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Author Topic: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony  (Read 35934 times)

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Trace Coburn

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1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« on: March 01, 2011, 08:00:42 PM »

  I spent a couple of hours combing through references in '58U, '50U, '75 and Historical: Operation KLONDIKE and used those to (longhand!) compile a list of units that employed advanced THAF technologies, then cross-referenced those with the status of the planet where those units were made (mainly who had seized which worlds by the end of the First Succession War).  Now, assuming that all of the advanced technologies were installed (if not actually made) at the factories where these units were made, I came up with the following table, which shows which Successor State might have recovered examples or technical data from those factories, either through espionage during the Star League/Amaris Civil War era or when they annexed these worlds and factories from the Hegemony in 1SW.  (The first number of 'standard' advanced units as seen in TRO2750 or '58U, the second is Royal machines from '50U, '75, or Klondike.)

           CapCon          DraCom           FedSuns             F.W.L.          LyrCom

ERPPC       1 + 1            1 + 0            1 + 1              0 + 2           2 + 2
ERLL        0 + 2            0 + 1            0 + 1              0 + 0           1 + 2
LPL         0 + 0            0 + 1            0 + 1              0 + 3           0 + 3
MPL         3 + 2            0 + 0            1 + 2              0 + 3           1 + 5
SPL         0 + 0            0 + 0            0 + 0              0 + 0           0 + 1

G.R.        1 + 1            0 + 0            3 + 0              0 + 0           4 + 4
LB10X       2 + 0            0 + 0            0 + 0              0 + 0           1 + 0
UAC/5       0 + 0            0 + 0            0 + 0              0 + 0           1 + 1
AMS         1 + 0            1 + 0            0 + 1              0 + 0           1 + 0

SSRM        1 + 1            0 + 0            0 + 0              0 + 1           1 + 1
ART-IV      2 + 1            0 + 0            0 + 0              1 + 2           3 + 6
NARC        0 + 0            0 + 0            0 + 0              0 + 0           0 + 0

MASC        0 + 0            0 + 0            0 + 0              1 + 1           0 + 0
TAG         0 + 1            0 + 0            0 + 0              0 + 0           0 + 1
BAP         1 + 0            1 + 0            0 + 0              1 + 1           0 + 0
GECM        0 + 0            0 + 0            0 + 0              0 + 0           2 + 0

ES          0 + 1            3 + 0            0 + 0              4 + 0           3 + 6
FFA         3 + 0            0 + 0            0 + 1              0 + 0           1 + 3
XLFE        6 + 3            1 + 2            2 + 4              2 + 5           8 +10
DHS         3 + 3            1 + 2            2 + 4              2 + 5           7 + 7
FAA         0 + 1            0 + 1            0 + 4              1 + 1           1 + 4
CASE        4 + 1            3 + 0            0 + 0              3 + 1           5 + 3


  These table does not include:
- units made on Terra itself (including the Ost family)
- units whose primary site of manufacture/Royal-refit I can't trace definitively, including the LCT-1Vb, STG-3Gb, GRF-2N, SHD-2Hb, TDR-5Sb, ARC02Rb, WHM-7A, STK-3Fb, CRD-2R, WHM-6Rb, MAD-1R, MAD-2R, and BLR-1Gb.

  Even with the caveats noted above, if each unit represents a discrete chance for the Great Houses to recover one or more pieces of advanced BattleTech from the Hegemony either by espionage before or during the Civil War, or main force during 1SW ... well, the shape of the Succession Wars might have been quite different if they'd managed to start building this gear themselves and get it into the field in useful numbers.   ::)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 08:06:48 PM by Trace Coburn »
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2011, 08:05:46 PM »

That is some nice work.
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2011, 08:13:15 PM »

That is some nice work.
  Also raises some questions, yes?  I mean, some of these units had been in production in House territory for centuries by the time of the Coup, yet they never once managed to plant an intelligence officer in one of those factories to download specs and blueprints for replication elsewhere?  Never made sure a shipment of certain components (or finished goods!) got diverted/lost/'seized by pirates' so they could reverse-engineer them?  And they never once backed up the blueprints and specs elsewhere, so that when teh factories were blown away, so was the know-how involved in building their products?

  Y'know, I'm strongly inclined to think that the Terran Hegemont was running its own Operation HOLY SHROUD during the pre-Amaris era, long before ComStar ever got the idea....
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2011, 08:22:34 PM »

In effect it was with the Prometheus Prgrom, anti-export for hi tech legislation and active progams designed at maintaining its technological superiority.

What always got me was the fact the the TH's first Mech production facility was in Lyran space on Hesperus II.  Terra wuold have been the logical choice, or the backwoods of Mars.  I think we may well see some creative retconning regarding those issues.

Additionally, the TH may have activly "encouraged" the other nations to hand back anything that was taken through creative trade embargos?
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2011, 08:32:56 PM »

Honestly Trace, it might be where ComStar found its inspiration for the Holy Shroud missions...
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2011, 08:36:46 PM »

In effect it was with the Prometheus Prgrom, anti-export for hi tech legislation and active progams designed at maintaining its technological superiority.

What always got me was the fact the the TH's first Mech production facility was in Lyran space on Hesperus II.  Terra wuold have been the logical choice, or the backwoods of Mars.  I think we may well see some creative retconning regarding those issues.

Additionally, the TH may have activly "encouraged" the other nations to hand back anything that was taken through creative trade embargos?

Now that's not entirely true Black. Skobel was on Terra.

But if there's one thing the SLSB touches on, but never really expands upon is the power of the Hegemony economy. Both before and certainly during the Star League it was the center piece of the whole system. Raw resources went it, finished products went out. Take into consideration the advanced equipment the Hegemony provided the member-states so they could colonize some of their less hospitable worlds and just maybe, in some ways, the Hegemony had the Great Houses by the proverbial "shorts."

It's not a full explanation, but could be supportive.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 09:00:53 PM by Knightmare »
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2011, 09:10:43 PM »

Fair enough, but Hesperus II, that was one poor piece of fact checking.
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2011, 09:35:41 PM »

Fair enough, but Hesperus II, that was one poor piece of fact checking.

For realz.
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2011, 03:36:08 PM »

I mean, some of these units had been in production in House territory for centuries by the time of the Coup, yet they never once managed to plant an intelligence officer in one of those factories to download specs and blueprints for replication elsewhere?  Never made sure a shipment of certain components (or finished goods!) got diverted/lost/'seized by pirates' so they could reverse-engineer them?  And they never once backed up the blueprints and specs elsewhere, so that when teh factories were blown away, so was the know-how involved in building their products?

Who said they didn't manage to do it?
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2011, 11:51:51 PM »

I mean, some of these units had been in production in House territory for centuries by the time of the Coup, yet they never once managed to plant an intelligence officer in one of those factories to download specs and blueprints for replication elsewhere?  Never made sure a shipment of certain components (or finished goods!) got diverted/lost/'seized by pirates' so they could reverse-engineer them?  And they never once backed up the blueprints and specs elsewhere, so that when the factories were blown away, so was the know-how involved in building their products?
Who said they didn't manage to do it?
  Actively said?  Admittedly: no-one.  It's inferential.  :-[
  However, it's hard to avoid drawing that conclusion when you consider the fact that we've seen no evidence of knowledge or production of these technologies proliferating beyond facilities that were solely dedicated to supplying the SLDF.  Or the fact that those technologies and the knowledge-base behind them were still localised enough for the Succession Wars (and ComStar) to eradicate without knocking every last world in the Inner Sphere back down to the level of bearskins and clubs.  Being on the Internet, we all know how fast and far information can proliferate, and technical toys like DHS are memes just like any other: d'you think nuking 4chan's servers would destroy all knowledge of "All Your Base"?   ???
  Hell, the exact details of nuclear fission were among the United States' most fiercely guarded military secrets of last century, and data-proliferation was mainly by voice or snail-mail.  Nonetheless, once the Soviet Union - the U.S.'s mortal enemy of the time - had seen Little Boy and Fat Man in action, they managed to steal and weaponise those secrets in less than a decade.  Less than forty years after that, the only thing preventing high school science projects from making a loud radioactive bang was a lack of access to fissile material!   :o

  To a certain extent, I'll grant there's reason to believe the Houses might have been, erm, 'extremely circumspect' about any visible effort to match or duplicate SLDF technology during the Star League era - between the Mother Doctrine restricting tech export, economic reprisals for IP infringements, and (inferred) black ops by Hegemony intelligence agencies nobbling House R&D, I can just about buy an effective 'lock-out' on the Houses putting THAF weapons and technologies into widespread production and use, though whether they'd managed to get the hardware production-ready remains open to debate.  But once Amaris pulled the Coup, Hegemony intelligence had bigger fish to fry than restricting House R&D efforts, and General Kerensky actually had to give away SLDF technology to the Houses in order to keep his forces moving towards Terra!
  Hell, I can even understand the Houses holding off on duplicating/producing Hegemony hardware for their own advantage during the Civil War itself: they weren't sure who'd win, and while they knew Kerensky would have tried to annex expanded production for his own needs, there's no way of knowing what the hell Amaris would've done to them if he'd pulled off a win.
  But in the period between the end of the Civil War and the Exodus, when everybody knew that a war between the Houses was all but inevitable, when the Hegemony's bureaucracies and government agencies were gutted wrecks, when its economy was in ruins, its leadership was dead or broken, and its military was a shadow of its former self, all bets were off... yet we have no evidence in canon that the Great Houses built even one new factory for one new piece of technology prior to the outbreak of 1SW.  I know, I know: lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, and they might very well have done so in places that canon carefully hasn't looked yet.  (I know that's the approach I'm going to pursue in the wider universe of The Virginia War.)  But the fact remains that TTBOMK, every canonical facility that produced advanced hardware has been specifically called out as having been built by the Hegemony and building its equipment for the Hegemony.

  Example: the EMP-6A Emperor, built on Menke and St. Ives since 2612.  Featured technologies: XLFE, DHS, LB-10X autocannon, MPL, CASE.  The Maskirovka has never been known for its reluctance to spend blood and treasure for the Celestial Throne, yet somehow, between December 2766 and the destruction of those factories during the Second Succession War - a period of more than six decades, during which those factories were still producing, TTBOMK! - despite those factories still being in active production of Emperors, despite the CCAF having actual physical examples of this hardware and the production tooling to make it to work from, they never managed to get any of those technologies into production elsewhere in the CapCon?  I know the Cappies were hurting for industrial capacity, but that much?   ???
  Example: the CTS-6Y Cestus, built by GM on Kathil from 2766 until the factory (production line?) was destroyed at the start of 2SW.  Featured technologies: XLFE, DHS, GR.  Yet it's not until the incident on Hoff in the early 3020s that we have any canonical mention of House Davion experimenting with DHS technology.
  Example: the Rapier aerospace fighter, built on Tharkad since 2596, and AFAWK that was the only factory to ever make them.  Featured technologies: DHS, XLFE (Royal only), LPL (Royal only), Artemis-IV (Royal only), CASE (Royal only), MPL (Royal only).  While the absence of pulse-lasers or Artemis might be explained by those items being installed after delivery to the SLDF, it's kind of hard to build a spaceframe without an engine (or its integral heat-sinks), yet the Lyrans don't appear to have built their own facilities to make DHS (or XLFEs).


  Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not advocating a rewrite of canon to show the House armies of the Succession Wars era fielding huge swathes of IS2 tech, much less of Royal-quality machines, except maybe as an illustration of how far down the Succession Wars dragged them.  Personally, I find something viscerally appealing in 'old-school' 'Mechs, despite their tactical limitations in game-play, and if the story I felt compelled to write was purely IS1 technology, I'd probably derive great pleasure from telling that story.  However, the story-concept that called to me was one of exploring the reasons why advanced BattleTech didn't proliferate during the Star League era, and what happens when external restrictions on technological advancement come off.
  I'm simply saying that recent sourcebooks have revealed a lot of specifics as to how widely-spread IS2-grade battlefield technology actually was before the Succession Wars, and that wide spread has logical implications for the technological progress of both weaponry itself and of the greater BT universe.  Anyone wishing to write a BT alternate timeline - particularly one with a point-of-digression before Operation Holy Shroud, like mine does in the stories of The Virginia War - needs to be aware of that technological proliferation and the impact it could have on the development of your timeline.  Whether any given writer chooses to incorporate such a spread of technology, or find a way to write it out again and go back to 'old school BT', is a creative choice they must make for themselves.
  Or they could just say "LOL logic =/= BattleTech ROFL" and write about big stompy robots blowing pieces off each other.  ;D
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2011, 08:01:04 AM »

After that I can only say, "thank you voice of reason!" Well said Trace!
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2011, 02:58:06 PM »

Perhaps the chassis were built on those worlds and then shipped for Terra for final assembly.  Its a stretch I know, but just another option.
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2011, 03:03:41 PM »

That's another problem with the inevitable retcon of earlier sources - it inevitably raises even more questions.

Consider for a moment the two Historicals slated for development: Reunification War & Liberation

Theoretically, between the two we should learn the answers to some of these questions, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2011, 04:54:14 PM »

Imagine factories in the different future Successor States but with employees coming from the Terran Hegemony, strict surveillance and limited contacts with the outside world or access to high tech.

Also don't forget that the main R&D centres were in the Terran Hegemony, the Successor States ones were just trying to cope with a 2 generations delay.

And I guess the Successor States had not the manpower, tech, money to build new factories at the same time they were absorbing the Terran Hegemony factories and tech while increasing the size of their armies.

And I also do think that they believed in a "short and happy war."

Those are just my two euro cents in this debate.
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Re: 1SW - who got what from the Hegemony
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2011, 05:36:34 PM »

The short, happy war option sounds likely.
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