OBT Forum

I'd also go slower.  What purpose, other than military use, is served by the ship having 4/6 movement?  Hard to plead civil use for that, given that the standard cargo dropships only move 3/5.  Having a better engine makes it harder to deny that they're secretly built for military use.  That heavy armor doesn't help, either.

If you're trying to do "civilian design, but designed for conversion to military use" a la Hiyo or Chitose-class IJN carriers, you're going to have to make more plausible-deniability compromises, as was true for those ships.   

All right, points well taken.  Here is the 'standard' civilian Black Rose.

                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Black Rose (Cargo) 
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              410,000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Length:            544 meters
Sail Diameter:     990 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       2
Maximum Thrust:    3
Armor Type:        Improved Ferro-aluminum
Armament:         
   24 LRM 10
   16 Large Laser
   24 Medium Laser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
The Black Rose was a Draconis Combine ship that attempted to get around the
mandates of the Naval Arms Limitation Treaty by building a number of
'civilian' transport vessels.  Slow and lumbering, the Roses were nonetheless
well-liked by investors both foreign and domestic for their light armament of
standard-scale defensive weapons and thick armor plated hides.  Plus, these
ships had twice the docking collars of a Carrack, while internal cargo space
was increased.

Although the SLDF was convinced that the Kuritas were up to something,
extensive ship inspections revealed nothing.  All of the Roses produced were
civilian cargo ships, albeit ones with unusually thick structural members and
heavy armor plating.  Thirty-seven years after the Roses began production, the
SLDF finally relaxed and accepted that the Roses were simply cargo ships.  And
that is when the Dragon acted.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Black Rose (Cargo) 
Mass:              410,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                       49,200.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 2
      Maximum Thrust: 3
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 9)                185,525.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 4)                                              50.00
Structural Integrity: 40                                            16,400.00
Total Heat Sinks:    358 Single                                           .00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                  14,513.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:              1,025.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   .00
Food & Water:  (360 days supply)                                       648.00
Armor Type:  Improved Ferro-aluminum  (221 total armor pts)            328.00
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                 40
   Fore-Left/Right:                   40/40
   Aft-Left/Right:                    40/40
   Aft:                                  21

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Small Craft (6) with 6 doors                              1,200.00
   Bay 2:  Cargo (1) with 4 doors                                   56,698.00
   Bay 3:  Cargo (1) with 4 doors                                   56,500.00

DropShip Capacity:  4 Docking Hardpoints                             4,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 2:  (95-meter diameter)                                100.00
Escape Pods:  60 (7 tons each)                                         420.00

Crew and Passengers:
     23 Officers (23 minimum)                                          230.00
    104 Crew (104 minimum)                                             728.00
     11 Gunners (11 minimum)                                            77.00
    192 2nd Class Passengers                                         1,344.00
     30 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 LRM 10(120 rounds)       Nose     2(18)  2(18)  2(18)     --   12     25.00
2 Large Laser              Nose     2(16)  2(16)     --     --   16     10.00
3 Medium Laser             Nose     2(15)     --     --     --    9      3.00
3 LRM 10(120 rounds)       FL/R     2(18)  2(18)  2(18)     --   24     50.00
2 Large Laser              FL/R     2(16)  2(16)     --     --   32     20.00
3 Medium Laser             FL/R     2(15)     --     --     --   18      6.00
3 LRM 10(120 rounds)       L/RBS    2(18)  2(18)  2(18)     --   24     50.00
2 Large Laser              L/RBS    2(16)  2(16)     --     --   32     20.00
3 Medium Laser             L/RBS    2(15)     --     --     --   18      6.00
3 LRM 10(120 rounds)       AL/R     2(18)  2(18)  2(18)     --   24     50.00
2 Large Laser              AL/R     2(16)  2(16)     --     --   32     20.00
3 Medium Laser             AL/R     2(15)     --     --     --   18      6.00
3 LRM 10(120 rounds)       Aft      2(18)  2(18)  2(18)     --   12     25.00
2 Large Laser              Aft      2(16)  2(16)     --     --   16     10.00
3 Medium Laser             Aft      2(15)     --     --     --    9      3.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (5.00%)                                           20,500.00
30 Bay Personnel Quarters                                              210.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                              Heat: 296     410,000.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        4,796,697,024 C-Bills
Battle Value:      22,704
Cost per BV:       211,271.01
Weapon Value:      10,880 (Ratio = .48)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 359;  MRV = 196;  LRV = 40;  ERV = 0
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 131,069
                   (38,385 Structure, 85,752 Life Support, 6,932 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 305,325  (233% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      Not applicable

And the converted Q-Ship model.

                    AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
                                  VALIDATED

Class/Model/Name:  Black Rose (Q-Ship) 
Tech:              Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type:       WarShip
Rules:             Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set:         AeroTech2

Mass:              410,000 tons
K-F Drive System:  (Unknown)
Length:            544 meters
Sail Diameter:     990 meters
Power Plant:       Standard
Safe Thrust:       2
Maximum Thrust:    3
Armor Type:        Improved Ferro-aluminum
Armament:         
   16 Killer Whale
   24 Medium NPPC
   24 LRM 10
   16 Large Laser
   24 Medium Laser
    6 NAC/20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
Individual Black Rose-class vessels were taken to a secret facility deep in
the interior of the Combine and refitted into powerful clandestine men o' war.
 Capital weapons were installed behind blow-out panels, which allowed the
commanders of these ships to surprise their foes by suddenly revealing
gun-ports on the sides of the ship, where before there had only been armored
plating.

The six flank arcs each carried two Killer Whale missile launchers (with 30
missiles each, equipped to carry both standard and nuclear warheads), three
Medium Naval PPCs, and one NAC-20 (with 50 shots each), in addition to the
standard-scale weapons which remained obvious.  The bow and stern each
eliminated the NAC-20 Naval Autocannon, but retained all other weapon
systems.

While technically no Marines were carried, in effect, Black Rose Q-Ships
normally carried 84 or more Marines in place of some or all of the passenger
spaces.  In order to preserve its cover as a cargo vessel, these Q-Ships
retained all four docking collars and the six small craft, as well as internal
cargo space for nearly 25,000 tons of cargo.  Although less than a quarter of
what the civilian model could carry, the DCA believed that a captain could
explain away the difference by simply stating that he was carrying sealed
cargo in the remaining holds for delivery elsewhere.

DCA Q-Ships tended to operate away from well-policed systems, waiting for the
orders that would send into heavily trafficed areas.  Once the Succession Wars
began, the Black Rose Q-Ships would approach a repair yard/orbital
station/ship yard facility, requesting permission to berth with a load of
whatever cargo the facility needed.  When they had closed to point-blank
range, the Q-Ship would blows its exterior panels and unleash its weapons to
savage the unsuspecting facility.  The also participated in nuclear first
strikes against shipyards and ground-based factories or production centers.

But it was their very success that doomed the Black Rose class to extinction.
Only about a third of all Black Roses produced by the DCA were ever converted
into Q-Ships, but once the Great Houses realized what the Dragon had done,
they began to shoot any Black Rose on sight.  Scores of innocent cargo ships
were blown out of space in an attempt to deny the Dragon this treacherous
option.

By the start of the 2nd Succession War, only three Black Rose Q-Ships remained
operational--within a decade, all three had been destroyed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name:  Black Rose (Q-Ship) 
Mass:              410,000 tons

Equipment:                                                            Mass 
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                                       49,200.00
Thrust:  Safe Thrust: 2
      Maximum Thrust: 3
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive:  Compact (Integrity = 9)                185,525.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 4)                                              50.00
Structural Integrity: 40                                            16,400.00
Total Heat Sinks:    4,216 Single                                    3,858.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps:                                                  14,513.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters:              1,025.00
Fire Control Computers:                                                   .00
Food & Water:  (360 days supply)                                       648.00
Armor Type:  Improved Ferro-aluminum  (221 total armor pts)            328.00
                           Capital Scale Armor Pts
   Location:                            L / R
   Fore:                                 40
   Fore-Left/Right:                   40/40
   Aft-Left/Right:                    40/40
   Aft:                                  21

Cargo:
   Bay 1:  Small Craft (6) with 6 doors                              1,200.00
   Bay 2:  Cargo (1) with 4 doors                                   24,593.00

DropShip Capacity:  4 Docking Hardpoints                             4,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 2:  (95-meter diameter)                                100.00
Escape Pods:  60 (7 tons each)                                         420.00

Crew and Passengers:
     32 Officers (32 minimum)                                          320.00
     95 Crew (95 minimum)                                              665.00
     57 Gunners (57 minimum)                                           399.00
    146 2nd Class Passengers                                         1,022.00
     30 Bay Personnel                                                     .00
Weapons and Equipment      Loc        SRV    MRV    LRV    ERV  Heat    Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Killer Whale(60 msls)    Nose         8      8      8      8   40  3,300.00
3 Medium NPPC              Nose        27     27     27     27  405  5,400.00
3 LRM 10(120 rounds)       Nose     2(18)  2(18)  2(18)     --   12     25.00
2 Large Laser              Nose     2(16)  2(16)     --     --   16     10.00
3 Medium Laser             Nose     2(15)     --     --     --    9      3.00
2 Killer Whale(60 msls)    FL/R         8      8      8      8   80  6,600.00
3 Medium NPPC              FL/R        27     27     27     27  810 10,800.00
1 NAC/20(50 rounds)        FL/R        20     20     20     --  120  5,040.00
3 LRM 10(120 rounds)       FL/R     2(18)  2(18)  2(18)     --   24     50.00
2 Large Laser              FL/R     2(16)  2(16)     --     --   32     20.00
3 Medium Laser             FL/R     2(15)     --     --     --   18      6.00
2 Killer Whale(60 msls)    L/RBS        8      8      8      8   80  6,600.00
3 Medium NPPC              L/RBS       27     27     27     27  810 10,800.00
1 NAC/20(50 rounds)        L/RBS       20     20     20     --  120  5,040.00
3 LRM 10(120 rounds)       L/RBS    2(18)  2(18)  2(18)     --   24     50.00
2 Large Laser              L/RBS    2(16)  2(16)     --     --   32     20.00
3 Medium Laser             L/RBS    2(15)     --     --     --   18      6.00
2 Killer Whale(60 msls)    AL/R         8      8      8      8   80  6,600.00
3 Medium NPPC              AL/R        27     27     27     27  810 10,800.00
1 NAC/20(50 rounds)        AL/R        20     20     20     --  120  5,040.00
3 LRM 10(120 rounds)       AL/R     2(18)  2(18)  2(18)     --   24     50.00
2 Large Laser              AL/R     2(16)  2(16)     --     --   32     20.00
3 Medium Laser             AL/R     2(15)     --     --     --   18      6.00
2 Killer Whale(60 msls)    Aft          8      8      8      8   40  3,300.00
3 Medium NPPC              Aft         27     27     27     27  405  5,400.00
3 LRM 10(120 rounds)       Aft      2(18)  2(18)  2(18)     --   12     25.00
2 Large Laser              Aft      2(16)  2(16)     --     --   16     10.00
3 Medium Laser             Aft      2(15)     --     --     --    9      3.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (5.00%)                                           20,500.00
30 Bay Personnel Quarters                                              210.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                                            Heat: 4,216     410,000.00
Tons Left:                                                                .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        5,066,521,024 C-Bills
Battle Value:      93,073
Cost per BV:       54,435.99
Weapon Value:      30,573 (Ratio = .33)
Damage Factors:    SRV = 4,026;  MRV = 3,863;  LRV = 2,929;  ERV = 1,144
Maintenance:       Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 277,803
                   (37,499 Structure, 85,752 Life Support, 154,552 Weapons)
                   Support Points (SP) = 408,600  (147% of MPV)
BattleForce2:      Not applicable
Is that better, guys?  Oh, and Dragon Cat:  in Blood and Steel, the DCS Black Rose masqueraded as the Lyran freighter SS McQuiston's Pride in order to get down and dirty with the Oriente shipyards.  They then suicided with a nuclear scuttling charge, hoping that Philip Marik would blame Amaris (which he did) and draw the FWL into the War against the Usurper (which they did).  At the time in the story, the Combine has not yet unleashed its hidden force of Q-Ships, so no one suspected (or rather, has evidence) that it was the Dragon behind the attack and not Amaris.

Hope that answers the question.

MA

A much more convincing Q-ship.  The only complaint I have remaining is the ferro-aluminum armor, unless that's commonly available to civilian ships in your AU.  The armor is still heavy compared to, say, the Sylvester, but as the Sylvies are less well protected than most drop ships (or even the recent Jumbo cargo dropper), I'd say what you've got makes more sense in a war-torn world, even though there's no decent precedents for such heavy armor on a merchant ship in the real world.  If armor was carried, Q-ships might have actually been worth something. 

The revisions are good.

I like it and the expliantion of the name makes sense

Cheers