OBT Forum

Takiro

I can't find a world named Preston and must assume it honors a person. The Preston Lancers also make an appearance in the Succession War game but again that is highly unreliable. Still we'd have to know the significance of Preston.

The Commando formation would have very little in common with the Death Commandos. They maybe elite units operating at battalion strength although they may be organized into regiments. However, they wouldn't be the Chancellor's bodyguard but rather crack raiders focusing on highly mobile warfare intent on destroying the enemies infrastructure.

Other than those I believe we must depart canon influences and just start creating our own Liao units.

FirstStarLord

As I posted in the other thread, there are some other regiments from the House Liao Sourcebook that can be used as well.

Blandford’s Cuirassiers (Possibly the 4th Capellan Hussar Regiment?)
Hamilton’s Cavaliers (Possibly existed in 2785)
Ishira’s Grenadiers (Possibly existed in 2785. Possible misspelling of Ishara?)
Lothar’s Fusiliers (Possibly existed in 2785)
Shimosa’s Gravediggers (Possibly existed in 2785)

Takiro

Quote from: lrose on April 11, 2009, 02:17:04 AM
Preston is in the Capellan Commonality near Sian.

Yes, you are quite right. Preston is just above Sian in the Capellan Commonality. As an homage to the Succession War game and their appearance in HLSB (they are listed as a Line Regiment in that book) I'd like to include them as a Parent Formation. Perhaps 3-4 regiments in size so in canon they got smaller and smaller over time. Anyone want to take a stab at their role in the CCAF.

Great, so the (Capellan) Commandos would be another Parent Formation in the CCAF. First off we need a first name besides Death. As I have said they'd likely be the elite force of the CCAF (think US Army Rangers) organized into regiments but adept at battalion sized strikes making them ideal for the Succession War. They probably got a lot of use during the Star League Hidden Wars striking at Liao's neighbors with appropriate degrees of success. Not sure how long they have existed (could go back to the dawn of the Confederation) or how large they are (likely 3-4 regiments I'd guess)??

The Confederation Reserve Cavalry sounds like a mobile response force akin to the Deneb Light Cavalry. Always ready to respond to incursion of the Confederation border. Looking back at our discussions this is a very similar view to what FirstStarLord laid out. There seems to be evidence for 6 regiments again as FirstStarLord pointed out one for each Commonality.

We also have the Capellan Chargers who seem to have 4 regiments or less in 2785. We could eliminate them altogether as the first reference is to a group (the 5th) in 2805 meaning they could have been a new formation created after the restructuring of 2799. I have to mention all possibilities. Either that or we'd need a role and history for this force. I suppose they could be the Commonalty force of Capella.

The Capellan Hussars are well enshrined at this time as guardians of the state and their strength is likely 4 regiments. Obviously they are a Confederation or nation wide unit not limited to a single Commonalty.

Lastly for canon Parent Formations we'd have the St. Ives Armored Cavalry. We know they have more than a dozen regiments at this time so 14 is a good number for me here. Obviously they would be a Commonalty Forces composed of many known Child Formations (see below).

For BTSD purposes we have the Turin Light Cavalry which as you know will replace the Tau Ceti Rangers in the CCAF. The plan is to model them on a Star League RCT. Currently at 4 battalions there are plans to take them up to full strength (4 regiments) and we've discussed Liao Math or Capellan Counting which will be detailed.

The confusing situation of the Northwind Highlanders also would be addressed in a Parent Formation report as it is a critical situation for the Republic I believe. Are they mercenaries, Terran expatriates, or Capellan Regulars. Plus all this impact has to be evaluated in universe as a threat.

Commonality Forces would sort of be like District Regulars for the Draconis Combine or replacements for the Reserve formations created in 2832 which could have marked a major turning point in Liao military operations. Shifted to defensive operations almost exclusively which is a critical difference at this time. We know St. Ives and if you scan the thread I have suggestions for Liao and Capella forces. That leaves at least Sarn (Sarna), Tikonov, Chesterton, and Sian to be detailed.
These four Parent Formations gives us a total of 12 such Meta Groupings to spread among the CCAF for an average of more than 10 Mech regiments for each. Many of the above formations have less than 10 regiments but that makes sense to me as these Commonalty Forces (with the exception of Liao which isn't a Commonalty although you could argue that about Chesterton) would be large garrison forces.
If additional forces for Liao (suggested Commando formation), Capellan (possibly the Chargers but I could see this one more than any other having another unit added), St. Ives (can't see this one at all with the SIAC), or Andurien (I'd say it was a treaty stipulation Liao pretty much adhered to and they just never got around to establishing such a force) there of course would be more.

Quote from: lrose on April 11, 2009, 02:17:04 AM
Kincaid's Rangers (existed in 2789)
Shadrack's Shadowhawks- destroyed 2916 formed ?
Sung's Cuirrassiers
1st Ariana Fusiliers
Ariana Grenadiers
Hamilton's Highlanders (need to work out contradictions)
Stapleton's Grenadiers (again need to work out contradictions)
Hampton's Hessens
41st Capellan Heavy Assault Battalion
LaFarge Hussars (formed ? eventually became Wilson's Hussars)

Some of these and others listed in this thread or the CCAF cicra 2785 thread have stated known Singular Units or Child Formations part of larger Parent Formations. These are Regiments which will fit into the Parent Formations outlined above. I know this is all confusing thanks to the Liao tendency to name units how they do. That should also be another point made in our study of the Cappies.

Next up we need to gather up these Child Units (like the Lost Legion or the 1st St. Ives Lancers for example) and place them with their Parents. Wink

For example, looking back at Vincent’s Commandos who I was thinking about including in the (Capellan) Commandos I see they were Duchy of Liao. Interesting. Could we include this some into the overall Commando story? Maybe Franco Liao's original Commandos? Could they be the Liao Regional Force??

So this post isn't a bad start for Preliminary Findings for the CCAF. Please tell me what you think.

Takiro

Quote from: lrose on April 11, 2009, 02:42:58 PM
You could go with Capellan Rangers- the CC has several units that use Rangers in the name.  I wouldn't think of them as regiments, but rather a lot of battalions, which is probably how they are deployed- maybe 15 battalions in total?

I like the Rangers name but how about Liao? The Liao Rangers. Trying to get away from too many Capellan units. LOL, just thought of the Lone Ranger when I said that. Still ain't bad but 15 battalions sounds fine. I also like that cause the deployment reeks of precursors to the Warrior Houses and Death Commandos. Perhaps they'd have infantry and fighters attached as well. What of them being the Duchy of Liao force?

Quote from: lrose on April 11, 2009, 02:42:58 PM
I'd keep them in 2785- make them the main force of the Capellan Commonality or maybe the Sian Commonality (although the 5th later became Cochraine's goliaths and part of the SIAC...)  Maybe Preston's Lancers were the main force of the Capellan Commonality?

I'd actually keep Preston Lancers a seperate national force not associated with a commonalty. Perhaps the world of Preston was a big supplier of troops much like Northwind early in Confederation history. Either the Succession Wars might dwindle their numbers or they already have been on the decline much like certain Terran worlds that were important but now its star has been elcipsed.

I have no problem with the Capellan Chargers existing at this time and I could see them as being the Commonalty force but at only 4 regiments? That is the big question to me. I see most of the Commonalty Forces as 10 plus regiment forces like the SIAC. It for this reason I see them as being a specialized national force.

Quote from: lrose on April 11, 2009, 02:42:58 PM
We have the following units:
Red Lancers- Represent St Ives
Blandford's Grenadiers - represents Tikonov
Prefectorate Guard -raised to replace Merik's Grenadiers- ties to Sian
an Unnamed regiment was destroyed in the 3rd SW by the FS -This unit has ties to either Capella or Sarna
This leaves us with another completely unknown regiment (unless we go with what FM:CC implies which is the Prefectorate Guard date back to the founding of the Hussars giving us all 5 regiments)

Big question, here was there one for each Commonalty? That could mean five or six regiments at this time. I kind of thought each Hussar unit represented a Commonalty but didn't know that the Red Lancers were St. Ives. I have two thoughts on possible replacements here if needed. One, I had a House Campaign were I was playing Liao before FM CC was released with streamlined CCAF. Along with the Turin Light Cavlary I raised a new Hussar regiment named the Celestial Guard aka 5th Capellan Hussars. What do you think? Two, is the Capellan government itself which the Hussars are protectors. We know about the Chancellor and Prefectorate but there is also the House of Scions and the Capellan Ministerial to take into account. The Ministerial could be an excellent basis as it divides itself among the Commonalty's. The
Ministry of Resources is located on Sarna, Information Standards on Sian, Trade and Exchange on Capella, Development on Chesterton (which is in Exile on Sirius in 3025 but Andurien might be a great place for it in 2785), Social Education on St. Ives, and Military on Tikonov.

Quote from: lrose on April 11, 2009, 02:42:58 PM
Chesterton is the easiest- several of the Chesterton Reserves existed in 2785- I would suggest they become the backbone of the Chesterton Formation. Tikonov could be the old Tikonov Voltegiers or Tikonov Border Guard, Sarna and Sian are big question marks.

Let me say first off I'm fine with filling the gaps where we have to, so it might be easier for forces we know nothing about. But your right about Chesterton, we know alot of their child units.
For Tikonov I'd love to go with the Tikonov Border Guard as the Parent Formation of that Commonalty. I believe the Voltegiers appeared later but the TBG gives us a more St. Ives Armored Cavalry sounding brother if you get what I mean.
Sarn, Sian, and even Capella (if we so choose) are question marks but I'm sure we could create an appropraite sounding force name based on those two.

Quote from: lrose on April 11, 2009, 02:42:58 PM
Making Preston's Lancers the formation of Capella, allows the Capellan Chargers to represent Sian, helping solve some of the issues...

Again I'm not in favor of Preston assuming a Commonalty role but I could be talked into the Chargers.

Quote from: lrose on April 11, 2009, 02:42:58 PM
But much like Andurien, the CC never gave up on the Chesterton worlds which is why they rate a force,  I'd probably skip any sort of organization for Liao at this time.

Right now I'm for skipping Andurien for a Parent Formation but a Child Unit (like a single regiment) is fine.

Quote from: lrose on April 11, 2009, 02:42:58 PM
Vincent's Commando's don't exist at this point- they are various assorted commando battalions you want to include in the Capellan Commandos- the unit that we know as Vincent's Commandos is formed between 2805-2810.

Quite right.

Quote from: Takiro on April 11, 2009, 04:32:09 PM
I like the Rangers name but how about Liao? The Liao Rangers. Trying to get away from too many Capellan units. LOL, just thought of the Lone Ranger when I said that. Still ain't bad but 15 battalions sounds fine. I also like that cause the deployment reeks of precursors to the Warrior Houses and Death Commandos. Perhaps they'd have infantry and fighters attached as well. What of them being the Duchy of Liao force?

That works for me.

Quote
I'd actually keep Preston Lancers a seperate national force not associated with a commonalty. Perhaps the world of Preston was a big supplier of troops much like Northwind early in Confederation history. Either the Succession Wars might dwindle their numbers or they already have been on the decline much like certain Terran worlds that were important but now its star has been elcipsed.

Again that is a good idea.

Quote
I have no problem with the Capellan Chargers existing at this time and I could see them as being the Commonalty force but at only 4 regiments? That is the big question to me. I see most of the Commonalty Forces as 10 plus regiment forces like the SIAC. It for this reason I see them as being a specialized national force.

Maybe there were more then 4 regiments, just the 5th had been disbanded (say due to Edict of 2650 ) and was only reformed much later?

Quote
Big question, here was there one for each Commonalty? That could mean five or six regiments at this time. I kind of thought each Hussar unit represented a Commonalty but didn't know that the Red Lancers were St. Ives. I have two thoughts on possible replacements here if needed. One, I had a House Campaign were I was playing Liao before FM CC was released with streamlined CCAF. Along with the Turin Light Cavlary I raised a new Hussar regiment named the Celestial Guard aka 5th Capellan Hussars. What do you think? Two, is the Capellan government itself which the Hussars are protectors. We know about the Chancellor and Prefectorate but there is also the House of Scions and the Capellan Ministerial to take into account. The Ministerial could be an excellent basis as it divides itself among the Commonalty's. The
Ministry of Resources is located on Sarna, Information Standards on Sian, Trade and Exchange on Capella, Development on Chesterton (which is in Exile on Sirius in 3025 but Andurien might be a great place for it in 2785), Social Education on St. Ives, and Military on Tikonov.

It specifically says that Franco Liao took the best regiment from each commonality to form the Hussars- I guess since most of Chesterton was captured by the FS at this point they didn't count- so it is originally 5 regiments. The Red Lancers (nee 2nd Hexare Lancers) are representives of St Ives (even though Hexare is in the Sian Commonality- go figure). I like the idea of the Celestial Guard - but in many ways the Red Lancers fill that role and are responsible for protecting the Chancellor.  Blandford's Grenadiers is responsible for the House of Scions.

Quote
Let me say first off I'm fine with filling the gaps where we have t[qo, so it might be easier for forces we know nothing about. But your right about Chesterton, we know alot of their child units.
For Tikonov I'd love to go with the Tikonov Border Guard as the Parent Formation of that Commonalty. I believe the Voltegiers appeared later but the TBG gives us a more St. Ives Armored Cavalry sounding brother if you get what I mean.

Actually I think the TV and TBG were interchangeable but I prefer the TBG - sounds somewhat russian.

Quote
Sarn, Sian, and even Capella (if we so choose) are question marks but I'm sure we could create an appropraite sounding force name based on those two.

Way back in the 2300s, there were the Sarna Shock Brigades.  That's possible name for the organization.

FirstStarLord

Well considering it was the Sian Commonwealth, why not call their forces the Sian Common Army?

Chesterton on the other hand could be something both conventional yet fitting. The Chesterton Borderers has a nice ring to it.

Takiro

Sounds good guys but we are still short. I'll explain in a second. The Sian Common Army I like cause it says People's Republic in so many ways, nice job FSL. However, for the Chesterton situation I'd like something that rings their situation and connects to another piece of Capella. How about the Chesterton Freedom Legion? It sums up their struggle and situation nicely. Oh and for the other Capellan Hussar unit I was thinking the Celestial Hand, kind of the Chancellor's strike force. What do you think

So I was just running the projected numbers of the Parent Formations and trying to make their numbers fit with the stated 129. Here is what I got

Preston Lancers (3 regiments)
Liao Rangers (3 regiments)
Confederation Reserve Cavalry (6 regiments)
Capellan Chargers (4 regiments)
Capellan Hussars (4 regiments)
Turin Light Cavalry (4 regiments*) Liao Math even though they are at 4 battalions
Northwind Highlanders (4 regiments*) Capellans are counting these guys as Regulars even if we don't
Chesterton Freedom Legion (6 regiments?) Liao expatriates from this occupied region
St. Ives Armored Cavalry (14 regiments)
Tikonov Border Guard (15 regiments?)
Capellan Defense Force (12 regiments?) smallest area went with smallest number
Sarna Shock Brigades (13-14 regiments?)
Sian Common Army (15-18 regiments?) largest area got the largest number

With the numbers I used for the 13 Parent Formations I came up with a total of 103-107 Mech Regiments well short of our goal. I kept the Commonalty Forces around the known strength of the St. Ives Armored Cavalry. Chesterton I kept around half that cause it don't belong to the Cappies even though it is stronger in 3025. Figure with battlefield salvage and constantly fighting over that territory it would become more significant to the Confederation over time.

So what do we do? I'm considering the creation of 2 additional Parent Units to split the remaining 22-26 Mech Regiments on. One, how about the Andurien Commonalty? I just looked in the HLSB and the Chesterton Decree wasn't made until 2840 (pg. 58). Two pages later (pg. 60 HLSB) details Commonalities and the story of the Chislholm (Elgin in 3025) Commonalty. Done as a political ploy it was done to win the Chancellor support and it was eventually replaced by Chesterton. BUT could there have been an in between step. Could Andurien have been the Sixth Commonalty of the Confederation during this time?

Still that leaves us one short on my proposed Parent Formations and I have no idea especially for the number of units required. We could revisit BTA's original ideas on page 1 of this thread.