to this??
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Maybe, Takiro . . . in the future. Not in 3052. Talking about the Scorpions accepting vehicles. One thought that I had was that when the Scorpions absorbed the remnants of the ELH (a combined arms force, need I not remind you) might be that the absorption could be the trigger to make some Scorpions question the validity of Clan conventional wisdom as regards vehicles. Something like that could happen sooner, but only if the Scorpions (and their rank-and-file, not just the leadership) were just taken aback by the incredible performance of a front-line Clan force using vehicles to win against all odds and predictions.
Maybe.
Even so, I think that the Scorpions would approach it slow . . . maybe replace on Assault Trinary (2 'Mech Stars/1 Elemental Star) in a few Clusters with an . . . oh, let's call it an Armored Shock Trinary of 2 'Mech Stars and a Combat Vehicle Star. 10 OmniMechs and 10 OmniVehicles, especially if paired together at common speeds, using Clan tech and weapons to the fullest (good, solid designs that aren't as much WTF as canon Clan vehicles) would be a BEAR for another to fight.
Which hasn't really been reflected well in the author's treatment of the Horses. I mean, on paper, fighting a Horse Cluster is simply murder (especially since two tanks are a single point and can therefore gang up on a single opponent . . . just like the 5 Elementals of a point). But it isn't written that way.
I mean, look at the Nike above. Let's say the Horses field a mixed Nova Trinary with two OmniMech/Elemental Novas and a Star of those 6/9/0 light tanks. You're fighting 10 OmniMechs, 50 Elementals (75 if you make the vehicle Star a Nova as well!), and 10 Combat Vehicles . . . with maybe six Stars of your own (if you haven't lowered your bid). Let's say 15 Omnimechs and 75 Elementals.
Can you win? Yeah, it depends a lot on the player's and luck, but those light tanks pack a lot of firepower for their BV (and cost). It all comes down to can your 'Mechs take out twice their number in vehicles before suffering losses of their own? With each of the 'Mechs being the target of two tanks at a time?
And against a dezgra opponent? Those ten tanks, if the Prime Configuration, are boasting ten Large Pulse Lasers and fifty LRM tubes, plus ECM. Not a threat that you can just ignore because of . . . they're only vehicles.
Just some thoughts.
MA
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1. Wolf & Star Adder. This is a story line development and probably the biggest surprise to the Clans but I want to hear what you think. There is a growing "alliance" here and I think both Clans would back a venture to create a front line Clan Tank force. Canon wise Wolf is led by Natasha and Phelan who have seen the effectiveness of Vehicles in the InnerSphere. Plus the Adders do have a healthy respect for these units even though I still question if they see second line or solhama service with them at this time. Also drakensis sort of knows where I am going with Virgilia Truscott which I am trying to incorporate as best as possible into my storyline. Anywho I did plan for both Clans to participate with at least 1 Vehicle line a piece. What do you think?
The Wolves have the largest Occupation Zone to police and right now the biggest likelihood of trying to integrate spheroid bondsmen into their forces. They've probably got a lot of captured tank crews too. Not only could I see them building omni-vehicles, they'd might gladly trade some of their new resources for omnivehicles from other clans. Now what effect might adding a number of vehicle clusters (likely heavily warden) do to the fighting power and political balance of the Wolves? Nothing Natasha or Phelan would object to!
And for the Adders, the chance to break out some of my old Star Adder Symphony notes! The combined arms tactics of the ComGuards would be something that they'd be studying.
2. Cloud Cobra. They do use Vehicles to augment their touman and they are present in large numbers in their second line forces. The big draw back is their resource situation which is poor and their aerospace preference. Would they go with a second line fighter for their remaining line or how about an attack helicopter?? They are allies of the Star Adders...
Given they already have lots of vehicles, I don't think the Cloud Cobras would want to add more to their touman, but they might be willing to make them for export to try to bolster their economy.
3. Diamond Shark. This is a favorite Clan of mine which will be ditching Ian Hawker soon enough but would they participate in this endeavor? They really do not use Vehicles outside of Solhama units and I could easily see them choosing 2 standard BattleMechs to produce. Would it be profitable to designate 1 line for an OmniVehicle??
Given the Wolves and Adders above, I think there's definitely a market and you know the Sharks don't want to left out of any market.
4. Fire Mandrill. This is a tale of many Kindraa with most not using Vehicles outside of Solhama units. Kindraa Payne and Kline do however use Vehicles and with Payne's lack of Elementals I have to wonder do certain combat vehicles still see front line service with conventional infantry? Plus Kindraa Payne does get along with Hell's Horses.... Does their 1 line go BattleMech or OmniVehicle? At best their Khans split on a vote for and against in the Council.
Probably depends whether or not one of the Kindraa can win a Quicksilver slot - the prestige would be enough to win the use of the industry for that, but if they loose they'd go BattleMech instead. Split vote seems likely.
5. Ghost Bear. While they do use Vehicles in Second Line units they are perhaps along with Diamond Shark and Steel Viper the two hardest sells. A front line OmniVehicle? Hmm.... The Bears are a conservative lot plus they may not care for this Hell's Horses led effort. What do you think?
The Bears seem to be still absorbing the consequences of the Invasion and Tukkayid. At a later date I could see them going for an omnivehicle, but probably not at this point.
6. Goliath Scorpion. Oh masterarminas, as our leading Scorpion enthusiast what do you think? Personally I do not see the Scorpions as anything but Mechwarriors and Aerospace Pilots. Outside Solhama units I can not find any Vehicles. So would they back such a proposal? Would they make an OmniVehicle? They certainly think outside the box.
Given how prominent vehicles weren't in the SLDF, unlikely to be interested.
7. Ice Hellion. After the Hellions Fury campaign you have really seen the growth of Flurry units to protect their far flung holdings. A fast OmniVehicle (HoverTank) would help augment their thin force strength quickly and perhaps they would even authorize Second Trails of Position for such positions.
The prospect of swarming someone with a Clan equivalent of Savannah Masters might win the Hellions over - one-seat and blisteringly fast? Sign them up!
8. Steel Viper. Yup they use a large body of trueborn conventional infantry would they want an OmniVehicle though? Outside of Solhama units I really can not find any Vehicles. That being said a quick look at Vehicle fluff has them deploying the Asshur Artillery Spotter, Donar Assault Helicopter, Ku Wheeled Assault Tank, and the Oro Heavy Tank. This is possibly the most mentioned Vehicle Clan in the TRO3060.
It does seem possible they'd be interested in an omnivehicle - they got a good look at vehicles in combat on Tukkayid and might want to turn that back against their enemies.
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Great thoughts guys! Overall I do agree that most Clans would not want to participate at this time (3052) in such a radically new concept. I can easily task BattleMech or Aerospace Fighter production for most. The designs are there. Even if these Clans do not want to produce OmniVehicles would they vote to allow others to include them in Quicksilver? The Crusaders would insist on killing it. Still love to hear from more people on this. ;)
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Outside of the Hell's Horses and bllod Spirits, I don't know of any Clan that makes use of large numbers of vehicles. An Omnivehicle would be out of the question for most of the clans. As for vehicles those are covered in the 306O TRO
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CUrrently we already have the Badger, Bandit and Epona Omnivehicles. two hover tanks and an IFV.... there certianly could be some gaps filled, but I do not think tonnage should be as much of a concern as it is role types. yes Omni tech allows a unit to fulfill a variety of roles, but there is still a primary purpose. arre you a main combatant, a fire support vehicle, are you a command, control, communications outfit, etc etc.
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Of the Clans I'd think the Blood Spirits, Diamond Sharks, (one of the) Fire Mandrills, Hells Horses, Star Adders and Wolves would be likely to vote in favour of an omnivehicle or two. The Burrocks (solely because the Spirits said yes), Coyotes, (the other) Fire Mandrills, Goliath Scorpions, Jade Falcons, Nova Cats and Steel Vipers would likely be strongly opposed (amusingly it cuts across the Warden-Crusader split). 11 Khans vs 13 Khans, with those of the Burrocks, Cloud Cobras, Coyotes (very 'Mech focused), Ghost Bears , Ice Hellions, Snow Ravens and Steel Vipers in the middle ground.
Call it 15 for and 19 against maybe?
So I'd say the Grand Council will probably vote against but not by such a huge margin as to make a Trial of Refusal impossible.
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Thanks for chiming in Abele and JP! You are right Abele, if not for some handwavium here I do not think this motion would come close to passing.
Currently we already have the Badger, Bandit and Epona Omnivehicles.
I really never understood the Badger and Bandit being "Clan" vehicles. Yeah they are Wolf Dragoon vehicles and always have been but name wise they do not fit into Clan Vehicles or do they have another designation that we just do not know about. Were they Wolf prototypes that never went to production? That seems unlikely as they are deployed by the Clans.
Do not forget we also have two other future canon designs from TRO 3067. If we go ahead with Vehicles should we place the Hephaestus Scout Tank (25 tons, Hover, Hell’s Horses, 6 ton pod space) and the Heimdall Ground Monitor Tank (95 tons, Wolf, 21 tons pod space) into production?
Of the Clans I'd think the Blood Spirits, Diamond Sharks, (one of the) Fire Mandrills, Hells Horses, Star Adders and Wolves would be likely to vote in favour of an omnivehicle or two. The Burrocks (solely because the Spirits said yes), Coyotes, (the other) Fire Mandrills, Goliath Scorpions, Jade Falcons, Nova Cats and Steel Vipers would likely be strongly opposed (amusingly it cuts across the Warden-Crusader split). 11 Khans vs 13 Khans, with those of the Burrocks, Cloud Cobras, Coyotes (very 'Mech focused), Ghost Bears , Ice Hellions, Snow Ravens and Steel Vipers in the middle ground.
Call it 15 for and 19 against maybe?
So I'd say the Grand Council will probably vote against but not by such a huge margin as to make a Trial of Refusal impossible.
Mostly I agree with you drakensis. I think Wolf and Diamond Shark are the most out of character. I do not think they would have voted for OmniVehicles if not for alterations. Each would have in character reasons for like the Sharks need to rebuild quickly from Tukayyid and the promising market for Clan vehicles given the new Occupation Zone. Each Clan would dedicate 1 production line for a new design.
Star Adder is somewhat of a change but they would see the possible military applications of OmniVehicles so they are a yes and will dedicate a production line to such a design.
Hell's Horses and Blood Spirit are the unaltered core of armor advocates. I have the Horses down for 2 new OmniVehicles and the Spirits 1 if we get that far.
Ice Hellion I have added to the yes vote for rapid growth in their touman especially after some early successes by the Flurries. They will be participating in the design of a fast OmniVehicle.
Fire Mandrill splits their votes because that is what they do. Seriously there would be political support from one of the Khans but because of Kindraa rivalry no design.
Then you have political gamesmanship from the Cloud Cobras and Snow Ravens. Both Clans owe some favors for support during the Aerospace Trails. Allies such as Blood Spirit (Snow Raven) and Star Adder (Cloud Cobras) also make it possible for both to lend their weight to such an effort. However neither wishes to engage in the design process here although the Ravens would likely facilitate necessary trade. So really Cloud Cobra is the only Clan we differ on.
Dead set against this measure would be Jade Falcon (leading the opposition), Smoke Jaguar (waste of resources), Burrock (hates the Spirits), Coyote (too Mech oriented), Nova Cat (no value in vehicles), and Goliath Scorpion (far too traditional at this time). Fire Mandrill (splits), Ghost Bear (hates the Horses but are not wholesale against Vehicle ideas), and Steel Viper (second line duty at best but they may waver).
That would make the vote 17-17! What happens in the event of a Grand Council tie?
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Would the ilKhan cast the deciding vote? :)
On the Heimdall . . . from TRO:3067.
Clan Wolf created this monster of a tank as a line-holder, not for long operations without constant resupply. Originally designed with a standard fusion engine, it was upgraded with an XL after Khan Phelan Kell's Wolves captured design specs on the new ATM system and decided to incorporate them in their first variant (a possible explanation why Configuration A is more popular within the Wolf military).
Note that it says Clan Wolf, not Clan Wolf-in-Exile. And no initial date. Just a mention that it was upgraded after Khan Kell (hate that, by the way, they should have left it as Ward) gained schematics for the new ATM systems. That leads me to believe that the design was originally for Ulric's Wolves (with a standard fusion engine, not XL), but perhaps not too popular. Maybe even out of production. Since it was rumored that Clan Steel Viper was building this vehicle as well as the WIE, perhaps they had pre-Refusal War/Wolf Split schematics.
MA
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I actually have a vehicle for the Coyote that ties in with another design in the aerospace portion of the competition
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Would the ilKhan cast the deciding vote? :)
ilKhan or Loremaster.
Or they might skip straight to fighting it out.
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The ilKhan castes the deciding vote. If there is no ilKhan, the Loremaster of the Clans castes the deciding vote.
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On the Heimdall . . . from TRO:3067.
Interesting thoughts MA on the Heimdall. Design wise I was thinking all OmniVehicle designs save one would be equipped with Fusion Engines. They are standard enough in Clan space and would keep costs done. Also I was going to see if using one type of engine (the ubiquitous 300 for example) on all or most of these designs would be possible. Would make logistics easier and streamline production. Also as a general note I was thinking 12 ton Clan weapons (Gauss Rifle, Ultra AC-20, LB-20X, 2 ER PPCs, and 2 Large Pulse Lasers) that can be easily swapped could serve as powerful main guns for any tank. Finally I the Hiemdall has too much tonnage tied up in those fixed LB-Xs in my opinion. But hey it is early enough in the design process to change things, right? ;) Do you think the Wolves would go with the big Assault Tank for their OmniVehicle? The Hephaestus Scout Tank also could be used as well.
I actually have a vehicle for the Coyote that ties in with another design in the aerospace portion of the competition
Why didn't you remind me?! ;) You are right and that could tie in with my plans for the Yotes. Despite their new leadership they are awful conservative and too much too soon could cause a revolt that Khan Elam would not desire. However tied closely to the Society who would certainly explore the usefulness of Vehicles I think such a design is still possible. Might they go to the Wolves or the Horses with such a proposal to get it built? Is there another ally that might go for it?
The ilKhan castes the deciding vote. If there is no ilKhan, the Loremaster of the Clans castes the deciding vote.
Thanks guys, I thought that might be the case. Interesting.....
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RE/ Badger and Bandit, these vehicles could have been put into production BEFORE ilKhan Winston's Vehicular standardization decree. that takes care of the name portion.
The Hephaestus was not even proposed until 3061 and shelved two years later only to be resurected when James Cobb became the Horses Khan, albeit with the jump jets removed.
I get the impression that the Heimdall was created as a standard vehicle under clan wolf (and not widely deployed), and then it recieved the omni upgrade under the Exiles.
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RE/ Badger and Bandit, these vehicles could have been put into production BEFORE ilKhan Winston's Vehicular standardization decree. that takes care of the name portion.
I will check the dates on that cause it ain't bad.
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According to Era Digest Golden Century, both the Badger and Bandit C's were avalaibe after 2875, whether or not Star Leauge tech versions were built priot to that is not outlined anywhere.
the big difference is the 5 ton infantry bay, the built in CASE and in the case of the Badger Ferro Fibrous Armor
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You could be right JP and this does bring up a very interesting history of OmniVehicles.
2854 - The first OmniMech, the Coyotl, is deployed
2873 - Victoria Ward is elected ilKhan and during her reign enacts the Uniform Designation Protocols for Vehicles and Fighters
So there is almost 20 years were both the Badger and the Bandit could be developed. It could be the OmniMech and the changing face of warfare during the Golden Century made such Vehicles obsolete. By the time the Wolf Dragoons are being assembled (which makes a case that Clan Wolf first developed them) they are shipped out. Wonder if anyone could have discovered the secret of OmniTechnology from these?
However, the Epona fluff makes it clear that it is the only OmniVehicle ever deployed by the Clans.
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However, the Epona fluff makes it clear that it is the only OmniVehicle ever deployed by the Clans.
And it was developed by one of the two Clans that make a great use of vehicles, the Hell's Horses, and thusly, makes complete sense that it was built. The only other OmniVehicle I could see being absolutely necessary would a designated BA carrier, which the Badger/Bandit already fill.
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You could be right JP and this does bring up a very interesting history of OmniVehicles.
2854 - The first OmniMech, the Coyotl, is deployed
2873 - Victoria Ward is elected ilKhan and during her reign enacts the Uniform Designation Protocols for Vehicles and Fighters
So there is almost 20 years were both the Badger and the Bandit could be developed. It could be the OmniMech and the changing face of warfare during the Golden Century made such Vehicles obsolete. By the time the Wolf Dragoons are being assembled (which makes a case that Clan Wolf first developed them) they are shipped out. Wonder if anyone could have discovered the secret of OmniTechnology from these?
However, the Epona fluff makes it clear that it is the only OmniVehicle ever deployed by the Clans.
Correction: Currently deployed and developed.
it could be that the Omni capabilities of the Badger and Bandit were merely copies of the Mercury's modular compnonents, but the record sheets to indicate that the badger and bandit Cs are omnivehicles, and they did show up, albeit rarely in earlier Random Assignment tables among other clans. the Wolf's Dragoons Sourcebook also explicitly states that the badger and bandit vehicles house modular components proprietary to the dragoons, though listed as mere variants, they were pathfinders to the omnivehicle concept for the inner sphere, and indeed could be the first omnivehicles ever.
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So there is almost 20 years were both the Badger and the Bandit could be developed. It could be the OmniMech and the changing face of warfare during the Golden Century made such Vehicles obsolete. By the time the Wolf Dragoons are being assembled (which makes a case that Clan Wolf first developed them) they are shipped out. Wonder if anyone could have discovered the secret of OmniTechnology from these?
It makes sense. Just add the deployment of Elementals as the core infantry of the Clans (and the obvious bias towards limited warfare and the BattleMech).
However, I don't buy the Clan Wolf development thing as the fluff states that it was an old Clan design. So the Wolf's Dragoons just had to look in the overall database to find it.
It is not because they are Wolf's Dragoons that they are from Clan Wolf.
And the fluff from both the Badger and the Bandit states that there are Clan variants that served as the basis of the different Configurations.
I guess there was a Clan Scientist in the Wolf's Dragoons that tried this new idea.
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TRO 3058 Update also Explicitly states that the Bandit C IS an Omnivehicle (and so is the Badger by extension)
also remember that the development of the omnimech did not have the automatic transport of Battle Armor at first, that was a capability added later and retrofitted to older designs. so vehicular transport of elementals WAS important.
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Well I had a big long post about this Saturday morning before we experienced some forum issues. All seems well now so let me try one more time.
JP is right again. I went through the Epona fluff and the first since says "the only Clan to manufacture and deploy the Epona. Other Clans consider the pod technology wasted on conventional vehicles..". So there is no direct contradiction as I originally thought.
Apparently the Bandit and the Badger were early Omnitech attempts that were abandoned by the Clans. Ice Hellion mentioned the Elemental and I think that is an another important reason why these Vehicles disappeared.
My contention in the rapid tech development that was the Golden Century the OmniVehicle was a natural follow up to the OmniMech which was first fielded in 2854. The Badger and the Bandit (likely the first and most successful) were quickly developed as OmniVehicles since they did not suffer from complex problems like gyroscope issues involved with BattleMechs or higher tech Aerospace Fighters.
I will let Blood Spirit Vehicle Orthodoxy (Field Manual Crusader Clans pg 25-26) speak for itself next.
According to the doctrine of military deployment as set forth by Nicholas Kerensky, one Cluster equals five Trinaries-three 'Mech, one vehicle and one infantry. Aerospace forces were not integrated directly into the units, but were kept separate, to be attached to other forces when needed. Clan Blood Spirit has taken this organizational structure not as a mere suggestion, but as a mandate for all time.
Following the death of Nicholas, and moving into the Golden Century, fascination with the BattleMech led to a decline in vehicle use among most other Clans. When Clan Coyote introduced the OmniMech, this fascination became an obsession for most Clan warriors. Though MechWarriors have generally felt their machines superior to armored units since the invention of BattleMechs in 2439, the Clan caste system, combined with the new OmniMech, led to a sharp devaluation of vehicles in almost every Clan. Relegated to defensive roles, the vehicle was seen as "the poor man's machine." Honor, for a vehicle crew, did not exist. In the first few decades following the invention of the OmniMech, most Clans began to remove their vehicles from frontline and even many second-line units, replacing them with aerospace fighters. Though each Clan still fielded small amounts of armor, the Clans as a whole began refusing to admit that such forces even existed
While this fluff indicates the OmniMech as the main culprit lets not forget the innovation of the Clan Elemental by the Wolves in 2868. OmniVehicles would offer a certain tactical advantage but that would be negated by their fragility and high cost especially when compared to the more durable Mech/Fighter along with the sudden protection and mobility given to infantry thanks to practical Battlearmor. Despite some institutional resistance to organizational reforms (I do believe more traditional Clans would be slow to change Kerensky's Unit Structure) the effective performance of new units would force most to change until only the Spirits and the Horses are left. There is also the limited warfare angle to cover which would frown on OmniVehicles. It favors individual honor (not for vehicle crews) over the total war attitude of just win damn it. As a result when ilKhan Victoria Ward enacts the Uniform Designation Protocols in 2883 (specific date from the Chaeronea fluff) the Badger and Bandit are likely on their way out.
Only to be dusted off by the Wolf Dragoons. I still wonder if Kerlin Ward did not include them to give the InnerSphere a chance to glean Omnitech. :o
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I am like Rush Limbaugh dude. Don't ever doubt me!
*please note I am stealing a catch phrase and JPArbiter and Arbitration Studios do not Endorse Rush Limbaugh or EIB*
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Mega dittos El Arbite ???
So with the ilKhan casting the deciding vote in favor of this resolution it is immediately challenged by the Jade Falcons who face even odds in a Trail. Championing the Grand Council in this matter will be the Hell's Horses. Cluster vs Cluster is the size. Any thoughts as to the where and what happens??
Oh and btw Jade Falcon is super pissed. Losing a string of political decisions in addition to their recent aerospace defeat will make them a determined foe. Even if they disrespect vehicles.
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So with the ilKhan casting the deciding vote in favor of this resolution it is immediately challenged by the Jade Falcons who face even odds in a Trail. Championing the Grand Council in this matter will be the Hell's Horses. Cluster vs Cluster is the size. Any thoughts as to the where and what happens??
It's going to have to be back in the Homeworlds since the Hells Horses won't have Clusters in the Inner Sphere. Eden seems likely, having sizeable enclaves of both Clans.
Under the circumstances, the Hells Horses will want to include vehicles in their bid. They likely have the advantage of bringing a top-notch cluster to bear whereas the Jade Falcon's best units are in the Inner Sphere. Their standard Cluster would be 3 mixed Mech/Elemental Trinaries, 1 Aerospace Trinary and 1 Vehicle/Conventional Infantry Supernova.
If the Jade Falcons have to employ a secondline cluster they're likely to be outnumbered with 50-60 points compared to the 75+ of the Hells Horses. On the other hand, even secondline clusters in the Jade Falcon touman frequently use equipment other clans use as frontline - so they'll likely have a good array of Summoner and Kit Fox omnimechs and relatively few warriors will have to use mere BattleMechs.
Oh and btw Jade Falcon is super pissed. Losing a string of political decisions in addition to their recent aerospace defeat will make them a determined foe. Even if they disrespect vehicles.
A plan with no drawbacks in the eyes of Ulric Kerensky!
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Okay folks how does this read for the Trail?
Trail of Refusal
The Jade Falcons swiftly moved to challenge the results of this narrow Grand Council decision. Khan Crichell directed his finest homeworld cluster, the 1st Falcon Hussars (Tokasha Hussars) of Sigma Galaxy, to crush “the champions of follyâ€. Previous reversals during the Quicksilver Trails along with their contempt for Conventional Vehicles bought the Falcons to full furor. The situation was further aggravated by the frustration felt by the Hussars at being locked out of the invasion. Former saKhan Timur Malthus would lead the assault personally vowing to destroy “the advocates of antiquity.â€
Winning the honor of representing “the will of the Clans†was Clan Hell’s Horses who quickly choose the 11th Mechanized Cavalry (Blackhorse Cluster) of Alpha Galaxy to represent them. The 11th slightly outnumbered the Falcon Cluster because of its composition which included Vehicles. The numeric superiority of the Horse Supernovas was not given much thought before the battle because of their conventional nature. Feeling slighted during the Grand Council debate also motivated Khan Malavai Fletcher to take operational command of the Trail.
The Horses set the stage by choosing the Eastern Purgatory Peninsula on Eden to serve as the battle site. With both Clans maintaining sizable enclaves on planet the move would help expedite the Trail. The open plains and nearby water front would serve the Horses well in the mêlée to come. Learning that their Falcon opponents would be the “Tokasha†Hussars spurred on the Horses who longed to avenge their loss. The fierce battle that was soon joined was overseen by the Grand Council and the ilKhan’s new Unified Command Keshiks.
As the battle raged for aerospace superiority overhead the Horses deployed their Epona Hover Tanks to goad the Falcons. As many suspected the 1st Hussars went out of their way to try and destroy these Combat OmniVehicles. Their rapid hit and run strikes aided by the terrain soon began to frustrate the Falcons who could not catch all of the Eponas. Chasing them to the nearby shore line the Falcon OmniMechs were swarmed over by Khan Fletcher’s Elementals who suddenly emerged from beneath the waves. Along what is now called Bloody Beach both forces joined in full combat.
While the ground contest favored the Horses the Falcons managed to seize control of the skies. Rather than admit defeat Timur Malthus called in his fighters to make repeated strafing runs. This of course opened a grand melee and despite calls to end the trail the Horses pressed on refusing help. Khan Fletcher knew that if the Council forces came to their aid critics would say it was a false victory for the OmniVehicle. Ultimately this culminated in carnage for the combatants on both sides. While the Horses destroyed every last Falcon unit engaged in the Trail it was a costly victory.
Both commanders were killed in the final moments of the battle when Fletcher tore Malthus from his cockpit only to be cut down soon after. The 1st Falcon Hussars were utterly destroyed and were stricken from the Touman by Khan Crichell for their utter failure. The Horses faired little better taking massive causalities to their finest cluster which will take time to rebuild. This destruction was most evident among their Combat Vehicles who had taken the fully fury of the Falcons. Only a single Epona and a handful of other Horse Vehicles survived the conflict intact.
The losses endured by the Horses will be somewhat offset by the isorla taken following this brutal Trail and new OmniVehicle production now endorsed by the Quicksilver Program. It is interesting to note the similarity of the Horses tactics to their first military campaign in the liberation of the Pentagon. Many have pointed the hallmarks of the Peninsula Conflict on Eden where the Clan drew out their Pentagon adversaries in much the same fashion. While BattleMechs had served as the bait during Operation Klondike the results were indeed the same.
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Clan Involvement
The Grand Council has authorized the creation of 7 new Modular Combat Vehicles. This was based on individual Clans petitioning for direct involvement in manufacturing these OmniVehicles. This includes Hell’s Horses (2), Blood Spirit (1), Star Adder (1), Ice Hellion (1), Wolf (1), and Diamond Shark (1).
Do not forget about the rest of the Clans. Two Fire Mandrill Kindraa (Payne and Kline) both would like to gain access to this production and will participate in development. The other Kindraa will likely remain apathetic to the whole project.
Coyote even though their warriors will not use the OmniVehicles as of yet the leadership and scientists of the Clan are interested in their development. They will assist in research introducing ideas like Cross Modularity which calls for Omni designs [Mech, Fighter, & Vehicle] at a certain weight class using common parts (Engines, Weapons, etc.). The idea was forwarded by Abele forwarded with Project Manitou although drakensis may have stumbled across a 50 ton duplication which exists already (Huntsman and Turk).
While Steel Viper and Ghost Bear forwarded a compromise proposal (the IIC Vehicle Program) it was largely ignored. They along with Cloud Cobra, Goliath Scorpion, Nova Cat, and Snow Raven have little interest in the OmniVehicle project. I could see an observer or some kind of peripheral involvement at best but apathy is the rule of the day here.
Burrock, Jade Falcon, Smoke Jaguar they all hate this whole concept and will go out of their way to wreck it if possible
Design Thoughts
Would the Clans go back to SLDF designs to draw inspiration? How about using the InnerSphere as an example? Certainly constructing an OmniVehicle is easy but the Clans don’t really do it that much.
Clans normally do not use Targeting Computers (see Athena), Modularization (see Epona), or Extra Light Engines (almost all Clan vehicles are in fact Fusion powered) on their vehicles.
How about using a 300 XL Engine as a constant throughout these designs? My first instinct is to go with standard Fusion Engines for all but one (Clan Main Battle Tank). Of course I like this idea but it may prove too radical for some Clans like Blood Spirit.
12 ton Clan weapons that can be easily swapped and serve as powerful main guns for any tank (Gauss Rifle, Ultra Autocannon/20, LB-X 20, and Arrow IV System)
10 ton Clan weapons could prove to be even more ideal than larger gun thanks to turret design rules, longer ranges, and increased ammo loads (LB 10-X AC, Ultra AC/10)
The heat curve and use of Fusion Power Plants it is also possible to mount a large energy weapon (Large Pulse Laser or ER Large Laser with 2 heat sinks) on almost every design
Since we only have 7 OmniVehicle designs why not try to fill out missing tonnage increments? My research shows this would cover 6 mass categories (45 tons, 55 tons, 70 tons, 80 tons, 90 tons, 95 tons). This would serve to augment existing Clan designs even though they are not modular in nature.
Clan Vehicle Notes (17 from TRO3060)
- Shamash Recon Vehicle (11 tons) jealously guarded by Clan Blood Spirit
- Asshur Artillery Spotter (20 tons) deployed by both the Steel Vipers and Ghost Bears in the InnerSphere
- Odin Scout Tank (20 tons) led the Jade Falcons to relegate all vehicles to either training or support roles
- Donar Assault Helicopter (21 tons) is used in a variety of different roles by different Clans. Hell’s Horses use it as a cavalry helicopter for anti-armor and fire support missions. Steel Viper uses it in second line clusters as a mobile fire support platform for infantry. Goliath Scorpion and Ice Hellion use it as a scout.
- Mithras Light Tank (25 tons) is used by all Clans but Kindraa Kline of the Fire Mandrill has the highest concentration
- Anhur Transport (30 tons) is assigned combat duties as needed by Fire Mandrill, Goliath Scorpion, Ice Hellion, and Snow Raven. Only the Blood Spirits, Hell’s Horses, and Star Adder permanently assign the vehicle to combat units as infantry support.
- Indra Infantry Transport (35 tons) was notoriously used on Turtle Bay by the Smoke Jaguar Clan
- Svantovit Infantry Fighting Vehicle (35 tons) used by every Clan with the Blood Spirit and Hell’s Horses deploying the most while Star Adder and Jade Falcon deploy the least
- Zorya Light Tank (35 tons) is largely deployed by the Blood Spirits and Cloud Cobras
- Ares Medium Tank (40 tons) is most commonly found in the ranks of Coyote and Wolf
- Hachiman Fire Support Tank (50 tons) is used by Blood Spirit, Hell’s Horses and Star Adder in front line roles
- Ku Wheeled Assault Tank (50 tons) was best known for the Steel Viper defense of Arcadia against the Ghost Bears
- Oro Heavy Tank (60 tons) is used by Steel Viper as AA against the Snow Ravens
- Ishtar Heavy Fire Support Tank (65 tons) is primarily manufactured by Hell’s Horses and Star Adder although Nova Cat and the rest of the Clans also use it as well
- Athena Combat Vehicle (75 tons) appears in almost every front line Cluster and Galaxy in Clan Hell’s Horses
- Huitzilopochtli Assault Tank (85 tons) is one of the few vehicles Jade Falcon consider support units which confers a certain amount of respect
- Mars Assault Tank (100 tons) used by all Clans in active garrison Clusters with Hell’s Horses maintain near constant production
Clan OmniVehicles
Past Production
Badger Tracked Transport (30 tons, Tracked, Wolf, tons of pod space) TRO3058U
Bandit Combat Hovercraft (50 tons, Hover, Wolf, Not OMNI?) TRO3058U
Current Production
Epona Pursuit Tank (50 tons, Hover, Hell’s Horses, 17 tons of pod space) TRO3060
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Feeling slightly _____? during the Grand Council debate also motivated Khan Malavai Fletcher to take operational command of the Trail.
Looks good except for the missing word here.
Filling the tonnage gaps means there'd to be little to no adaption of existing production of vehicles into omnivehicles, although tapping old SLDF chassis (or salvage from Inner Sphere battlefields) would be possible. It's still going to slow production.
Another category for pod-space I've used repeatedly for omnivehicles is 17 tons (admittedly for the IS): enough for 15 tons of weapons and 2 of ammo. Given clan missile systems, something like that would easily fill the role of the traditional LRM Carrier and SRM carrier on a much smaller chassis.
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Looks good except for the missing word here.
:-[ Changed slightly to slighted. I am sure there are more mistakes but I hope I conveyed that the Falcons were outmaneuvered by the Horses. Sure they would scream "dishonorable" or ambush and go on about if this was a stand up fight as it should be. Others will just roll there eyes and mumble tactics....
Filling the tonnage gaps means there'd to be little to no adaption of existing production of vehicles into omnivehicles, although tapping old SLDF chassis (or salvage from Inner Sphere battlefields) would be possible. It's still going to slow production.
Another category for pod-space I've used repeatedly for OmniVehicles is 17 tons (admittedly for the IS): enough for 15 tons of weapons and 2 of ammo. Given clan missile systems, something like that would easily fill the role of the traditional LRM Carrier and SRM carrier on a much smaller chassis.
Making OmniVehicles is likely easier than the more complex 'Mechs and Fighters. Although I do agree production would be slower just because Vehicle Designer is likely a non existent sub caste in Clan society if you get my drift.
Also the six missing tonnages are heavier than normal for the Clans with Vehicles who trend lighter but could filling these gaps make these heavier OmniVehicles more survivable?
Interesting design tactic drak.
How about a design strategy - how should the Clans set up this new OmniArmor Core?
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I probably wouldn't worry too much about tonnage . . . instead, perhaps each competition can be assigned a combat role. I.e., scout, battle tank, infantry carrier, etc., etc., etc.
I mean, we have wheeled, tracked, hover, and VTOL . . . so potentially four OmniVehicles for each category "role" we determine.
Now, what could some of the roles be?
1. Scout/recon. Fast moving, with good sensors (i.e., Active Probe), fairly light weapons and armor. Needs to be fairly inexpensive.
2. Cavalry Striker. Much like the scout/recon vehicle, but with a pure combat role as a flanker, harasser, and general "hell-raiser". Fast, with a good amount of weapons; light to moderate armor.
3. Main Battle. A vehicle that has one true purpose in life: to attack. Moderate speed, heavy firepower, moderate to heavy armor protection. Not too slow (2/3's and 3/5's need not apply), but something that can keep up with the majority of the Touman on the offensive.
4. Tank Destroyer/Assault Gunner/Defender of the Righteous ( :) ). A slower version of the Main Battle above, intended for primarily defensive operations within a garrison unit.
5. Combat Support. Fills specific roles within the Touman (i.e., Air Defense, Heavy Missile Support, Combat Engineers (??), Bridgelayer (???), etc.). Now, this one is interesting, because speed doesn't matter as much here . . . and since we are talking about an OmniVehicle, we might use the same basic chassis for any required combat support need!
6. Transport and Infantry/Elemental Support. As it says on the tin. Primary task is to deploy conventional infantry or elementals and support them in combat.
Can you think of any others?
Anyway, that is my thoughts.
MA
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I like it MA. Although I must say that 2 or 3 pre-existing OmniVehicles do exist. The Epona Pursuit Tank is already in production and I was thinking of putting the Badger Tracked Transport back into limited production. The Bandit Combat Hovercraft sounds like another possibility but I am not sure.
Modeling this after my old Shattered Dawn Vehicle Challenges I will go mostly for the creation of a Tank Corps.
1. Main Battle Tank. The one role and OmniVehicle I am sure the Clans must have in these contests. I was thinking it should be tracked. Likely a Heavy Vehicle say around 70 tons. Was thinking Hell's Horses would be the manufacturer and that it might carry an XL Engine. It would be the only Combat Vehicle to be so equipped. Very controversial and expensive.
2. Heavy Tank. Designed by the Blood Spirits it is much like the MBT except it is powered by a standard Fusion Engine. Tracked. Perhaps 60 tons. Cheaper, far less controversial and cheaper. Compared to the extravagance of the MBT this vehicle may be the key to the acceptance or failure of OmniVehicles.
3. Assault Tank. In between the MBT and the HAT this Tracked 80 tonner would combine 3/5 speed with impressive firepower.
4. Heavy Assault Tank. Say 90 or 95 tons. This tracked behemoth could be Wolves Heimdall and is likely slow (2/3) but armed to the teeth with long range weaponry.
5. Strike Tank. The lightest tracked tank weigh in at about 50 or so tons much like your Nike proposal MA.
6. Helicopter Gunship. Possibly the Ice Hellion entry for service in the Flurry units and quite possibly line units. Fast well armed for its size, max 30 tons of course it is a VTOL. Configuration or two may carry Elementals.
I must confess that a combat support Omni is intriguing but ultimately not front line enough for this initial series. These 7 OmniVehicles while authorized will be under intense scrutiny and must prove successful in combat.
How about a Submarine too? That would be a very Diamond Shark proposal.
I probably go heavier because of my desire to maximize pod space - meaning lighter vehicles could be too limited.
Thoughts??
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Role sounds sensible although some roles are inherently going to be available as a result of Omni-Technology with a tank becoming a tank destroyer, artillery piece or whatever, with a change to the payload.
Weight would be a factor, certainly, but more as a product of the fixed aspects like speed, armour and cost
Given the logistics involved, I think the Clans would be firmly in favour of fusion engines over ICE.
The traditional vehicle chassis types in BT seem to be:
Scout - speed and to a lesser extent electronics matter, firepower and protection really don't. Could be VTOL, Hover or even other motive types.
Light Tank - primarily this fills the role of something cheap that can be deployed in large numbers. I'm not sure any Clan would bother with this.
Fast Attack Tank - fast and hard-hitting, almost always hover. Armour is sacrificed The Epona basically has this covered.
Medium Tank - a balance between speed, firepower and armour. These are typically the backbone of a large armoured force, around the top of the medium and bottom of the heavy weight bracket.
Main Battle Tank - intended to slug it out with battlemechs, these compare well in firepower and protection but have to trade off speed to maintain that parity. Usually operate at the upper end of heavy or the lower end of assault tonnage. Usually tracked but not always.
Assault Tank - very heavily armed and armoured, these are used to assault or guard fixed locations and therefore need very little speed. They tend to turn into pill-boxes quite easily. Tracks are mandatory for survivability.
Weapon Carriers - neither fast nor well protected, these are all about throwing the maximum amount of firepower down-range. Tend to be larger for the needed tonnage.
(Conveniently there are 7 of them although if I missed something dropping light tanks is a no brainer - not very clan-like! Also weapon carriers could be divided into light and heavy categories)
Some of your categories appear here or are gelled together. I think you're being a bit too specific about tonnages - open that up to allow designers scope for different speeds and tonnages to meet the requirements.
I wouldn't suggest a submarine or surface naval vessel. It's not flexible enough for the Clans and they're hard to move between planets.
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I will try to open up the tonnages as much as possible drak. ;)
Fusion Engines are the order of the day. Clan tech basis even shows on their standard Vehicles and the Omni program is a step up. ICE does not have a chance here at all.
Love the Universal Weapons Carrier idea. Lets roll out something that could do the job of the SRM/LRM/AC Carrier all in one. Can you fit it with Lasers or PPCs? How about Gauss Rifles? Or even Arrow IV Systems? I would place that into the heavy weight category. Speed isn't a priority. (3/5?) Possibly Diamond Shark as the manufacturer. Wonder if this would fit the Combat Support role that MA first forwarded. Could certainly serve as air defense, fire support, and artillery platform. Then you can sneak a Combat Engineer Configuration in - say with a Bridgelayer. I like it a lot. That is in.
That will join the Main Battle Tank (XL Engine) and the Heavy Tank (Fusion Engine) as three locks thus far. I was thinking of both as different flavors on the same theme. The MBT is the big deal of this contest with Hell's Horses, Wolf, Star Adder, and Ice Hellion all agreeing on the use of an XL Engine to match 'Mech speed (4/6 or 5/8) as well as firepower and armor. The Blood Spirit with their Fire Mandrill allies favoring a lower tech and weight approach to the MBT. Although I suppose it is possible we could roll that idea into the Strike Tank.
The Assault Tank and Strike Tank (Medium Tracked) will like be number four and five.
While Tracked Tanks are a large part of this effort (possibly making up 4 of 7 designs) we should have at least one Wheeled, one Hover, and one VTOL. For the Wheeled Vehicle I am thinking some kind of Urban Assault bad ass that can help maintain order in the Occupation Zone. I still like the Helicopter Gunship idea for the VTOL.
How about something like the Marechal Light Tanks that we did for BTSD Fanbook 3 - Mercenary Guild. Three different varied motive systems (Hover, Wheeled, Tracked) in a single design with the same components, power plant, electronics, armor, and this case pod space (weaponry). Could that work here??
The Submarine was just a wild idea. Riffing here bud. Throw it against the wall and see if it sticks.
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The idea of sharing components for wheeled, tracked and light sounds like it has potential.
Being too specific about motive types in general may risk stifling creativity. Leave options open.
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Gonna try drak! ;)
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Remember too the Clan focus on the Warrior above all. Personally, I think that the greatest enthusiasm would come from vehicles of 15 tons or less (1 crewman), or 16-30 tons (2 crewmen, one of which can be [as with my Nike concept] a Technician . . . meaning there is no 'sharing of glory' for the lone Warrior). Maybe even 31-45 tons (3 crew, which if all weapons are concentrated in a turret or the same arc MIGHT be able to get by with a single Warrior and two Techs).
That would push tonnages down, but might also make vehicles more appealing to those Clanners who lean Conservative (not the hard-liners, of course).
MA
EDIT: What I really wish the PTB would introduce would be some form of automation for vehicles designed to reduce necessary manpower. Seven man crews for a 95- or 100-ton tank? Five for a 61-75 ton tank? When we have actual vehicles in that weight range that have crews of 3-4 men . . . TODAY! I mean, I'd pay a half-ton of equipment tonnage to reduce the needed crew (per man). And it really would make sense for the Clans to have invented such, but NO. We can't have nice things. :(
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Being fair, most of our vehicles in that weight range don't have the sizeable variety of equipment used on some BT assaultweight vehicles.
Let's look at the Behemoth tank for example. There would be a gunner for the turret (controlling the autocannon and SRM launchers), a gunner for the forward mounted weapons (LRMs, SRMs and machineguns), one or two gunners for the left and right weapons (SRMs and machineguns). Some of them may double as radio-operators and engineer/loaders (yes, I'm sure weapon loading is automated but when it goes wrong you need someone near enough to fix it - preferably without climbing outside). So four gunners, a driver and commander (might overlap with one or more gunner, might not).
Drawing on RL tanks, take a look at the M3 Lee from WWII. 27 tons and needed a crew of 7 to crew a tank with two autocannon and three or four machineguns. Granted much better automation but that still suggests that practical use of a tank festoned with up to a dozen weapon systems takes a number of crew.
I'll grant though, the Clans would probably much prefer one and two man crew tanks.
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One does wonder why a Vehicle Cockpit was never developed especially by the Clans. You would figure that the highly Orthodox among them like Blood Spirit who worshiped Kerensky's military organization attempted such a feat. Certainly the Hell's Horses would also be motivated to go further and create a 'Tanker' phenotype.
If I was riffing about the failed development of said Vehicle Cockpit it would probably go like this. Vehicles are easily damaged perhaps such sophistication makes them even more vulnerable and improvements would make them more costly. This extra automation would probably strike the Blood Spirit bean counters (already poor) as an unnecessary extravagance.
Plus there is the whole Mech focus thing.
Oh and MA I have not forgotten your original point about Vehicle size. I think if you look at existing Clan Vehicles they go smaller to specifically use less people. The big problem with that here is pod space. We are making OmniVehicles so you want to maximize pod space. Making a 15 ton Hovercraft that a single warrior can fly around in is cool but how much pod space are we talking?
However, the Clans can no look up the ass end of the universe and realize "Hey we are ridiculously outnumbered!" We could really maximize our tiny force this way nicely. Such investment may be extremely prudent in conquering the InnerSphere or remaining alive as a distinct martial culture.
This (Vehicle Cockpit) is one of the three potential Vehicle Level 3 things I would like to see the Clans research along with a higher tech version of the Variable Motive System (swapping out drive trains in an Omni type fashion would add immensely to the usefulness of Vehicles) and Cross Modularity (interchangeable components on Mechs/Fighters/Vehicles to simplify logistics and cut costs).
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A 1-man 15-ton hovercraft moving at 10/15 with three tons of ferro-fibrous armor (15 front/15 right/15 left/12 rear) would have 5.0 tons remaining for pod-space. Less than a 20-ton Fire Moth, I'll grant you, but with a lot more armor and the same base speed. And only 1.5 fewer tons pod-space. Drop the armor to 1.5 tons (7 points per facing) and that 15-ton vehicle would have the same 6.5 tons pod-space (33.3% pod-space for 5 tons and 43.33% pod-space for 6.5 tons, respectively) as the Fire Moth.
An 8/12 15-ton VTOL with 2 tons of ferro-fibrous (10 front/10 right/10 left/5 rear/2 rotor) would have 8.0 tons of pod-space! Half a ton less than a 40-ton Viper and moving at the same speed (albeit with far lighter armor!!). Sure, the VTOL is much more vulnerable, but also a heck of a lot cheaper!
An 8/12 15-ton wheeled vehicle with 2 tons of FF (10/10/10/7) would have 6.0 tons of pod-space.
Tracked are the only real losers here, dropping to a 7/11 movement profile, keeping that 2.0 tons of armor, and having just 5.0 tons of pod-space.
For 30-tonners (with a single Warrior gunner/commander and a Tech driver/engineer), it looks like this:
Hover: 8/12 with 3.0 tons armor (15 front/10 right/10 left/15 turret/7 rear) with 13.5 tons of pod-space!! (Minus the mass of the turret.)
VTOL: 10/15 with 3.0 tons armor (15/7/7/2 rotor) with 11.5 tons of pod-space!
Wheeled: 7/11 with 2.5 tons armor (10/10/10/10/7) with 11.5 tons of pod-space! (Minus the mass of the turret.)
Tracked: 7/11 with 2.5 tons armor (10/10/10/10/7) with 9.5 tons of pod-space! (Minus the mass of the turret.)
That is plenty of pod-space for such a light and inexpensive combat unit, especially one moving at those speeds! In my opinion.
MA
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You've almost convinced me to launch a Proto-Vehicle effort. :D These ultralights would have applications certainly but I really did not envision getting this low on the weight scale. That being said they do have certain capabilities that are interesting. Especially if you tie in the easy energy swap (Fusion Engine and 6 tons of space necessary) of an ER Large Laser (+2 Heat Sinks) and the Large Pulse Laser.
Really everything except the Tracked vehicles are pretty practical when you think about it. This proposal would eat up three production slots on extremely light Vehicles when I apply it to Quicksilver. They would be cheap and easy to produce.
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And don't forget, Tak, these are OmniVehicles. That means they can carry Elementals on their outer surfaces at NO cost in tonnage or space. Which, as on the canon Hellbringer would actually improve their armor if hit on their 'attack run to the target'. :)
And since two vehicles are part of a single point, a vehicle Star could carry and deploy two Stars of Elementals as part of a Trinary. Fifty Elementals, supported by ten of these fast 'ultra-light' vehicles is something NO ONE can ignore without getting slapped around rather violently.
MA
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This is really an interesting development here MA. If we say that Clan (Blood Spirit and Ice Hellion) researchers were intrigued by the possibilities offered by Ultralight Vehicles when developing ideas for Quicksilver OmniVehicles then we could certainly develop a whole new line of thinking.
Blood Spirit is looking for cheap solutions in the first place and is looking for viable Combat Vehicles. Ice Hellion brings their Flurry concept and PackZell mentality to the table. Plus the Clans gotta love the idea of one Warrior per vehicle. Now if the Smoke Jaguars glean some stuff from early ProtoMech research (which I hate the concept anyway and would love to eliminate in this alternate) this concept is far more practical.
Now can you organize these 15 ton and lighter Ultralights like ProtoMechs? I know Ice Hellion would love to try but even if you go with the Orthodox approach offered by Blood Spirit (is that 2 Vehicles per point still?) you still have a nasty concept.
I am not sure that Elementals could be carried so effortlessly by these Ultralights but I will consider it. Very nice possibilities here folks.
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You want nasty? Clan conventional are 25 troopers to a point; five points to a Star (125 troops). A two-ton bay will hold up to fourteen conventional infantry. So, for a Star of 10 vehicles, each with a two-ton bay, you've got enough room for a Star of conventional infantry. And those same 15-ton vehicles can each carry a point of Elementals (5 per), without slowing down.
Ten 15-ton VTOLs, 50 Elementals, and 125 conventional infantry. With each VTOL moving at 8/12 and having six tons of pod-space. Enough for a Large Pulse Laser, or an ER Large Laser plus two heat sinks, or two ER Medium Lasers and three LRM-5s with a ton of ammo, or . . . you get the idea.
What do you shoot at? The VTOLs? Elementals clinging to the outside serve as ablative armor and these things move fast enough to be right on top of you very quickly. The conventional infantry? Which can pack a serious punch, even if they are slow-moving and fragile. The Elementals? That leaves the grunts and VTOLs free to wreck your day!
Or . . .
The 15-ton hover scout might just replace the Fire Moth as a rapid Elemental deployment platform. 6.5 tons of pod-space ain't nothing to sneeze at; you could mount twin ER Medium Lasers, an SRM-6 with a ton of ammo, and an LRM-5 with a ton of ammo! Or twin Medium Pulse Lasers, and an SRM-6 with a ton of ammo! Or . . . you get the idea. While carrying two Stars of Elementals and probably costing a quarter the amount of a Star of Elemental supported Fire Moths.
MA
-
Heck the more I think about these Clan Ultralights the more I like them. If you look at the Shamash Reconnaissance Vehicle (11 tons) it pretty much lays out the entire concept. Plus in comparison to ProtoMechs these Ultralights are far more maneuverable, better protected and well armed - that does not even mention the fact they could be modularized (OmniVehicles). No fancy tech problems to really overcome and as such I have to assume they are even cheaper then ProtoMechs. Piloted by a single warrior these nasty little gnats would certainly be more then just a pest on the battlefield.
In regards to our Quicksilver Combat Vehicles I am thinking they might be too small. Thanks to their tiny size and the limited resources needed to construct them these mighty midgets require smaller production facilities akin to Elementals not Mechs, Fighters or Vehicles. Therefore they probably will not be considered for primary manufacturing concerns affected in the Quicksilver Program.
Should I establish a 20 ton floor and start a new effort to develop these Ultralights in another project?
-
A 20-ton floor? I wouldn't.
As to the Shamash . . . it was hobbled by the designers from the beginning. Look at what it could have been:
Shamash (AISHB)
Mass: 15 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Motive Type: Hovercraft
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-C
Production Year: 0
Cost: 638,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 900
Power Plant: 95 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 129.6 km/h
Flanking Speed: 194.4 km/h
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 ER Medium Lasers
1 SRM-6
Manufacturer:
Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 8 points 1.50
Engine: Fusion Engine 95 4.50
Cruise MP: 12
Flank MP: 18
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Control Equipment: 1.00
Lift Equipment: 1.50
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 38 2.00
Armor
Factor
Front 10
Left/Right 10/10
Rear 8
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Spaces Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 ER Medium Lasers FR 10 2 2.00
SRM-6 FR 4 1 1.50
@SRM-6 (15) BD - 0 1.00
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 1 Points: 9
12 3 3 0 0 1 0 Structure: 0
Special Abilities: CASE
Four tons heavier, a trifle slower (12/18 vs. 13/20), same armor tonnage, but better protection since we don't have the turret anymore. And we aren't limited to that 6-hex range of Clan ER Small Lasers. Sure, four of them packed a punch, but this guy has twin ER Medium Lasers AND an SRM-6! And a price tag of 638,000 C-Bills.
Yep. That's right. We didn't lose a zero or two. Six hundred and thirty-eight thousand C-Bills.
MA
-
I don't mean to sound stupid, but here goes. Don't vehicles have to dedicate tonnage to carrying Elementals?
-
I don't mean to sound stupid, but here goes. Don't vehicles have to dedicate tonnage to carrying Elementals?
Not OmniVehicles. Like OmniMechs, OmniVehicles can transport Elementals without any specialized equipment. If I am remembering correctly.
MA
-
I'd agree this weight category sounds like something that would be jumped on by the Clans eagerly. Why not make these two of the vehicle categories: a budget version for the smaller clans and a high performance version for the more broadminded of the larger clans.
-
A 20-ton floor? I wouldn't.
As to the Shamash . . . it was hobbled by the designers from the beginning. Look at what it could have been:
I will not establish a floor for these contests then but the Shamash was not designed in the Ultralight concept MA. Bigger is still better. How is a 15 ton micro machine going to be the Clans' Main Battle Tank? Its a new way of thinking that has to be established first similar to the creation of the ProtoMech. Thing is I think Clan Ultralight Vehicles can defeat ProtoMechs. Plus as we talked about there are several other advantages.
One warrior per vehicle making them a separate class onto themselves. They can earn honor unlike larger Vehicles. Their inherent speed and maneuverability. Size making their production insignificant unlike Mechs/Fighters/Larger Vehicles. A simple and cheap concept which fleshed out under current rules would have unique advantages. I think these challenges will establish the class if you will during the contest.
I don't mean to sound stupid, but here goes. Don't vehicles have to dedicate tonnage to carrying Elementals?
I will do some research into this area. As MA indicates making them OmniVehicles may entitle them to a certain amount of free carriage.
Rules wise if we are generating a new concept outside of established norms this would be something that because of size/ weight concerns I would examine.
I'd agree this weight category sounds like something that would be jumped on by the Clans eagerly. Why not make these two of the vehicle categories: a budget version for the smaller clans and a high performance version for the more broadminded of the larger clans.
It does seem to have merit with us looking at it now and perhaps half way through the contest the ilKhan would realize what a potential valuable innovation he has here. However, he is following out a Grand Council that calls for the creation of 7 Combat OmniVehicles for the Clans to bolster their war efforts. This is where I think you will see the contest split with certain folks concentrating on Ultralights and others going the more conventional route. Again because of their small size Ultralight production like Elementals will not fall under the direction of the Quicksilver Program so you could certainly see a schism.
-
15-ton Main Battle Tank?
Of course not!
However, there are other roles where 10-15 ton warmachines can adequately serve. Just like a Fire Moth or Mist Lynx isn't going to be the main combat 'Mech of a Clan, they are still useful enough to be present within the Touman.
MA
-
I will do some research into this area. As MA indicates making them OmniVehicles may entitle them to a certain amount of free carriage.
Rules wise if we are generating a new concept outside of established norms this would be something that because of size/ weight concerns I would examine.
Total Warfare, page 227. This (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/clan-chatterweb/clan-using-magnetic-clamps/?nowap) thread at BattleTech.com (first one I found). And HERE (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/ground-combat/battlearmor-vtol-rush/). And HERE (http://bg.battletech.com/forums/ground-combat/omnimechba-clarification/).
MA
-
let's remember for a moment that "Ultra Light" is perfectly tournament legal for vehicles. See the Garbiel and Savannah Master.
-
That is why they are so attractive as an alternative to the ProtoMech for example. Throw in the single warrior per ultralight, impressive maneuverability and capabilities in comparison to size/cost and its an interesting idea for the Clans. What do you think JP?
-
Protomechs served a different niche then combat vehicles though, the biggest problem is most people do not use them correctly. there have been some great articles on Protomechs in the CBT Forums lately
-
Going off this
Scout - speed and to a lesser extent electronics matter, firepower and protection really don't. Could be VTOL, Hover or even other motive types.
Light Tank - primarily this fills the role of something cheap that can be deployed in large numbers. I'm not sure any Clan would bother with this.
Fast Attack Tank - fast and hard-hitting, almost always hover. Armour is sacrificed The Epona basically has this covered.
Medium Tank - a balance between speed, firepower and armour. These are typically the backbone of a large armoured force, around the top of the medium and bottom of the heavy weight bracket.
Main Battle Tank - intended to slug it out with battlemechs, these compare well in firepower and protection but have to trade off speed to maintain that parity. Usually operate at the upper end of heavy or the lower end of assault tonnage. Usually tracked but not always.
Assault Tank - very heavily armed and armoured, these are used to assault or guard fixed locations and therefore need very little speed. They tend to turn into pill-boxes quite easily. Tracks are mandatory for survivability.
Weapon Carriers - neither fast nor well protected, these are all about throwing the maximum amount of firepower down-range. Tend to be larger for the needed tonnage.
I've a few thoughts on this.
Scout - The Shamash and Ashur definately fill out this role but because of their specialized nature they would probably be way down the totem pole for any new designs. Or perhaps because of it, they are. I don't know if the new ilKhan will 'suggest' that perhaps 2nd line Warriors be used, and if so, shove them in the scouts, their role is to locate the enemy and not fight them, perfect for Solhama or test downs.
Light Tank - We kind of have this with the Ares which is light, armoured at best with baking foil or a tin pan where its thickest, but has a fairly notable slap. you've also got the Zorya and Mithras although these are far more second line than the Ares. I can see these being moderately popular, cheap to produce and armed enough to let someone know they've been hit, a nice filler for PGC forces.
Fast Attack Tank - Epona for sure, there's also the later http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hephaestus which would fill this out nicely, especially if you pulled out the infantry bay.
Medium Tank - The Clans are basically lacking a medium striker like tank until the Enyo comes along and this is one area that could be seen as a gap needing to be filled. The Ku’s too slow, the Hachiman’s a Weapons carrier more than a tank and is a support vehicle. The Oro is also too slow and too inflexible due to its wildly varying weapon ranges and its terrifyingly thin hide. So the ‘medium tank’ area could be one for exploration and I think might be seen as the best form of a compromise candidate between the Clans who go REEEEEEEE!!! At the sheer thought of vehicles and those who see their utility. And a medium vehicle wouldn’t consume the resources of a heavy or assault.
Main Battle Tank – Again an area the Clans generally lack. The Oro’s more a defensive unit although how its meant to act as an AA gun with that short range LB-20 is beyond me. And its not really until we get later things like the Axel IIC or Morrigu that the Clans get something like a real MBT. Again, this I can see being a bit more popular but far rarer than Medium strike tanks.
Assault Tank – Whilst the Clans have the Mars and its got enough firepower to make an assault dropship sit up and take notice, we know its not very common and only the Horses make them. Assault tanks I think would be passed over by Quicksilver as they consume a large amount of resources, and take up valuable space in DropShips and are full of mobility limitations. Maybe the Horses make an upgrade of the Mars but otherwise I’d say that to avoid a potential political hot potato the ilKhan does not authorize an assault tank under the Quicksilver program. But perhaps he also does not specifically BAN one being built, so this could mean the Horses make a 95 ton tank or something for themselves etc.
Weapon Carriers – We’ve already got two, the Athena and Huey, but both are really quite complex vehicles but I can see the Clans actually favouring a weapon carrier like vehicle. Cheap to make and heavily armed if they have the firepower to delete a target or two then they’ve probably made their money back. They’d almost certinally be a defensive unit though but this might be seen as a positive because during the period of rebuilding, the Invader Clans need defensive units to bolster their PGC’s to defend against the near constant raiding that was going on in the period following Tukkayid.
-
Don't forget the old SLDF designs that could be easily retooled/upgraded.
For example, you could add:
Fast Attack Tank: the Lightning (my favourite)
Medium Tank: the Galleon, the Chevalier
Main Battle Tank: the Bulldog, the Demon
Assault Tank: Puma, Von Luckner, Alacorn
Weapon Carrier: the Rhino, the LB-X Carrier
-
I was always a fan of the carriers (LRM & SRM)
I clanified them just to see what they would look like. I thought IS ones were lethal jeez
SRM Carrier (Clan)
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3001+
Tech Rating: F/X-F-D-C
Weight: 60 tons
BV: 1,079
Cost: 2,240,000 C-bills
Role: Ambusher
Movement: 4/6 (Tracked)
Engine: 240 ICE
Internal: 24
Armor: 153 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
--------------------------
Front 6 45
Right 6 39
Left 6 39
Rear 6 30
Weapons Loc Heat
--------------------
Narc FR 0
SRM 6 FR 4
SRM 6 FR 4
SRM 6 FR 4
SRM 6 FR 4
SRM 6 FR 4
SRM 6 FR 4
SRM 6 FR 4
SRM 6 FR 4
Ammo Loc Shots
------------------------
Narc Pods BD 12
SRM 6 Ammo BD 60
LRM Carrier (Clan)
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3001+
Tech Rating: F/X-E-D-D
Weight: 80 tons
BV: 1,975
Cost: 6,144,000 C-bills
Source: Clan Invasion
Role: Missile Boat
Movement: 2/3 (Tracked)
Engine: 160
Internal: 32
Armor: 153 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
--------------------------
Front 8 47
Right 8 38
Left 8 38
Rear 8 30
Weapons Loc Heat
--------------------
LRM 20 FR 6
LRM 20 FR 6
LRM 20 FR 6
LRM 20 FR 6
LRM 20 FR 6
LRM 20 FR 6
LRM 20 FR 6
Ammo Loc Shots
-------------------------
LRM 20 Ammo BD 96
A mixed binary of these two working together in certain settings would wreck havoc on competing mechs
-
A mixed binary of these two working together in certain settings would wreck havoc on competing mechs
And if you make an Omni SRM/LRM/Streak Launcher, it would be even more confusing.
-
Thinking of IICing the old SLDF era tanks I banged these out
Demon IIC Tank
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3145+
Tech Rating: F/X-X-X-D
Weight: 60 tons
BV: 1,343
Cost: 3,741,563 C-bills
Movement: 4/6 (Wheeled)
Engine: 220
Internal: 30
Armor: 160
Internal Armor
---------------------------
Front 6 50
Right 6 30
Left 6 30
Rear 6 20
Turret 6 30
Weapons Loc Heat Omni
---------------------------------
Gauss Rifle TU 1 Fixed
SRM 6 FR 4 Fixed
ER Medium Laser TU 5 Fixed
ER Medium Laser TU 5 Fixed
Machine Gun LS 0 Fixed
Machine Gun LS 0 Fixed
Machine Gun RS 0 Fixed
Machine Gun RS 0 Fixed
Machine Gun RR 0 Fixed
Machine Gun RR 0 Fixed
Machine Gun FR 0 Fixed
Machine Gun FR 0 Fixed
Ammo Loc Shots Omni
------------------------------------------
Gauss Rifle Ammo [Clan] TU 8 Fixed
Gauss Rifle Ammo [Clan] TU 8 Fixed
SRM 6 Ammo FR 15 Fixed
SRM 6 Ammo FR 15 Fixed
Machine Gun Ammo BD 200 Fixed
Equipment Loc Omni
-------------------------------
ECM Suite [Clan] BD Fixed
Active Probe [Clan] TU Fixed
Carrying Capacity
-----------------
One battle armor squad
Still hard hitting with its Gauss, the Demon IIC has a heavier punch thanks to its ER medium lasers and absolutely bristles with machine guns with pairs mounted on every quadrant of its hull allowing for all round fire against Spheroid or Bandit infantry forces, whilst an active probe seeks the target out.
Burke IIC Support Tank
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3145+
Tech Rating: F/X-X-X-D
Weight: 75 tons
BV: 1,305
Cost: 5,209,531 C-bills
Movement: 3/5 (Tracked)
Engine: 225
Internal: 40
Armor: 124 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
---------------------------
Front 8 32
Right 8 23
Left 8 23
Rear 8 16
Turret 8 30
Weapons Loc Heat Omni
--------------------------------------
ER Large Laser TU 12 Fixed
ER Large Laser TU 12 Fixed
ER Large Laser TU 12 Fixed
Anti-Missile System None 1 Fixed
Ammo Loc Shots Omni
----------------------
Carrying Capacity
-----------------
One battle armor squad
The Burke IIC looses the LRM and gains a more useful cruising speed and the armour is upgraded to 6.5 tons of Ferro fibrous armour. The big change is the weapons, whilst to go for the PPC equivalent, I could just swap out the 'ol Peepers for a trio of large pulse lasers, that would make it an avalanche of cheddar and this is why we can't have nice things. So out go the PPCs and in go a trio of ER Large lasers, making this thing basically a weapons carrier.
Its got no other weapons save an AMS and an ECM.
Rhino IIC Support Tank
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3145+
Tech Rating: F/X-X-X-D
Weight: 80 tons
BV: 2,128
Cost: 6,994,800 C-bills
Movement: 3/5 (Tracked)
Engine: 240
Internal: 40
Armor: 268 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
---------------------------
Front 8 62
Right 8 52
Left 8 52
Rear 8 40
Turret 8 62
Weapons Loc Heat
------------------------------
LRM 20 TU 6
LRM 20 TU 6
ER Medium Laser FR 5
LRM 15 TU 5
LRM 15 TU 5
Small Pulse Laser FR 2
Ammo Loc Shots
------------------------------------------------
LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 6
LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 6
LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 6
LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 6
LRM 15 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 8
LRM 15 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 8
LRM 15 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 8
LRM 15 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 8
LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 6
LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 6
Equipment Loc
-----------------------
Artemis IV FCS TU
Artemis IV FCS TU
Artemis IV FCS TU
Artemis IV FCS TU
ECM Suite [Clan] TU
The Rhino IIC is a Horse design and kicks up a stink because of the 'waste' of using an XL engine AND ferro-fibrous armour on the tank. But, based on the Royal version of the Rhino from SLDF service the Rhino IIC packs a far greater punch with its pair of LRM-20's and LRM-15's, each fitted with Artemis IV fire control. For self defence the tank only has a single ER medium laser and a Small pulse laser, both mounted in the hull as well as an ECM suite. The rest of the Tanks tonnage is devoted to ammunition with 8 tons of LRM-20 ammo and 4 tons of LRM-15 allowing it to maintain its barrage for a long time. 14 tons of Ferro-fibrous armour give it better protection than the original Rhino and make it exceptionally sturdy.
Lightning IIC Scout tank
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3145+
Tech Rating: F/X-X-X-D
Weight: 35 tons
BV: 1,363
Cost: 5,101,700 C-bills
Movement: 11/17 (Hover)
Engine: 210 XL
Internal: 20
Armor: 86 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
---------------------------
Front 4 20
Right 4 18
Left 4 18
Rear 4 12
Turret 4 18
Weapons Loc Heat
-------------------------------
Medium Pulse Laser TU 4
Medium Pulse Laser TU 4
TAG (Clan) TU 0
Streak SRM 6 TU 4
Small Pulse Laser TU 2
Machine Gun FR 0
Machine Gun FR 0
Ammo Loc Shots
-------------------------------
Streak SRM 6 Ammo BD 15
Machine Gun Ammo BD 200
Equipment Loc
--------------------------
Active Probe [Clan] TU
ECM Suite [Clan] BD
The Lightning IIC is also a 'high tech' vehicle, and can operate as both a scout and skirmishing vehicle. Retaining the huge speed of the SLDF version the IIC features an XL engine and ferro fibrous armour but most surprisingly is the introduction of a turret which mounts nearly all the tanks weapons. A potent array of electronics including an ECM, Active probe and TAG allow it to spot for other forces whilst a pair of medium pulse lasers, and streak SRM-6 let it threaten hostile scouts. For anti-infantry or anti-insurgent work the Lightning IIC also features a pair of MGs in the bow and a turret mounted small pulse laser.
Manticore IIC MBT
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3145+
Tech Rating: F/X-X-X-D
Weight: 60 tons
BV: 1,497
Cost: 3,800,000 C-bills
Movement: 4/6 (Tracked)
Engine: 240
Internal: 30
Armor: 182 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
---------------------------
Front 6 43
Right 6 35
Left 6 35
Rear 6 26
Turret 6 43
Weapons Loc Heat
------------------------------
Large Pulse Laser TU 10
LRM 15 TU 5
Streak SRM 6 TU 4
Machine Gun FR 0
Machine Gun FR 0
Streak SRM 6 TU 4
Ammo Loc Shots
------------------------------------------------
LRM 15 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 8
LRM 15 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 8
Streak SRM 6 Ammo BD 15
Machine Gun Ammo BD 200
Equipment Loc
-----------------------
Artemis IV FCS TU
ECM Suite [Clan] BD
The Manticore IIC retains the same mobility profile as the old SLDF standby but features heavier yet lighter protection thanks to the inclusion of ferro-fibrous armour. Like the old SLDF vehicle the Tanks punch comes from an energy weapon, in this case a large pulse laser, and for long range work an Artemis IV enhanced LRM-15. Mid to short range fire comes from a pair of Streak SRM-6 launchers and anti-infantry defences are provided by a pair of machine guns.
Puma IIC Assault Tank
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3145+
Tech Rating: F/X-X-X-D
Weight: 95 tons
BV: 2,342
Cost: 19,349,850 C-bills
Movement: 3/5 (Tracked)
Engine: 285 XL
Internal: 50
Armor: 220 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
---------------------------
Front 10 54
Right 10 41
Left 10 41
Rear 10 32
Turret 10 52
Weapons Loc Heat
--------------------------------
LRM 20 FR 6
LRM 20 FR 6
ER PPC TU 15
ER Medium Laser TU 5
ER Medium Laser TU 5
Small Pulse Laser TU 2
Small Pulse Laser TU 2
Streak SRM 4 LS 3
Streak SRM 4 RS 3
Machine Gun RR 0
Machine Gun RR 0
Anti-Missile System TU 1
Ammo Loc Shots
------------------------------------------------
LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo FR 6
LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo FR 6
LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo FR 6
LRM 20 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo FR 6
Streak SRM 4 Ammo LS 25
Streak SRM 4 Ammo RS 25
Half Machine Gun Ammo RR 100
Anti-Missile System Ammo [Clan] BD 24
Equipment Loc
-----------------------
Artemis IV FCS FR
Artemis IV FCS FR
ECM Suite [Clan] BD
Finally the Puma IIC, another Horse design that comes with the influences of their work on the Mars XL, the Puma IIC moves some weapons around and mirrors the Mars's LRM launcher layout with the pair of Artemis equipped LRM-20's mounted to fire over the front of the tank. The energy weapons are now all mounted in the turret with an ER PPC giving the tank its main punch whilst a pair of ER medium lasers can engage at shorter ranges and for point defence and anti-infantry work a pair of small pulse lasers can engage.
The flanks of the tank are covered by a Streak SRM-4 and the rear is covered by a pair of machine guns. The use of ferro-fibrous armour also considerably thickens the tanks hide but it still falls below tanks like the Challenger X in terms of protection.
Again here I'm just spitballing some ideas :) IICing up some ideas is quick and easy and the Clans would probably have some of the original vehicles lingering in Brian Caches or with bottom tier PGCs so they could probably use them as a starting point.
Any thoughts and comments are most welcome as always :D
-
Adrestia Strike Tank
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3145+
Tech Rating: F/X-X-X-D
Weight: 45 tons
BV: 1,141
Cost: 2,164,850 C-bills
Movement: 5/8 (Tracked)
Engine: 225
Internal: 25
Armor: 115 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
---------------------------
Front 5 28
Right 5 23
Left 5 23
Rear 5 18
Turret 5 23
Weapons Loc Heat
---------------------------
ER Large Laser TU 12
Streak SRM 6 TU 4
Streak SRM 6 TU 4
Machine Gun FR 0
Machine Gun RS 0
Machine Gun LS 0
Machine Gun RR 0
Ammo Loc Shots
-------------------------------
Streak SRM 6 Ammo BD 15
Streak SRM 6 Ammo BD 15
Machine Gun Ammo BD 200
Based on the Ares (hence the name) the Adrestia is 5 tons heavier and mirrors its parent design's main armament of an ER large laser and missiles, but instead of a mix of LRM launchers the Adrestia features a pair of Streak SRM-6 launchers mounted in independently elevating mountings on the side of the turret. The ER laser can punch holes in most targets and the conservative Streak launchers give the tank increased endurance whilst thicker armour allows the Adrestia to take damage unlike the Ares which was notorious amongst Clan crews for its thin protection. Capable of hitting 86kph the Adrestia is faster than the Ares and a quartet of machine guns, spread around the tanks hull and fired remotely by the gunner can deal with most infantry threats.
Put forwards to replace the older Ares the Adrestia could be used in a striker role due to its useful speed which allowed it to keep up with Clan Mechs.
Iolaus Attacker
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3145+
Tech Rating: F/X-X-X-D
Weight: 40 tons
BV: 1,263
Cost: 2,624,700 C-bills
Movement: 8/12 (Hover)
Engine: 145
Internal: 20
Armor: 115 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
---------------------------
Front 4 28
Right 4 23
Left 4 23
Rear 4 18
Turret 4 23
Weapons Loc Heat
---------------------------
LRM 10 TU 4
LRM 10 TU 4
SRM 6 TU 4
SRM 6 TU 4
ER Small Laser FR 2
ER Small Laser FR 2
Ammo Loc Shots
------------------------------------------------
LRM 10 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 12
LRM 10 (Clan) Artemis-capable Ammo BD 12
SRM 6 Ammo BD 15
SRM 6 Ammo BD 15
Equipment Loc
---------------------
Artemis IV FCS TU
Artemis IV FCS TU
The Iolaus attacker was a rather large hovercraft that was roughly analogus to the Inner Sphere's Striker and Harasser but on a single platform. Primarlily armed with missiles the newly developed Iolaus could engage from long range with its pair of Artemis equipped LRM-10s and at shorter ranges a pair of SRM-6s could also enhance the vehicles barrage capabilities. Finally two ER small lasers were mounted above the cockpit but the tanks main armament was its missiles. Capable of hitting 129kph the Iolaus was able to control the range of an engagement and anything fast enough to catch it could find itself quite quickly outgunned.
-
Yea I'm of the opinion the clans with the way they strayed from Kerensky's standardized cluster formations only a handful at best of Clans would still use vehicles. Omnivehicles make no sense to me as the main benefit of vehicles really is there cheapness. They may have created a few new designs to account for deficiencies after Amaris War and Operation Klondike. But for the most part they would have concentrated on simply upgrading existing SLDF ones.
I was always a fan of the Kanga myself figure upgrade the speed by utilizing the same engine as used on the Bandit Hover Tank to simplify production and repairs.
Kanga Medium Hovertank Clan
Base Tech Level: Experimental (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 2953+
Tech Rating: F/X-F-D-D
Weight: 50 tons
BV: 1,604
Cost: 3,046,333 C-bills
Movement: 9/14/9 (Hover)
Engine: 215
Internal: 20
Armor: 115 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
--------------------------
Front 5 36
Right 5 28
Left 5 28
Rear 5 23
Weapons Loc Heat
--------------------------------
Large Pulse Laser FR 10
Streak SRM 6 FR 4
Anti-Missile System FR 1
Machine Gun FR 0
Machine Gun FR 0
Ammo Loc Shots
---------------------------------------------
Half Machine Gun Ammo BD 100
Streak SRM 6 Ammo BD 15
Anti-Missile System Ammo [Clan] BD 24
Or the old Alacorn III upgraded to LBX makes a great antifighter platform basically a supped up Partisan.
Alacorn Heavy Tank Mk III
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 2957+
Tech Rating: F/X-F-D-D
Weight: 95 tons
BV: 1,667
Cost: 7,384,163 C-bills
Role: Juggernaut
Movement: 3/5 (Tracked)
Engine: 285
Internal: 50
Armor: 296 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
---------------------------
Front 10 83
Right 10 59
Left 10 59
Rear 10 45
Turret 10 50
Weapons Loc Heat
--------------------------------
LB 10-X AC TU 2
LB 10-X AC TU 2
LB 10-X AC TU 2
Anti-Missile System FR 1
ER Small Laser RR 2
ER Small Laser LS 2
ER Small Laser RS 2
Ammo Loc Shots
---------------------------------------------
Anti-Missile System Ammo [Clan] BD 24
Anti-Missile System Ammo [Clan] BD 24
LB 10-X Cluster Ammo BD 10
LB 10-X Cluster Ammo BD 10
LB 10-X Cluster Ammo BD 10
LB 10-X Cluster Ammo BD 10
LB 10-X Cluster Ammo BD 10
LB 10-X AC Ammo BD 10
LB 10-X AC Ammo BD 10
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And if you make an Omni SRM/LRM/Streak Launcher, it would be even more confusing.
Im not a real big fan of Omnivehicles cost and clan philosophy with the dislike of sharing honor amongst crew makes vehicles freebirths and technicians the majority of crews and why would the Clans waste resources on them. With minor exceptions of course.
Possibly Hell's Horses would do this in the future especially with the upgrading of LRMs to Streak LRMs and the invention of the ATM systems.
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The Horses would probably make more omnivehicles if they could honestly get away with it without the rest of the Clans going REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!! at them in the Grand Council for being 'unclan like'.
I don't honestly know how often the Horses deployed tanks, was it on an ad-hoc basis as and when needed or did they break them out all the time, but only with Clans who would 'allow' it in Trials, so against the Falcons or Jags you don't break out the tanks, but against the Scorpions or Wolves, go for it.
But I agree that Omnivehicles would probably not be a thing, or would be VERY rare outside the Horses.
Also I think in canon terms we should utterly ignore the Crew requirements of tanks, the biggest 100 ton assault tank would probably have no more than 5
Commander
Gunner
'Loader' (basically the guy/gal who maintains the weapons systems)
Driver
Comm's operator/Defensive systems operator - lowest ranked member of the crew.
But the Clans would probably try to make their vehicles crews be as small as possible with 2 being seen as preferable
So something like an Odin for example might have
Driver
Commander
But they double up
Driver/comms
Commander/Gunner
And so on.
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Bonus AP's for us old enough to remember this names homage lol.
Sky Wolf
Base Tech Level: Standard (Clan)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced 2999+
Standard -
Tech Rating: F/X-E-D-D
Weight: 15 tons
BV: 691
Cost: 1,090,500 C-bills
Movement: 7/11 (VTOL)
Engine: 10
Internal: 10
Armor: 76 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
--------------------------
Front 2 26
Right 2 16
Left 2 16
Rear 2 16
Rotor 2 2
Weapons Loc Heat
-------------------------------
ER Medium Laser FR 5
Medium Pulse Laser FR 4
Equipment Loc
----------------------------
Recon Camera FR
Active Probe [Clan] BD
ECM Suite [Clan] BD
Searchlight (Mounted) FR
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I could see less a M1 has 4 crew and weighs 70 tons. So I figure in the future would need less or at least same for anything of similar size or larger. With advanced electronics even how 3050 is still worse than todays in some respects it seems like.
Gunner, Driver. Some would have Commanders but wouldn't think it would be needed for every vehicle and same with Loader especially on those designs that don't utilize ammo. Battlemechs have autoloading devices I would think vehicles would as well. And really why couldn't it be one guy. I think game designers just got lazy and said well it needs it today it will still need it in the future.
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Amen :)
But the problem with overloading a crewman with too much is still a big problem. I'd say that no tank in B-tech unless their ball achingly primitive has a manual loader any more and any big bore cannon or something that has a big enough round that's not a missile loads automatically either in some kind of Soviet style carosel type a Western autoloader or even belt fed or something. But there's no bloke or lass feeding rounds into the breech.
But overloading a crewman is something you want to avoid. In a tiny tank like the odin you might have two crew squashed in side by side, ones the driver and the others the gunner and comms. The Ares might be set up like an attack helo with the gunner at the front or back and the driver/commander in the other seat.
But as the tanks get bigger and more guns go on them you probably want someone who's job it is to monitor the weapons etc whilst also probably acting as the radio operator or EW controller. This would be the 'loader' in modern parlance.
Bigger vehicles in Clan use might be seen as more important so in something like a Mars the comander goes away from being the gunner as well to just commanding the Tank and coordinating friendly forces. And this would mean you get a dedicated gunner now needed. And his or her job is to pick out targets probably indicated by the commander and engage those.
And sure you can bet that they have systems more akin to a helo, the gun will look where the gunner is looking and you can use eye movements to designate targets as seen here 39 seconds in
https://youtu.be/nZR_lGjtIHM?t=39
But the more complex a system the more chance for it to go wrong, voice commands might be a bit twitchy if you're rushed or basically panicked or have an accent (which won't be a think in the clans but imagine - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAz_UvnUeuU if you will :p
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Thanks for the designs marauder648 and Bradshaw. When we came up with the Vehicle concepts and designs in this thread more than two years ago there were many similar ideas. Here are all the Quicksilver links for you guys below.
QS 30: Gunship OmniVehicle
https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=2831.0
QS 31: Hover Hellraiser OmniVehicle
https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=2840.0
QS 32: Urban Assault OmniVehicle
https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=2848.0
QS 33: Universal Weapons Carrier
https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=2853.0
QS 34: Strike OmniTank
https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=2868.0
QS 35: Main Battle OmniTank
https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=2871.0
QS 36: Assault OmniTank
https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=2875.0
IIC Design Contest
www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=3095.0
Huey and Zorya Fusion Engine Upgrades
https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=3087.0
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I see you guys are also coming to the same crew discussions we had in this thread but have yet to Clanify them? Basically who is the true warrior here was the big question. Vehicle Commander? The Gunner? I mean aren't loaders and drivers non-warrior support staff?
Please look back in the thread for our more details thoughts on this topic which i am vastly over simplifying.
Ultimately it skewed the designs into 15 ton increments and usually toward the lighter side with less crew requirements under existing rules.
This led to a whole nother development of Ultra Light OmniVehicles requiring a single warrior which has yet to be fully adopted.
Tech wise developments have begun to try and reduce crew requirements but those are future tech right now.
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An interesting thought is what if a clan used drones for vehicles to just say we need them but dont want to waste warriors on them
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An interesting thought is what if a clan used drones for vehicles to just say we need them but dont want to waste warriors on them
I think their prejudice against stuff like that stemming from the M5 and The Great Father destroying all such machines would be reason enough. Even if they were drones a-la remote controlled ones like we have now, I think that would be a no no in the dumb, contradictory nature of the Clans honour system.
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Drones i see as the domain of comstar.
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I am interested to hear what Bradshaw and marauder648 have to say on mixed caste vehicle crews. I believe a Technician is a natural co-pilot type. A Laborer doing menial task like loading fits well. Mercants and scientists could be interesting fits too but are they to valuable elsewhere?
Warships are a good example of inter caste combatants.
This also plays well to Blood Spirit as they use vehicles in line service and have armed their lower castes.
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I think their prejudice against stuff like that stemming from the M5 and The Great Father destroying all such machines would be reason enough. Even if they were drones a-la remote controlled ones like we have now, I think that would be a no no in the dumb, contradictory nature of the Clans honour system.
Isnt EI basically remote control though but your still in the mech instead of from a distance at least thats how i remember the old cartoon portrayed it. Basically riggers from shadowrun.
Im rewriting an old personally created periphery powers history from an campaign and having them use this as their battlefield doctrine to make up for the lack of resources initially in their founding. Started as entertainment for the masses before being converted to military
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I am interested to hear what Bradshaw and marauder648 have to say on mixed caste vehicle crews. I believe a Technician is a natural co-pilot type. A Laborer doing menial task like loading fits well. Mercants and scientists could be interesting fits too but are they to valuable elsewhere?
Warships are a good example of inter caste combatants.
I could see more lenient clans using mixed crews but others would be vehemently against it. Id say on combat vehicles warrior gunner, technicians loader/supplemental and laborer drivers. Never merchants ans possibly scientists on very specialized equipment like mobile command or MASH unit
This also plays well to Blood Spirit as they use vehicles in line service and have armed their lower castes.
Truthfully im shocked someone hasn't called for their annihilation due to this
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I could see more lenient clans using mixed crews but others would be vehemently against it. Id say on combat vehicles warrior gunner, technicians loader/supplemental and laborer drivers. Never merchants ans possibly scientists on very specialized equipment like mobile command or MASH unit
Merchants could run communications or be in charge of the ordinance as logistics is a major concern for them.
Scientists being medics is certainly useful but i was also thinking of them as an strategic or tactical adviser to the warrior perhaps running the computers of larger vehicles.
Truthfully im shocked someone hasn't called for their annihilation due to this
Why do you think Burrock hates them so much?
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Merchants could run communications or be in charge of the ordinance as logistics is a major concern for them.
Yes could see that on warships and dropships not in a combat vehicle
Scientists being medics is certainly useful but i was also thinking of them as an strategic or tactical adviser to the warrior perhaps running the computers of larger vehicles.
Yes its why i mentioned mobile Command
Truthfully im shocked someone hasn't called for their annihilation due to this
Why do you think Burrock hates them so much?
Yea just was reading up on kind of surprised the council blew off this charge. I would have thought prior to burrock absorption Spirits and Adders would get along both are very espirit de corps
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Warships are a good example of inter caste combatants.
I don't remember the way Clans solved the Zellbringen thing with Warships and who are the Warriors then.
I remember how they played it during Operation Klondike but modern Clans are above this, aren't they? ;)
Gunner, Driver. Some would have Commanders but wouldn't think it would be needed for every vehicle and same with Loader especially on those designs that don't utilize ammo. Battlemechs have autoloading devices I would think vehicles would as well. And really why couldn't it be one guy. I think game designers just got lazy and said well it needs it today it will still need it in the future.
Just ask the French tank crews and the German tank crews in 1940 if specialised tasks made a difference.
Im not a real big fan of Omnivehicles cost and clan philosophy with the dislike of sharing honor amongst crew makes vehicles freebirths and technicians the majority of crews and why would the Clans waste resources on them. With minor exceptions of course.
The LRM/SRM Carrier is the only obvious choice to maximise flexibility.
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Just ask the French tank crews and the German tank crews in 1940 if specialised tasks made a difference.
I would need refresh my memory of this time period but i do recall french tanks were better than Germans but all German tanks had radios and the french only had a few allowing superior on the spot tactical changes to ofset their weakness. Didnt the Germans near the end roll out a couple super tanks weighing something like 200 tons
Im not a real big fan of Omnivehicles cost and clan philosophy with the dislike of sharing honor amongst crew makes vehicles freebirths and technicians the majority of crews and why would the Clans waste resources on them. With minor exceptions of course.
The LRM/SRM Carrier is the only obvious choice to maximise flexibility.
[/quote]
Agree its why i did think possible in future once more missile combo weapons are available making it worthwhile.
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Cant copy and paste from tablet but found naval rules for clans in Battlespace page 10
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Re WW2 and French tanks, two of their tanks the S-35 and B1 were superior in terms of protection to German tanks but the French problem was mostly doctrinal and the way they fought wasn't made to counter the Blitzkrieg. It could have if given a chance as they'd have fought a WW1 artillery based battle. But all French tanks had a problem with 1 man turrets where the Commander was simply over worked having to perform the actions of gunner, loader and trying to command the tank and any nearby forces.
With regards the Clans and their tank crews this is how I see they get round their Honour issues.
1 - The Horses and other (if there was any) vehicle minded Clans, but mainly the Horses see the whole crew as a single Warrior. They all work together and share the honour of battle between them. That way tank crews are not as 'honourable' as the Mechwarriors but by working as a team (which the Horses emphasise for example) they can bring themselves honour. This works 'best' with small crews who would stick together and work together.
2 - Less vehicle minded Clans also have this, but its not so they can all get honour, its for the most senior crewman who's probably a test down or Solhama who can get that honour, but its seen as a lesser form of fighting and not as capable, but still recognised for what they do.
3 - Real hardcore traditionalists (Jags, Falcons etc) "NO HONOUR FOR YOU! A DISHNOUR ON YOUR COW!" Tanks are viewed as at best a useful neccessity for garrison duties and the like and the realm of Solhama personnel who are expected to do something useful before dying.
Also Re the Spirits and their crewing of tanks. Since 'arming the lower castes' is pretty much a huge no-no for the Clans and if found to be being done a very good case for someone to Absorb you or worse, the Spirits probably got around it with rules lawyering, following the word of the Great Father and Co rather than the Spirit which most of the Clans did. In theory there was no law that stopped the Clans from letting lower castes actually test to try and improve their position and become Warriors, just a massive cultural bias against it that became unwritten law. But if say the Spirits allowed lower castes to step forwards and try to get through a very harsh training regimen and the like that really weeded out numbers either through injury, death or failure, and the end result was say a cluster or two's worth of personnel, then following the exact letter of the Laws of the Clans, they've not done anything wrong as they are not mass arming their civvies.
I would need refresh my memory of this time period but i do recall french tanks were better than Germans but all German tanks had radios and the french only had a few allowing superior on the spot tactical changes to ofset their weakness. Didnt the Germans near the end roll out a couple super tanks weighing something like 200 tons
Re radios this is very true, and German tanks had generally superior layouts with a 3 man turret allowing the tank commander to actually command and direct the tank, not have to shift his focus between 3 jobs. This made them much more flexible and able to react quicker, combined with far superior doctrine to the French, allowed their inferior tanks (the main tank of the German army was the Panzer III which had real issues against the heavily armoured French tanks, whilst the Panzer IV was a support tank at the time) to outfight the French.
And yep they were looking at some super heavy designs, one of which was completed with the Maus tank, which was utterly absurd and was just a waste of resources and would have been a barely mobile bunker that would make a fine target for allied aircraft. There was also a design called the E-100 which they build part of. Both of these tanks were well over 100 tons and are still the heaviest armoured vehicles ever made.
For some intersting vids about French tanks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMqbkQcDe9E this one very well illuminates the problem of overloading a tank commander and the problem that plagued all French tanks with their 1 man turrets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwREJT3KfgY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRRdUgAgpug / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfaVeZ_xjIc
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNMEobVlfM8 / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71f9or59UdM
are interesting and quite amusing, the chap doing the vids is an ex tanker himself and is a military historian so he knows his stuff.
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Spot on with the thoughts on Horses, possibly using sibkos trained together for crews which is different than other clans that seem to separate sibkos after achieving warrior status.
I took a peak at the videos will watch them later when I have time.
Id have to look at each clans cluster toumans but I know Star Adder uses artillery at Galaxy Command level and other vehicles in their 2nd line forces. I could see a possible upgrading of some of those clusters, Armored Calvary Clusters more than likely, but I wouldn't think it would be a full clan transition.
I could see aged out warriors being used as crewmembers as well. Some may think positively of doing this as it makes use of a resource under or miss utilized and clan warriors prefer a death on the battlefield.
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Blood Spirit
Stayed true to Kerensky's organization. Three BattleMech Trinaries, one Combat Vehicle Trinary and one Infantry Trinary for each cluster. Aerospace attached upon need by Naval Reserve.
Burrock
From the little I'm able to find on them they used Binaries as main organization with Mech x2/x3, Aerospace, & Elemental no vehicles but unable to find out anything about second line forces.
Cloud Cobra
Interesting Structure I see definitely the Aerospace clan
Frontline 2 to 3 Trinaries of Battlemech or Aerospace with Trinary of Battlearmor in most. It states uses conventional infantry and combat vehicles to augment defensive responsibilities but in no Cluster type do they list Armored Vehicles so possibly they are attached upon need.
Coyote
Conventional armor are treated as little more than cannon fodder or as an insult to be used against a hated foe.
Diamond Shark
No mention of vehicles at all in front or secondline forces
Fire Mandrill
Only found one Kindraa with vehicles and it was binary of solhema vehicles in Kindraa Payne-Beyl-Grant mentions they are Star League vintage vehicles.
Ghost Bear
Uses combat vehicles in phalanx clusters
Goliath Scorpion
I like their approach to organization but they use no vehicles.
Hell's Horses
The leaders in Combat vehicles utilize them in every cluster formation type.
Ice Hellions
Only utilized in Flurry clusters which tend to be disdained
Jade Falcons
No combat vehicles
Nova Cats
Combat vehicles being reserved for Solahmna units only
Smoke Jaguars
....Unknown surprising little information on Sarna about them. I would think no besides Solahmna units as well but possible.
Snow Ravens
Utilize stars of combat vehicles in some 2nd line clusters
Star Adders
Each Galaxy Commander has their own Command Trinary with two to three Support Trinaries, mostly conventional artillery. Gatekeeper clusters composed largely of conventional armor.
Steel Viper
Combat vehicles are used by second-line clusters, they are not common.
Wolf
Surprised to see nothing mentioned about Combat Vehicles besides a mention then of rogue formations consisting of Artillery support
After posting this I just saw Takiro posted this earlier in the thread lol
Combat Vehicle Roles 3052
Blood Spirit – Front Line (1)
Burrock – Solhama (3)
Cloud Cobra – Second Line (2)
Coyote – Solhama (3)
Diamond Shark – Solhama (3)
Fire Mandrill – varies; Kindraa Payne and Kline use Vehicles
Ghost Bear – Second Line (2)
Goliath Scorpion – Solhama (3)
Hell's Horses – Front Line (1)
Ice Hellion – Flurry (3)
Jade Falcon – Non-Combatant (4)
Nova Cat – Solhama (3)
Smoke Jaguar – Solhama (3)
Snow Raven – Second Line (2)
Star Adder – Second Line (2)
Steel Viper – Solhama (3)
Wolf – Solhama (3)
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Spot on with the thoughts on Horses, possibly using sibkos trained together for crews which is different than other clans that seem to separate sibkos after achieving warrior status.
This makes sense what with the Horses "We all lift together!" mindset they push out for training and doctrine which emphasises teamwork and the like but unlike the Bears its not family its more a case of just good military sense.
And yeah the Spirits stay true to the Great Father's intent, but this basically has them in this situation because they follow the wording, whilst everyone else basically follows the spirit and although it means they are doing nothing wrong..
(https://i.imgflip.com/12ic6x.jpg?a426312)
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Combat Vehicle Roles 3052
Blood Spirit – Front Line (1)
Burrock – Solhama (3)
Cloud Cobra – Second Line (2)
Coyote – Solhama (3)
Diamond Shark – Solhama (3)
Fire Mandrill – varies; Kindraa Payne and Kline use Vehicles
Ghost Bear – Second Line (2)
Goliath Scorpion – Solhama (3)
Hell's Horses – Front Line (1)
Ice Hellion – Flurry (3)
Jade Falcon – Non-Combatant (4)
Nova Cat – Solhama (3)
Smoke Jaguar – Solhama (3)
Snow Raven – Second Line (2)
Star Adder – Second Line (2)
Steel Viper – Solhama (3)
Wolf – Solhama (3)
Good stuff guys, i never did a post Quicksilver (3054) listing of the Clans and it should be a priority.
Blood Spirit - rapidly upgrading their front line vehicle forces along with their Mech forces has left this Clan indebted to the Diamond Sharks in particular who are part of the growing Wolf-Star Adder alliance drawing the Clans closer together. They likely remain the second biggest users of OmniVehicles.
Burrock - one the birthplaces of the Reactionary Foresaken philosophy the Clan decomissioned all vehicle units even solhama insisting they are entirely outmoded in modern day warfare. Noting the frequent changes in the Burrock TO&E over the years critics say it is only a matter of time before they change back.
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Spot on with the thoughts on Horses, possibly using sibkos trained together for crews which is different than other clans that seem to separate sibkos after achieving warrior status.
This makes sense what with the Horses "We all lift together!" mindset they push out for training and doctrine which emphasises teamwork and the like but unlike the Bears its not family its more a case of just good military sense.
And yeah the Spirits stay true to the Great Father's intent, but this basically has them in this situation because they follow the wording, whilst everyone else basically follows the spirit and although it means they are doing nothing wrong..
Haha very apropos my take was similar
(https://www.drovers.com/sites/default/files/styles/featured_banner/public/2016_2_28-Circle-the-Wagons-300x171.jpg?itok=DkyaqmOp)
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My thoughts
Combat Vehicle Roles 3054
Blood Spirit – Front Line (1)
Burrock – Second Line (2) (since they change so much would like to see them with X2 binary "Mech x1 binary aero x 1 binary vehicle x1 binary infantry/battlearmor)
Cloud Cobra – Solhama (3)
Coyote – Non-Combatant (4)
Diamond Shark – Second Line (2)
Fire Mandrill – varies; Kindraa Payne and Kline Second Line (2) others Solhama (3)
Ghost Bear – Second Line (2)
Goliath Scorpion – Solhama (3)
Hell's Horses – Front Line (1)
Ice Hellion – Second Line (2)
Jade Falcon – Non-Combatant (4)
Nova Cat – Solhama (3)
Smoke Jaguar – Solhama (3)
Snow Raven – Second Line (2)
Star Adder – Front Line (1)* Limited to Artillery support for all Galaxies and Binaries of the new OmniVehicles going into Armored Calvary Clusters. 2nd line still would make use of the majority of them.
Steel Viper – Non-Combatant (4)
Wolf – Second Line (2)
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Combat Vehicle Roles 3052
Blood Spirit – Front Line (1)
Burrock – Solhama (3)
Cloud Cobra – Second Line (2)
Coyote – Solhama (3)
Diamond Shark – Solhama (3)
Fire Mandrill – varies; Kindraa Payne and Kline use Vehicles
Ghost Bear – Second Line (2)
Goliath Scorpion – Solhama (3)
Hell's Horses – Front Line (1)
Ice Hellion – Flurry (3)
Jade Falcon – Non-Combatant (4)
Nova Cat – Solhama (3)
Smoke Jaguar – Solhama (3)
Snow Raven – Second Line (2)
Star Adder – Second Line (2)
Steel Viper – Solhama (3)
Wolf – Solhama (3)
Combat Vehicle Roles 3054 (post-Quicksilver)
Blood Spirit – Front Line (1)
Burrock – foresaken (N/A)
Cloud Cobra – Second Line (2)
Coyote – Solhama (3)
Diamond Shark – Front Line (1)
Fire Mandrill – varies by Kindraa, second line to foresaken
Ghost Bear – Second Line (2)
Goliath Scorpion – Solhama (3)
Hell's Horses – Front Line (1)
Ice Hellion – Front Line (1)
Jade Falcon – Solhama (3)
Nova Cat – Solhama (3)
Smoke Jaguar – foresaken (N/A)
Snow Raven – Second Line (2)
Star Adder – Front Line (1)
Steel Viper – Second Line (2)
Wolf – Front Line (1)
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I dont see how burrock goes foresaken they dont have the capacity to remove all the vehicles rhey are using in canon to remove them all. All signs in canon point to them having a large force of them in the star adder absorption.
Coyote seems to posh to use them as the creators of omnimechs and all plus canon says they only use them to dishonor opponents
Why do you think jade falcon starts using them now they didnt in canon and thats still after falcon and wolf war
Can smoke jaguar not use them or are you saying protomechs cause even them not to use anymore
Wolf jumping all the to frontline surprised me even with using omnivehicles, diamond shark didn't because they were mauled much worse then wolves. Is ian hawker still there khan or are you replacing him he is
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Burrock is more of a story drivem decision and besides the Clan frequently changes its equipment preferences. I will say they probably stored this outdated equipment in Brian Caches rather than scrap it.
Coyote is a bit of a weird split to me as their obviously Mechwarriors first but they do use Solhama Vehicle formations. I suppose the Foresaken philosophy has its adherents here among their traditionalists factions but with the Technologist rise i think they'd like to research just about any innovation including OmniVehicles.
Butterfly wings, spurred on alternate events in certain cases. Jade Falcons gets into Vehicles more as a result of the Huey and Zorya upgrades. Plus the need to patrol their Occupation Zone has spurred them along too.
The Jaguars are haters bud plus saKhan Motizima has boosted the profile of aerospace fighters in this traditional Mech Clan. Don't forget that Osis is an Elemental as well which boosts their profile as well among the Clan. Largely they have borrowed from their Navy to restore their ground forces.
Wolf is less surprising if you consider Natasha and Phelan are leading them. Plus the Wolf touman is really not that big in comparison to other Clans. OmniVehicles will give them a nice boost plus most line clusters are only fielding a star (10) to begin with. That is a third of the commitment that Hell's Horses and Blood Spirit traditional field (30 vehicles).
Diamond Shark is rebuilding under Khan Jonathon Clarke following the Battle of Nyserta which we did out. Typically the Sharks field 4 clusrers per galaxy but they have 6 trinaries a piece (plus 1 to tradional clan style).
Ice Hellion also is rebuilding after the Reckoning and OmniVehicles are providing all these Clans a boost. Star Adder is not commenting on where its forces are redeploying... ;)
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Star Adder is not commenting on where its forces are redeploying... ;)
These Adders, always unwilling to publicly comment anything.