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Takiro

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2011, 05:52:41 PM »

Agreed Gabe, some nice input here.

Armor is a tricky thing when it comes to BT vehicles Dread Moores. It crits pretty easily especially when you compare vehicles to Mechs. Actually it is another good reason to have a turret in my mind cause you retain some type of mobility with your weaponry if you blow a tread or jam a turret. But enough spin on that I just might trade ammo for armor on the Farslayer because ideal it isn't suppose to be in range of too much.

I'm curious though what you might recommend for the Hellfire (Sniper) and Landsweeper (Thumper) designs.

Ronin I'm not sure I'd use the word mainstay to describe its manufacture or deployment. Numbers of all three of these Arty Tanks are unlikely to crack more than a company per armor regiment. This is some pretty specialized equipment and isn't likely to be cost effective as the core of a new AFFC Tank Corps. Additionally the reasons you point out are pretty good for why this is so.

Likely I will build off the Desert Knights (Patton and Rommel) adding two more designs (Montgomery and Bradley) made by Federated Suns manufacturer in association with Defiance to achieve that. These will be upgraded with new main guns (Ultra AC/5, Gauss, ER PPC, and LB-10X respectively) and other high tech refits. I'm sure a few other designs will fill in the gaps.  ;)

Question; would these Arty Tanks (Farslayer, Hellfire and Landsweeper) qualify as old school Tank Destroyers circa WW2?
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Gabriel

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2011, 05:59:08 PM »

They might have to do a little research.
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Gabriel

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2011, 06:14:59 PM »

I have only done a quick scan on tank destroyers but so far they fit the general parameters but I still am researching
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Blacknova

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2011, 06:40:57 PM »

Nice design, but if it was me, I'd drop the 3 mediums and the small and add 3 MG sharing a ton of ammo and add more ammo for the main gun.  Design a support tank and deploy them in lances of three with s ingle close range support vehicle.
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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2011, 06:46:33 PM »

Yes You do DM  Ronin nice work

Thank you

Ronin I'm not sure I'd use the word mainstay to describe its manufacture or deployment. Numbers of all three of these Arty Tanks are unlikely to crack more than a company per armor regiment. This is some pretty specialized equipment and isn't likely to be cost effective as the core of a new AFFC Tank Corps. Additionally the reasons you point out are pretty good for why this is so.

Ah, ok, my mistake then. That way it makes sense.  :)

Quote
Likely I will build off the Desert Knights (Patton and Rommel) adding two more designs (Montgomery and Bradley) made by Federated Suns manufacturer in association with Defiance to achieve that. These will be upgraded with new main guns (Ultra AC/5, Gauss, ER PPC, and LB-10X respectively) and other high tech refits. I'm sure a few other designs will fill in the gaps.  ;)

Good choice! The Patton/Rommel chassis is one of the best to base a MBT on. Personally, I really like the LB-10X as a main tank gun.

Quote
Question; would these Arty Tanks (Farslayer, Hellfire and Landsweeper) qualify as old school Tank Destroyers circa WW2?

I'd say they're similar enough to the american and british Tank Destroyers.
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Dread Moores

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2011, 06:53:13 PM »

Armor is a tricky thing when it comes to BT vehicles Dread Moores. It crits pretty easily especially when you compare vehicles to Mechs. Actually it is another good reason to have a turret in my mind cause you retain some type of mobility with your weaponry if you blow a tread or jam a turret. But enough spin on that I just might trade ammo for armor on the Farslayer because ideal it isn't suppose to be in range of too much.

Either way works honestly. I think it'll really just come down to personal preference on this point (more armor or more ammo).

I'm curious though what you might recommend for the Hellfire (Sniper) and Landsweeper (Thumper) designs.

This is where I would start looking at existing artillery tanks, since there are more tanks using Thumpers and Snipers. If we start there, you have the Thor as one example. A 5/8 tank with a Thumper, 2 tons of ammo, and enough armor to take an AC/20 anywhere and a Heavy Gauss in the important locations. (It also has a turret, but not for the artillery piece). My own experiences talking here, but I've found that 5/8 to be very important with direct fire. It lets you get that magic +6 or +7 to hit modifier, while returning fire with only a +1 or +2 (not including terrain or other concerns with either number). Ideally, you're firing at between 15 to 17 hexes (long range for the majority of weaponry) and you're getting 5 or 7 hexes of movement at least. So on direct fire, you're getting 15 points of damage to a hex with say a +2 for your shot. That's more than enough to give a very bad day to many non-assault combat vehicles, most medium (or lower) Mechs, and wipe out virtually all infantry and battle armor available at this time (presuming open hexes for infantry and no damage divisor). The enemy is shooting back on that +6 or +7 and you have respectable armor. Keep that Thor protected with some infantry or smaller vehicles, and you can do this for quite a while, all at a relatively low cost and BV. So, if you're looking at Thumper vehicles, I would use that Thor as a baseline. If you increase weight, I'd still strongly recommend keeping 5/8 as the speed. That really is a sweet spot for your "light" artillery vehicle. If you have tonnage to spare, look at getting the Thumper in a turret and increasing armor/ammo without losing ground speed.

Snipers? Well, let's take a look at the Marskman then. 4/6, very reliable armor on the front, and weak armor elsewhere. However, since it doesn't have a turret, it's not as likely to see those side/rear shots if it is well protected and kept at the ideal range. Again, you're looking to keep the enemy shooting at you on a +5 or +6, while you're returning fire on a +1 or +2. That means 15 to 17 hexes again, so you can return accurate 20 point shots. Yes, that 20 points will be scattered around in groups of five. Don't worry about that. Guided artillery (Copperheads/Arrow IV guided) get a lot of love from the player base in Battletech, but it often makes players blind to the power of direct-fire artillery. It really is quite spectacular when used well, even if it in NO WAY resembles real world artillery. 20 points of damage (in the case of the Sniper) is being dealt to your opponents at one shot, for low BV, with a lower rate of succesful return fire. That 20 points of damage can also affect multiple targets in one hex, multiple hexes, and will do uniform damage to all infantry and battle armor. All of this without the need for a TAGger. Battletech and reality parted ways back in the early 1980's. If you're looking for changes on the Marksman, it's pretty much the same hear. Increase weight (or save weight) but keep the speed at 4/6 and put free tonnage into armor/ammo/defensive systems. Anti-missile systems and Guardian are never an awful idea here (particularly if you use the Ghost Targets rule).

There's three other key points to remember about direct-fire artillery:

1. Never ever get closer than 12 hexes. In fact, if you've let the enemy get closer than 15 hexes, you've already exposed yourself to a lot of unnecessary danger. If you can't reach them from 15 hexes (due to terrain, smoke, whatever) than just pop indirect shots and hope for the best. As soon as you lose that long range modifier for opponents shooting at you, you're in serious trouble.

2. Don't ever forget to load some cluster artillery rounds, if you have ammo tonnage to spare and access to this munition type. This stuff is near broken. Sure, you lose some damage. But you gain the ability to use the "Shots from Above" hit locations table. It's downright scary against Mechs.

3. Never underestimate the power of improved Gunnery skills when it comes to direct fire artillery. While it seems like the BV investment isn't often worth it for some units, the low BV on many artillery units will help absorb some of the cost. Most importantly though, that improved Gunnery pays off immensely when it comes to indirect shots (and even direct fire shots). Even if you only successfully land one or two shells (let alone one or two salvos combined from several different artillery vehicles), those 15 or 20 or 25 point shots can turn the tide of the battle in your favor if you manage to land them in heavy traffic.

Edit: Something I just remembered, and should mention as well. My experience with artillery has often found the small guns to be the most effective in terms of BV versus effectiveness. That Thor really is a beauty of a direct fire vehicle. Enough armor to soak one or two rounds of heavy fire, but it gets that great +2/+3 movement modifier. You can cram three of these plus a protective unit in for 2.5 to 3K BV, and you now have three Gauss Rifles with a slightly shorter range (17 hexes for direct fire) that hit multiple targets and multiple hexes in a single shot and effectively ignore all range and movement modifiers. That means for the BV of many Clan heavies (and even some mediums) you have three super-duper targeting computer powered Gauss Rifles that are going to be a pain to hit back.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 07:00:20 PM by Dread Moores »
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Dread Moores

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2011, 06:55:26 PM »

Nice design, but if it was me, I'd drop the 3 mediums and the small and add 3 MG sharing a ton of ammo and add more ammo for the main gun.  Design a support tank and deploy them in lances of three with s ingle close range support vehicle.

Also a good choice. I know those heat sinks seem like they're wasted, but direct fire artillery ideally should never be worrying about using anything but its massive battle cannon. Sticking something like a Partisan (for air defense) or even a hidden SRM carrier (for close range defense) can be a very unwelcome surprise for the poor opponent who decides to headhunt your artillery with mechanized infantry or VTOLs.
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Takiro

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2011, 07:12:37 PM »

Thanks guys, more great input here.

Nice design, but if it was me, I'd drop the 3 mediums and the small and add 3 MG sharing a ton of ammo and add more ammo for the main gun.  Design a support tank and deploy them in lances of three with s ingle close range support vehicle.

Appreciate the suggestion Blacknova but if I was going for the optimized design wouldn't Small Lasers do the same as Machine Guns without the ammo? I completely agree with your deployment strategy although I might go with two Farslayers and two support vehicles that could vary on terrain, mission type, and unit specialization.

Ah, ok, my mistake then. That way it makes sense.  :)

No need to apologize Ronin. Might have misled you with my original post and in that a new AFFC Tank Corps is my goal. Many designs and different approaches. I'm throwing stuff up against the wall here and seeing what sticks.

Good choice! The Patton/Rommel chassis is one of the best to base a MBT on. Personally, I really like the LB-10X as a main tank gun.

Then you will like the Bradley sir!

This is where I would start looking at existing artillery tanks, since there are more tanks using Thumpers and Snipers. If we start there, you have the Thor as one example. A 5/8 tank with a Thumper, 2 tons of ammo, and enough armor to take an AC/20 anywhere and a Heavy Gauss in the important locations. (It also has a turret, but not for the artillery piece). My own experiences talking here, but I've found that 5/8 to be very important with direct fire. It lets you get that magic +6 or +7 to hit modifier, while returning fire with only a +1 or +2 (not including terrain or other concerns with either number). Ideally, you're firing at between 15 to 17 hexes (long range for the majority of weaponry) and you're getting 5 or 7 hexes of movement at least. So on direct fire, you're getting 15 points of damage to a hex with say a +2 for your shot. That's more than enough to give a very bad day to many non-assault combat vehicles, most medium (or lower) Mechs, and wipe out virtually all infantry and battle armor available at this time (presuming open hexes for infantry and no damage divisor). The enemy is shooting back on that +6 or +7 and you have respectable armor. Keep that Thor protected with some infantry or smaller vehicles, and you can do this for quite a while, all at a relatively low cost and BV. So, if you're looking at Thumper vehicles, I would use that Thor as a baseline. If you increase weight, I'd still strongly recommend keeping 5/8 as the speed. That really is a sweet spot for your "light" artillery vehicle. If you have tonnage to spare, look at getting the Thumper in a turret and increasing armor/ammo without losing ground speed.

Snipers? Well, let's take a look at the Marskman then. 4/6, very reliable armor on the front, and weak armor elsewhere. However, since it doesn't have a turret, it's not as likely to see those side/rear shots if it is well protected and kept at the ideal range. Again, you're looking to keep the enemy shooting at you on a +5 or +6, while you're returning fire on a +1 or +2. That means 15 to 17 hexes again, so you can return accurate 20 point shots. Yes, that 20 points will be scattered around in groups of five. Don't worry about that. Guided artillery (Copperheads/Arrow IV guided) get a lot of love from the player base in Battletech, but it often makes players blind to the power of direct-fire artillery. It really is quite spectacular when used well, even if it in NO WAY resembles real world artillery. 20 points of damage (in the case of the Sniper) is being dealt to your opponents at one shot, for low BV, with a lower rate of succesful return fire. That 20 points of damage can also affect multiple targets in one hex, multiple hexes, and will do uniform damage to all infantry and battle armor. All of this without the need for a TAGger. Battletech and reality parted ways back in the early 1980's. If you're looking for changes on the Marksman, it's pretty much the same hear. Increase weight (or save weight) but keep the speed at 4/6 and put free tonnage into armor/ammo/defensive systems. Anti-missile systems and Guardian are never an awful idea here (particularly if you use the Ghost Targets rule).

There's three other key points to remember about direct-fire artillery:

1. Never ever get closer than 12 hexes. In fact, if you've let the enemy get closer than 15 hexes, you've already exposed yourself to a lot of unnecessary danger. If you can't reach them from 15 hexes (due to terrain, smoke, whatever) than just pop indirect shots and hope for the best. As soon as you lose that long range modifier for opponents shooting at you, you're in serious trouble.

2. Don't ever forget to load some cluster artillery rounds, if you have ammo tonnage to spare and access to this munition type. This stuff is near broken. Sure, you lose some damage. But you gain the ability to use the "Shots from Above" hit locations table. It's downright scary against Mechs.

3. Never underestimate the power of improved Gunnery skills when it comes to direct fire artillery. While it seems like the BV investment isn't often worth it for some units, the low BV on many artillery units will help absorb some of the cost. Most importantly though, that improved Gunnery pays off immensely when it comes to indirect shots (and even direct fire shots). Even if you only successfully land one or two shells (let alone one or two salvos combined from several different artillery vehicles), those 15 or 20 or 25 point shots can turn the tide of the battle in your favor if you manage to land them in heavy traffic.

Edit: Something I just remembered, and should mention as well. My experience with artillery has often found the small guns to be the most effective in terms of BV versus effectiveness. That Thor really is a beauty of a direct fire vehicle. Enough armor to soak one or two rounds of heavy fire, but it gets that great +2/+3 movement modifier. You can cram three of these plus a protective unit in for 2.5 to 3K BV, and you now have three Gauss Rifles with a slightly shorter range (17 hexes for direct fire) that hit multiple targets and multiple hexes in a single shot and effectively ignore all range and movement modifiers. That means for the BV of many Clan heavies (and even some mediums) you have three super-duper targeting computer powered Gauss Rifles that are going to be a pain to hit back.

Some real good advice DM. I'm trying to get to the 5/8 threshold with a few of these tanks but it is difficult even with XL Engines. 4/6 is looking more realistic but I shall give it my all. Was thinking of an 80 ton design for the Hellfire and Landsweeper but we shall see.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 07:13:36 PM by Takiro »
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Takiro

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2011, 07:43:48 PM »

Ok, DM I took your advice on the lightest of these designs and tried to combine the Farslayer and the Thor concepts. What do you think?

Code: [Select]
Landsweeper class Light Artillery Tank

Mass: 50 tons
Technology Base: InnerSphere Level 2
Crew: 4
Movement Type: Tracked

Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5
Engine: 250 Magna Fusion 19
Cruising MP: 5
Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks: 10 0
Control Equipment: 2.5
Turret: 1.5
Armor Factor: Ferro-Fibrous 81 4.5

Area Internal Structure Armor Value
Front 5 25
Right/Left Side 5 15/15
Rear 5 11
Turret 5 15

Weapons and Ammo: Location Mass
Thumper Artillery Piece Turret 15
Ammo (Thumper) 40 Body 2
CASE Body .5
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Dread Moores

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2011, 08:23:58 PM »

It looks like a cheap artillery vehicle that uses the tech in 3050 well. That means it does it much better than TRO 3050 did, which is a very good thing. ;)

It fits the timeline well, the fluff, and uses a bit more advanced tech than the Thor, while dropping the secondary weapons. Overall, I'd say it certainly fits what you're looking for fluff wise, the mechanics work well, and it gets some modernized artillery to the field quickly without too high of a cost.  8) I think it looks great. The more important question is: Are you happy with it? I can offer opinions, but in the end, it really doesn't matter what I think if you're unhappy with it.

I realize you're looking to keep to mostly canon early 3050's tech, but if you do decide to make any changes for an AU, I'd look to fuel cell engines. Fuel cell engines becoming the "new ICE" for the more modern Successor States (like the FedCom) is a huge deal. If you do decide to make any changes, fuel cells are the one thing to allow. They alone make such a drastic improvement to so many ICE vehicles that much of the other advanced tech isn't even necessary.

Edit: This is actually a great example of the difference between the heavier and lighter artillery weapons. When you're at a Thumper, it really is far more often beneficial to go for speed over armor. Keep the range, and the speed will be your armor. The key with something like this is to be aware of your speed. If you can't get the +2 or +3 movement mod, then get behind cover and just go indirect that turn. Never be afraid to resort to hiding and firing indirectly.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2011, 08:26:24 PM by Dread Moores »
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Gabriel

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2011, 08:26:36 PM »

Nice work
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Takiro

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2011, 09:15:08 PM »

It looks like a cheap artillery vehicle that uses the tech in 3050 well. That means it does it much better than TRO 3050 did, which is a very good thing. ;)

It fits the timeline well, the fluff, and uses a bit more advanced tech than the Thor, while dropping the secondary weapons. Overall, I'd say it certainly fits what you're looking for fluff wise, the mechanics work well, and it gets some modernized artillery to the field quickly without too high of a cost.  8) I think it looks great. The more important question is: Are you happy with it? I can offer opinions, but in the end, it really doesn't matter what I think if you're unhappy with it.

I realize you're looking to keep to mostly canon early 3050's tech, but if you do decide to make any changes for an AU, I'd look to fuel cell engines. Fuel cell engines becoming the "new ICE" for the more modern Successor States (like the FedCom) is a huge deal. If you do decide to make any changes, fuel cells are the one thing to allow. They alone make such a drastic improvement to so many ICE vehicles that much of the other advanced tech isn't even necessary.

Edit: This is actually a great example of the difference between the heavier and lighter artillery weapons. When you're at a Thumper, it really is far more often beneficial to go for speed over armor. Keep the range, and the speed will be your armor. The key with something like this is to be aware of your speed. If you can't get the +2 or +3 movement mod, then get behind cover and just go indirect that turn. Never be afraid to resort to hiding and firing indirectly.

It fits nicely with what I was trying to do but I was picturing more. Maybe a few secondary weapons and more armor but heavier weights and even XL Engines don't work so in the end it is growing on me. It feels like a nice step up from the Thor and the AFFC could use it.

The renamed Sharpshooter will fall in between the first two mounting a Sniper going 4/6 and likely being 75 tons.
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Red Pins

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2011, 09:29:40 PM »

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Red Pins mind is as smooth as a Swiss clock. That is what I like in my compatriots outside the box thinking. Now if we could just the politicans to think like that and not what they can do for themselves the world would run better.

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Gabriel

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2011, 09:54:13 PM »

Now to ship the blueprints to detroit so they can be built. LMAO   :D ;D ;) :) ::)
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Dread Moores

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Re: Tank Building Philosophy
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2011, 01:56:38 AM »

It fits nicely with what I was trying to do but I was picturing more. Maybe a few secondary weapons and more armor but heavier weights and even XL Engines don't work so in the end it is growing on me. It feels like a nice step up from the Thor and the AFFC could use it.

The renamed Sharpshooter will fall in between the first two mounting a Sniper going 4/6 and likely being 75 tons.

Trust me, I think the same exact thing every time I look at artillery vehicles, whether canon or my own designs. But my experiences with artillery in the game have helped me realize that artillery units need to make that sacrifice and dedicate themselves to artillery, if you have any intention at all of direct-fire usage. Get the gun on the field and get the direct fire shell on target. That is the sole job of front-line field guns in Battletech. (In the real world? I don't have the faintest clue how artillery should work.  ;D) But in BT, if you're going direct fire, then skip most of the secondaries (and if you have tonnage, just get yourself some defensive systems or machine guns which equally well to crit vehicles or kill infantry). Just get that gun out there cheap, and get it firing.

Now the flip to side that is indirect firing. If you're dedicating your artillery vehicle to indirect firing, then go the Schiltron route. Make it expensive, give it the best toys, and give it everything you can to protect it. Once you've sunk in the resources and BV for TAG, homing ammo, and the rest...well, your investment is substantial by that point. You may as well go big or go home at that point.

There are two big problems with canon artillery vehicles. Many of them focus on Arrow IV, which my personal experience has led me to question that system's value. Sure, it sounds great, but it requires serious investment of resources, tonnage, BV, and cost. By the time you use it (and it often gets paired), most players look to homing rounds. That requires further BV for the spotter, then additional BV for the homing ammo/TAG combo. The value of the artillery guns are the ability to get big boomers on the field on the cheap. It doesn't help that many of the Arrow IV vehicles are often slow and lacking armor to handle direct fire. You've now pigeonholed your artillery into being the folks in the rear with the gear. While it's probably realistic, it doesn't work out near as well in an actual game of Battletech. You want your artillery to bring versatility, which better allows you to surprise your opponent. By the way, I think your designs will do exactly that.  8)

That's probably the most important distinction to make when designing artillery vehicles for me. "Do I forsee this unit firing directly with any regularity?" If yes, then slab on that armor and ideally get it the speed. Skip all the rest, unless tonnage is free. If no, then start grabbing the shiny toys. All this is just my opinion from my own experiences, so take that for whatever it's worth. :)
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