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Author Topic: Quicksilver Dropships  (Read 37481 times)

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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2018, 03:47:02 PM »

Well just lost a big section of typing here, damn it!

To sum up Newgrange's and their fate is a topic we should continue elsewhere. I feel that there are very few if any left probably in the hands of the Guild as a strategic resource to the Clans as a whole. Most likely went to establish a thriving space industry over the Pentagon which was likely slagged during the two decade Civil War there.

The Wolverine raid of the Norfolk boneyard also got me thinking that the Grand Council might entrust the mothball fleet to the Guild as a strategic resource for safekeeping. Not wanting to repeat the theft of some many warships by a Clan in the future and perhaps these vessels are deweaponized as well.

I get the sense too the Grand Council when they remember to are the ones who set policy for the Guild when they care to when the ilKhan isn't around which is most time. Of course the Loremaster of the Clans would have day to day authority if need be to reslove a situation.

Off topic again on tenders, again I agree with you on this. If you look at TRO2800 for Shattered Dawn we had Tenders (the Vulcan) as well as Hospital Ships (the Mercy) and a Tanker (the Catalyst) in addition to the Newgrange as service vessels for the SLDF.

Still have to look up our design numbers.

Back to the topic of Quicksilver Dropships I am working on the Keshig Project still whose objective was to build combined arms carriers for an entire Cluster and a third of a Cluster (Fortress like). However design creep and the Clans involved are giving me a bit of a problem. Here is some fluff from the Torguud

'While largely successful Operation Revival revealed certain weakness in Clan operations which ultimately led to defeat on Tukayyid. Nova Cat in particular realized that failure to upgrade their Dropship fleet could endanger their very existence. Often inserting their forces via “hot drops” created a distinct tactical advantage but left them vulnerable to enemy fighters. With the aerospace assets of the InnerSphere proving to be a highly competitive element the goal of creating an improved combined arms transport seemed to be a sensible investment of resources. With this objective in mind the Nova Cats together with Clan Steel Viper began the Keshig Project in June 3052. This was a variation of the ancient Mongolian Imperial Guard which many Clans had modeled their own bodyguard units on.'

Running out of time but what dropship areas do you think the Clans need to address after Tukayyid and how can the Free Guilds help??

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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2018, 04:54:23 PM »

Assault for sure the attacks on their dropships has some worried upgrade what star league ones that remain and possibly building new.

Are you going to do config changes to aerospace fighters? I think some might need changes like allowed for summoner as they reevaluate fighter tactics. (Meaning altering armor heat sinks)

Passenger ship Ghost Bear possibly for transportation to Is, working on something that may help address this

Mining/construction i mean how does Ghost bear have an edge in asteroid mining perhaps a cousin of Elephant

Colony ship??

Space variant of an AWACS or a command and control ship.

Dropships version of a bugeye perhaps

Was your hospital ship a dropship or warship, i dont think you ever showed me TRO 2800

I can see warships getting greater thought which is reason did the Sabrewing possibly even a frigate as well for galaxy deployment with heavy emphasis on antiaircraft. Clans need to get over turtle bay issues. Use them just dont target civies they have got to hear the rumors the houses are starting to get them now as well
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 05:53:06 PM by Bradshaw »
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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2018, 10:15:22 PM »

Also went with Dropships as a Steel Viper thing to account for their ownership of numerous dropship yards on Marshall and other places. Thought it could balance their naval disadvantage to Snow Raven with additional craft including the Noruff. Still have to compile a list of dropship facilities.

Let me see if the link for TRO 2800 is still available on this website.

It looks like it bud, bottom of the page under Shattered Dawn.

https://www.ourbattletech.com/downloads/
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 10:17:38 PM by Takiro »
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2018, 09:50:07 AM »

For the DropShip changes we need to layout what the drivers are for these changes and what the Clans would see as being needed to fix the problems they had.

For the Clans, the almost uniform problem (to a greater or lesser degree depending on the Clan) when taking part in REVIVAL was logistics.  As they didn't bring any factories forwards or even establish some supply points nearer the Inner Sphere, the Clans were operating on a supply chain roughly a year long and the Clans as a generalized whole seem to have about as good a grasp of Logistics as the Germans did during Operation Barbarossa (IE not much at best). 

The problem is that OTL the Clans have a VERY messed up DropShip fleet and is built as follows.


2 x Small raiding craft (Broadsword and Confederate) both of which have small cargo bays, no Elementals, and can only carry a Star of Mechs.
1 x Assault DropShip that is starting to enter production - Noruff.
1 x Dedicated infantry transport - Sassanid
1 x 'Standard' Mech carrier - Union-C but it carries no Elementals and carries a Trinary of Mechs.
1 x ASF carrier - Carrier - But it only carries 1 Star of Fighters (10)
1 x 'Combined arms' transport that can't carry vehicles and carries standard infantry in addition to 2 stars of Mechs - Lion
2 x Heavy carriers - Titan and Miraborg with the Miraborg being far better armed and more useful
1 x Heavy Mech carrier - Overlord-C, but again it lacks Elementals and carries a full Cluster of Mechs


The Clans for the most part do actually operate on a Combined arms aspect, with the close integration of Mechs and Elementals into their battle plans but there's NO combined arms transport for the two.  Instead you have to bring another dropper along to carry the Elementals whilst one carries the Mechs.  Logistically this causes problems.  You're using two dropships, with two crews and twice the fuel consumption to bring your Mechs and Elementals to a battle and whilst the bidding process might well mean you don't 'need' the Elementals or some Mechs and can bring Elementals instead, you've still not got the facilities on 90% of your DropShips for Elementals and going off the rules for what they can carry you HAVE to bring a Sassanid along with you regardless.

Miraborgs are brand new, barely 2 years old at this point and only produced by the Jaguars and they carry as many fighters as a Titan, have the same speed and are far better armed. The only advantage the Titan has is its armour and cargo capacity but the Miraborg is a far superior ship purely in terms of firepower. 

We don't know what cargo haulers the Clans use but we can assume they have Mules etc but we can IIC them or make the CargoKhan as was suggested.


But what I feel is needed is a series of true combined arms transports. The Clans have large jumpship fleets but reducing the number of Dropships to have a lesser number of larger and more capable dropships would help because then you don't need to bring 2 - 4 Dropships along to an attack.


because Lets be honest, a world isn't going to be threatened by a Confederate and a Carrier, a better defended world could require multiple Overlord and Union-C's and then you NEED to bring a Titan along otherwise you're going to be taking up precious docking collar space by having to spam Carrier's to match the carrying capacity of a Titan.  And who's to say that 30 fighters is enough?  It might well not be.
Sarna says ‘an average Cluster is two OmniMech Trinaries, an Elemental Binary, an OmniFighter Binary and either a mixed Trinary or a Supernova Trinary’
So that’s 2 x Union Cs, 1 x Sassanid, 2 x Carriers, and you might in theory need another Union-C for the ‘Supernova Trinary’.  This is a lot of ships and fuel, sure you can reduce that to a Overlord-C, 1 x Sassanid and 2 x Carriers but this then places all your Mech’s in a big egg shaped target and even then you’ve got to land them all together, have the Sassanid come down with the Unions or Overlord and this complicates things because there’s no way to ensure this happens. The landing zone could be contested, hostile ASF’s might force one to divert etc and it throws your landing out of whack.

So, what’s needed is to bring the Mech’s and infantry together. And this means going for Nova’s as a standard unit, or at least allowing for their use without having to rely on hauling a 3000 ton dropship around.

So my recommendation is the following

1 – Produce a ‘streched’ Broadsword that carries a Star of Mechs and up to a Star of Elementals
2 – Retire the Confederate and either scrap them or convert them to other roles, you don’t need two dropships the same size with the same small carrying capacity.
3 – Produce a Assault DropShip, the Spheroids have them, the history of the SLDF showed that Assault DropShips are useful (reunification war, Amaris war, Kerensky Cluster civil war, Klondike etc)
4 – Produce a Stretched Union C as your standard Mech carrier, allow it to carry its trinary of Mechs or covert it to a Nova so its got a trinary of Elementals aboard as well.
5 – Get the Jaguars to share the Miragborg design and produce in larger numbers, the Carrier is adequate at best for small unit actions but nothing more.
6 – Produce a true combined arms dropship.  This would be a larger vessel but it can bring at least a Trinary of Mechs to the party along with their own Elemental support and at least a Star of Fighters as well.
7- Replace the Lion, she’s really of little use, but could be used as a frame for Augmented Nova carrier (2 stars BA and Mech)
8 – The Overlord C needs to be able to carry Elementals as well as Mechs but it needs to be replaced with…
9 – Design a new large transport, A Colossus IIC that can bring a Clusters worth of Mechs with Elementals and Air support and this is to become your ‘standard’ heavy transport, slowly relegating the Overlord C to secondary roles.
10 – Reduce the Titans engine size to 4/6, modernize her weapons and see if you can cram more fighters onboard, that the Clans lack an equivalent of a Vengeance class is a serious oversight.

By using fewer but larger, more capable transports instead of many reduces fuel consumption, reduces crew requirements and frees up collars for other craft.
As an example of this, lets go back to our ‘typical’ Trinary and assume 3 x Union C, 2 x Carrier 1 x Sassanid.  This is 266 crew spread across 6 DropShips, each of which need fuel and supplies and the more small ships you have, the bigger the drain this is going to be as you’d have to supply fuel for more craft, requiring more dropships carrying fuel which requires more dropships and so on.

Whilst the savings in crew and food for them will at best be minimal if you was to use a single large dropship vs multiple smaller ones, the big saving comes in fuel.

But the greatest advantage is that you bring down your forces together in a single space and can deploy them from a single point. There’s no risk of getting separated or forced apart due to hostile action, weather or lack of suitable landing zones.  There’s also the advantage of security, a single dropship does not require so large a security perimeter whilst command and control is all there on the single larger vessel rather than spread out and this is the same for repair and resupply facilities.

The TLDR is that the Clans need smaller numbers of larger dropships, that way is more efficient, they need assault dropships as well and with the Spheroids starting to re-introduce WarShips, this means that the Clans can shrug off Edo Bay as an aberration and look forwards to fighting in space against a ‘real’ opponent.  And such large ships with their simply gargantuan cargo facilities make useful logistics hubs too.


Sorry for the stream of thought/conciousness!
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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2018, 10:30:53 AM »

Now that is a f-cking post baby!

I love it, largely combined arms was the objective of the Keshig Project but I ran headlong into differing Clan organizational styles when attempting it.

Steel Viper who has large dropship facilities and is well on their way to deploying the Noruff was a likely candidate for me but they have such odd organization (15 fighters to a Cluster and I think more Mechs but have to check)

The you have Goliath Scorpion Mixed Service Trinaries…...

Nova Cat who I think uses traditional cluster organization (45 Mechs, 75 Elementals, 30 Fighters) which their mid range combined arms carrier was to haul a third of (15 Mechs, 25 Elementals and 10 Fighters). Simple enough but I couldn't satisfy those numbers into a Fortress size rather it ballooned to a Dictator size.

Wolf and Smoke Jaguar are Mech heavy organizations often using a Elemental Binary and Fighter Star to add another Mech trinary (60 Mechs!)

Blood Spirit doesn't use fighters in combined arms operations but sticks to the original doctrine by little Nicki with 45 Mechs, 75 Elementals (bit of a change here so they do evolve slightly), and 30 now OmniVehicles thanks to Quicksilver.

So we need to analysis every Clan's organization style.

Two, need to account for dropship manufacturing facilities throughout Clan space. We can handwave at the end of our efforts to address any big differences with changes made by Operation Restoration's Quicksilver Program.

Three, we need to address the scope of Quicksilver which I had envisioned leaving large craft out of its combined war production efforts or at least delaying it cause well the size gets enormous. And remember with Quicksilver we use existing products to produce a better end product. Remember to recycle comment intends for you to look at what is out there and ask yourself how can we use it. Also the Free Guilds are a bit of a help in that area possessing a number of mothballed ships ready for overhaul.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 10:59:28 AM by Takiro »
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2018, 11:42:50 AM »

One type doesnt need to fit all clans have competing one one for the traditional mech/elemental/aerospace and one that is geared towards the changing structure with vehicles coming back into play. The  beauty of quicksilver is some clans may be altering there traditional cluster layout
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Takiro

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2018, 11:56:42 AM »

This is true Bradshaw and please do suggest modifications to their traditional styles as you layout your vision for this project.

Maybe there is a combined arms number out there which can really serve the Clans as a whole. What that common divider is I haven't the foggiest yet but breaking down their numbers may hold the key.

Been PMing marauder648 on this subject too and wanted to share these thoughts with everyone here.

Quote
We really need to look at what they have (TRO 3057) and we can use to further this goal. I guess we can look at future craft as well to try and fill niches like we did for Quicksilver (TRO3067). The Outpost springs to mind. ;)

Oh and that is the thought I got but forgot in my last post. If I am a Clan warrior and want to challenge someone (another Clan) in the Kerensky Cluster to a duel but they ain't on my planet how can I get there? Is there a need for a single Mech or Fighter or Elemental carrying small craft/dropship?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 12:01:34 PM by Takiro »
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2018, 12:02:19 PM »

You may or may not have looked in detail what i had my Combined Arms dropship carry but its in that mold i was thinking for Star Adders and other like minded clans to take. A slight variance of Kerenskys ideal cluster formation. I'll look anr research more today and type up more tomorrow when im back at my work computer

I thought of marauders post as well my take was more thinking of fast interplanetary couriers

Also could be used for elemental headhunter missions

Thought of this as an example an oldie but a goodie

« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 12:43:15 PM by Bradshaw »
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2018, 12:11:30 PM »

Because many of the Clans have a very varied layout for their clusters and formations its obviously very hard to do a kind of one size fits all so what could be needed is something a bit like this

[ilKhan] Okay, sit down, shut up, pin your ears back and listen.  We are going to be building X to Y specifications as laid out under *insert Quicksilver Legalise sounding protocol here* and as was voted and agreed upon by this very council.  They are going to be built to this standard.  But, this does not mean that Clans can alter their internal layout as needed for your own formation sizes. But this is its size, this is its maximum capacity, this is the armament and this is the performance.

[Khans] *ALL CLAMOURING!*

They need a base design, something that's shared equally and will be available for all (At what ever cost the Sharks ask) and everyone is happy as they get a new dropship.  At which point when everyone goes away they then try and alter it to fit Flurry's, Cloisters, Bernaise Sauce, what ever the individual Clan wants.  What they are given though is a very defined framework.
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2018, 12:21:27 PM »

Id say trials of refusal following but who knows

To bad dropships cant be omnified but i could see variants with x amount of tonnage donated strictly to differing war material loads


Which reminds me Tak once questioned if the Star League could institute another trial of refusal over invasion and if it was allowed canon shows us it does by both nova cat and diamond shark doing trials to be reserve clans in invasion. Just got done reading Revival Wars so made me remember that discussion
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2018, 12:33:04 PM »

my thinking is that they can't be omnified, but you can standarize to a degree. So lets say the Incompetent Buffoons Class Dropship gets built for the Clans

She's 14,000 tons
She's got 4/6 performance with X fuel
It has X armour ferro aluminium tonnage
and has X weapons

and this is ALL fixed. No changes. So everyone can produce it etc.



The interior though with regards to the cargo, how many Mechs, Elementals, fighters, Creme Brulle, or Duck la orange the individual Clans want to fit in there is up to them.

So a Wolf Incompetent Buffoon might have 30 Mechs, 50 elementals and 20 fighters, whereas a Horse one might have 20 Mechs, 10 vehicles, 25 Elementals 10 fighters etc 

But its all on the same base hull.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 12:37:29 PM by marauder648 »
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2018, 12:40:56 PM »

Exactly what I was trying to say in A much more vague and crappy way  ;D
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #42 on: September 03, 2018, 12:44:31 PM »

Exactly what I was trying to say in A much more vague and crappy way  ;D

*tips hat*

Sorry for all the food references, I'm hungry and looking at menu's.
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Bradshaw

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2018, 12:46:16 PM »

Haha i just figured you had a cooking show on in the background
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marauder648

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Re: Quicksilver Dropships
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2018, 12:47:23 PM »

Haha i just figured you had a cooking show on in the background

Kind of, menu's and a rather amusing show called 'Supersizers Go...' with it then being a decade, I'm listening to the one about the 70's, its rather amusing :D
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