Topic: Questions on Micro-States and Free Worlds (Read 33854 times)

Knightmare · « **on:** February 24, 2012, 04:31:51 PM »

With the collapse of the Free Worlds League we get to see close collections of micro-states and independent worlds existing as neighbors next to each other and larger Great Houses. Somehow these states and worlds remain as is in the face of their larger neighbors.

What are your thoughts? Do states like these stand a chance at long term survival? How do you think they survive at all? Anything else you'd like to share?

Thanks in advance!

Blacknova · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2012, 08:44:13 PM »

Work off the well founded BT Piranah Principle.

Much as they might want to, the larger states can't devote resources to taking over these smaller states, for when they try, they must weaken thier defences against the other large powers, who would then sweep in the wreck the joint.

Knightmare · « **Reply #2 on:** February 24, 2012, 09:55:29 PM »

Thanks Black!

Other thoughts?

drakensis · « **Reply #3 on:** February 25, 2012, 03:10:11 AM »

Also the micros states still around in the 3120s are those that survived getting gobbled in the early post-Jihad years. Quite a number of the nascent states or existing provinces wound up getting overrun following the FWL break up.

Beyond that, I suspect some of the smaller planets were 'areas of influence' by larger states that couldn't move in without having to fight the states on the other side, but wouldn't let anyone else move in either. Given the war-weariness of the post-jihad years, with many states still rebuilding their forces, few states would want to risk a serious conflict.

Halvagor · « **Reply #4 on:** February 25, 2012, 07:30:27 AM »

When your own house is in disorder, you tend to not think too much about stealing from your neighbor. To put it another way, states tend to not get aggressive against their neighbors when they're facing civil war at home. The Jihad messed up the Capellans and Lyrans sufficiently that they were too busy trying to reestablish order in their own realms to spend time trying to pick up loose pieces from the former FWL chessboard. The Magistry had its own issues, as well.

Then, too, the Jihad did a decent number on the industrial planets of the FWL, raising serious questions as to whether the juice to be gained from taking former FWL worlds would be worth the effort of squeezing them. Given how few pro-Capellan rebellions there were in the worlds the FWL took from the CapConnies over the course of the succession wars (unlike in the Capellan March), it would seem that on that flank, at least, the natives didn't really relish the idea of returning to the control of the Liaos, which would have served to make it even more difficult to pick off a few worlds.

No, all in all, the strategic imperative for anyone in a position to grab worlds in the former FWL had too many other problems to deal with at the time, much like no one really snatched at many worlds in the Chaos March; even Sun Tzu Liao didn't try to sweep all of those back up at once, and the post-Jihad Inner Sphere is many times more screwed than at the time the Sarna March devolved into the Chaos March.

Knightmare · « **Reply #5 on:** February 25, 2012, 09:05:16 AM »

Thanks for the answers fellas. Anyone else care to chime in on Micro-states in general, or those of the former FWL? I'd really like to hear a lot of opinions if possible. (Do I need to sweeten the deal with candy?)

Takiro · « **Reply #6 on:** February 25, 2012, 10:53:22 AM »

I'll bite. This is or was the FREE WORLDS League. Perhaps the micro-states who have a common history and now maybe a goal of continued sovereignty may ally however loosely to maintain their independence. A Free Worlds Alliance? My vision of the FWL for another project has individual worlds seeking friends almost immediately and assembling in 3-4 world small provinces. Some go on to larger provinces but no world is an island. How truly self sufficient are they?

Halvagor · « **Reply #7 on:** February 25, 2012, 02:19:44 PM »

Well, they had to have been self-sufficient at one point in order to apply Camlann v Free Worlds to gain independence from one of the major provinces; at one time or another, pretty much 2/3rds of the FWL belonged to Marik, Oriente, Regulus, or Andurien. Whether they were still mostly self-sufficient at the end of the 4th War is another issue.

Fun fact: every world that was part of the Duchy of Andurien (in the FWL) during the Star League era had used Camlann v Free Worlds to withdraw from the Duchy by 3025.

Dread Moores · « **Reply #8 on:** February 25, 2012, 04:30:18 PM »

Those states also worked together pretty well, at least at the trade level. When I did my production spreadsheets way back when, the proto-states in the FWL had a lot of military hardware trade going on, even after the end of the Jihad (though certain combinations obviously didn't exist). There's also some pretty strong indications that the Republic provided some discreet support to specific proto-states to keep things calm (and likely to keep some pressure on the Capellans where possible).

Knightmare · « **Reply #9 on:** February 26, 2012, 09:21:26 AM »

Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback. Good to see the forum "at work."

A couple more.

Independent worlds. Thoughts? Expectations? In general, how do they survive independently when larger states are close neighbors? What keeps a planet independent when closing ranks seems like a logical option?

Takiro · « **Reply #10 on:** February 26, 2012, 01:11:13 PM »

They aren't worth the trouble. Either they are self sufficient and dirty poor with little to offer potential invaders or they have a reputation for stubborn resistance. Cooperation I've already explained by there is another philosophy other states could be afraid of. Democratic contagion. Absorbing these planets might expose your own world to persistent political campaigning aimed at tearing down your central government and establishing a true Free Worlds order.

Halvagor · « **Reply #11 on:** February 26, 2012, 02:19:55 PM »

Agreed on the "aren't worth the trouble" line, but there are other ways they can be "trouble" such as by being a net drain on the infrastructure of the larger state. This is, after all, more or less why the Inner Sphere states didn't just casually swallow up the Periphery as soon as they (re)discovered a world. Most of the Periphery-side worlds of the great states were already a drain on the economies of the central states (the FedSuns "Outback" was notoriously poor and underdeveloped), so there has to be some sort of incentive for a larger state to absorb a smaller one.

Of course, since it's people who run states, sometimes all the reason required is "because it's there, and I can." Which is why said independent states run a risk.

Knightmare · « **Reply #12 on:** February 26, 2012, 02:25:56 PM »

For anyone, everyone - What do you think are the bare minimum requirements for a small proto-state to exist surrounded by larger ones?

Halvagor · « **Reply #13 on:** February 26, 2012, 02:34:03 PM »

There are any number of potential answers to this one. The small state could, as mentioned before, have a reputation for insane levels of resistance from its civilian populace. Or it could have a military which punches well above its apparent weight (the Sri Lankan military kicks royal ass at counterinsurgency...because they've been doing it for decades on their home turf; no one's messed with Switzerland in hundreds of years). It could be some sort of puppet state, or left alone by larger ones as neutral ground on which the big states can meet unofficially to discuss business while technically being at war.

The easiest thing to have, though, would be a underdeveloped economy (so there's no money to be made in conquering it) and neighbors which have other problems (their own revolts/wars/recessions/etc) and therefore can't engage in foreign adventurism against minor states. This is pretty much how the canon Periphery states survived during the Succession Wars.

Knightmare · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2012, 06:00:14 PM »

Anyone else care to chime in?

Lots of feedback is appreciated.

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Author Topic: Questions on Micro-States and Free Worlds (Read 33854 times)

Knightmare

Questions on Micro-States and Free Worlds

Blacknova

Re: Questions on Micro-States and Free Worlds

Knightmare

Re: Questions on Micro-States and Free Worlds

drakensis

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Halvagor

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Knightmare

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Takiro

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Halvagor

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Dread Moores

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Knightmare

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Takiro

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Halvagor

Re: Questions on Micro-States and Free Worlds

Knightmare

Re: Questions on Micro-States and Free Worlds

Halvagor

Re: Questions on Micro-States and Free Worlds

Knightmare

Re: Questions on Micro-States and Free Worlds