OBT Forum

blacktigeractual

A couple of things I'd like to discuss;
  First the number of Battalions in a Regiment.  Regimental Formations vary from between 2 Battalions (A Short Regiment), and 4-5 Battalions (A Reinforced Regiment).  A Regiment is simply an organizational framework, so this is not something you need to blame on Liao Math.
(Although I like the term Capellan Counting, lol)
  For example U.S. Regimental formations often use a four battalion format, although the Brigade designation has for the most part overtaken it.
  Thus it doesnt matter how many Battalions a Regiment has it is its existance as a combat organization that gets it listed, If an opponent doesn't do his homework and treats a unit as a "normal" 3 battalion unit drops in and finds that those battalions are actually Star League style assault battalion of four companies of 4 lances each well...oops.
  Second reading between the lines (A la Shu-Li Marshigama's Legionaires as a prime example.) It would seem that the Capellans have a structure like this;
1-House Line Regiments: (Capellan Hussars, St. Ives Armored Cavalry etc.)Units that are tied to the state often tracing thier lineage to the founding member states.
2-Reserve Formations: Supporting units tied to thier Comonalities and often acting as feeder units to a Line Unit.
3-For lack of a better term "Hero Units":  Before the great Glass Ceiling imposed by Jasmine Liao Capellan Units probably had a greater degree of freedom of action in tactical and strategic situations, this does have an overall effect on morale.  The erosion of this morale has been mentioned time and time again.  Perversely this has led to a mentality that in a do or die situation you do anything you can to win, if you fail you die, if you win then the State wont kill you.  Although this turns into the "Last Stand" mentality after the 4th War and Romano's purges here it could easily lead to the formation of independent units that are given a great deal of leeway as long as they continue to produce results.
4-Special Operations: Some of these will be special purpose units raised for a specific purpose, covert or otherwise. the SEAL, Delta, Death Commando types may at this point be simply called the Capellan Special Forces, no special or flashy name, but also includes such things as zero-g operations, or Search and Rescue and even, in the 3025 old game; Salvage and Tech Recovery.  Others will be Regular units that due to thier home terrain or frequency of encountering a particular situation gain a high level of specialization ie Arctic or Desert specialists, Assault Units such as what was discussed for the Chargers and since this is SciFi after all; Non Terran Environmental Specialists (High-G, Toxic or Corrosive atmosphere; you get the idea.)

  Anyway thats my MadCap rant.

Takiro

Quote from: FirstStarLord on April 12, 2009, 12:42:34 AM
In real life, a combat formation's number is sometimes dictated by its parent formation. An independent armor battalion attached to the III Army Corps might be numbered the 31st Armour Battalion. If it were attached to the VI Corps, it would be called the 61st battalion and so on. Maybe the Capellan Heavy Assault units function on a simlar principal.

That could very well be FSL, I don't think another Parent Formation functioning purely at battalion strength is needed other than the Liao Rangers. Although I'm going to classify the Rangers as 5 Mech regiments (15 battalions) as of 2785.

Still need some ideas on the Preston Lancers. I have their back story which details them as a major cog in Liaos wheel early on but I still need a role they fulfill in national military service. Perhaps it is related to their (unit and their homeworld) downward slide. Gonna keep them at 6 regiments.

Quote from: blacktigeractual on April 12, 2009, 01:35:35 AM
A couple of things I'd like to discuss;
  First the number of Battalions in a Regiment.  Regimental Formations vary from between 2 Battalions (A Short Regiment), and 4-5 Battalions (A Reinforced Regiment).  A Regiment is simply an organizational framework, so this is not something you need to blame on Liao Math.
(Although I like the term Capellan Counting, lol)
  For example U.S. Regimental formations often use a four battalion format, although the Brigade designation has for the most part overtaken it.
  Thus it doesnt matter how many Battalions a Regiment has it is its existance as a combat organization that gets it listed, If an opponent doesn't do his homework and treats a unit as a "normal" 3 battalion unit drops in and finds that those battalions are actually Star League style assault battalion of four companies of 4 lances each well...oops.
  Second reading between the lines (A la Shu-Li Marshigama's Legionaires as a prime example.) It would seem that the Capellans have a structure like this;
1-House Line Regiments: (Capellan Hussars, St. Ives Armored Cavalry etc.)Units that are tied to the state often tracing thier lineage to the founding member states.
2-Reserve Formations: Supporting units tied to thier Comonalities and often acting as feeder units to a Line Unit.
3-For lack of a better term "Hero Units":  Before the great Glass Ceiling imposed by Jasmine Liao Capellan Units probably had a greater degree of freedom of action in tactical and strategic situations, this does have an overall effect on morale.  The erosion of this morale has been mentioned time and time again.  Perversely this has led to a mentality that in a do or die situation you do anything you can to win, if you fail you die, if you win then the State wont kill you.  Although this turns into the "Last Stand" mentality after the 4th War and Romano's purges here it could easily lead to the formation of independent units that are given a great deal of leeway as long as they continue to produce results.
4-Special Operations: Some of these will be special purpose units raised for a specific purpose, covert or otherwise. the SEAL, Delta, Death Commando types may at this point be simply called the Capellan Special Forces, no special or flashy name, but also includes such things as zero-g operations, or Search and Rescue and even, in the 3025 old game; Salvage and Tech Recovery.  Others will be Regular units that due to thier home terrain or frequency of encountering a particular situation gain a high level of specialization ie Arctic or Desert specialists, Assault Units such as what was discussed for the Chargers and since this is SciFi after all; Non Terran Environmental Specialists (High-G, Toxic or Corrosive atmosphere; you get the idea.)

  Anyway thats my MadCap rant.

Thanks for the input BTA. We pretty much have shown that reserve units are not around at this time. There would be National or Confederate troops and Commonalty Forces as we have shown. Elite Forces like the Liao Rangers also are present. Home Guard formations would be available at this time much like Terran SDFs. Glad you like Capellan Counting, it is a nice concept for the book. Wink

Quote from: lrose on April 12, 2009, 02:01:58 AM
Actually I think FM:CC either intentionally retconned the HLSB or whoever wrote the FM misread the HLSB and didn't see that the date was 2799. I have no problem have a few less regiments in 2785 and building to 129 in 2799.  Or having 129 in 2785 and going down from there.

Certainly, I agree with you on those points wholeheartedly. The reason I keep going back to the 129 number is a stubborn attitude present in the Liao spirit that we should not forget when assembling this report.

Quote from: lrose on April 12, 2009, 02:01:58 AM
Not much to the reference- it says:
In 2808 the First and Fifth Regiments were transferred to the Capellan Frontier where they helped defeat a third Liao attempt to invade the planet Oriente. In the process the 1st Hussars destroyed the 41st Capellan Heavy Assault Battalion, a crack Liao Unit

Ah well that is twenty plus years from 2785 so alot could happen between then and now.

How did you guys like the Celestial Hand as a Capellan Hussar regiment?

BTW, gonna have the TBG go to the high end at 18 regiments. That still keeps the average for all 6 Commonalty Forces at 14 regiments each which is what St. Ives has. Works nicely.

So numbers wise we have 121 of 129 regiments accounted for.

FirstStarLord

Sorry to double post, but I have some interesting news. On pg. 244 of TRO 3075 there is a mention of another Capellan regiment: the Fifteenth Sian Dragoons. I don't know how that fits into our current plans, but its there.

Rainbow 6

If the CCAF count the Northwind Highlander Regiments towards there 129 regiment strength would they also count the 3rd Kearny Highlanders & Stewart's Highlanders? (making 123)

Also if there is evidence of the Regimnets that make up Hampton's Hessens existing how about finding some way of putting them in as house units but, maybe as part of the Tikonov Border Guards. (making 126)

I'm assuming the CCAF counts chartered mercenaries as part of there 129 regiment strength, in which case you could add the 15th Dracon to the list. (making 127)

Takiro

Quote from: FirstStarLord on April 12, 2009, 05:56:46 AM
Make them masters of guerrilla warfare, the forefathers of modern Capellan defensive tactics. Their intial belligerence towards Capellan rule put them forever under the thumb of the Maskirovka. Only through dedicated and unquestioning service to the CCAF can each generation ever hope to prove their worthiness for citizenship.

I don't see the Preston relationship with the Confederation being adversarial. Here is what we know, Preston is one jump away from Sian but it is on the Capellan side of the border. I was thinking that Preston was a key stopover between those two important worlds way back when. They had a high population and proved to be in a strategically vital location making them excellent recruits of the Capellan Hegemony. I don't see any wars between Sian and Capella early on though. Although Hexare is another world that is nearby and related to the Capellan Hussars? Any similarities there? They could be friendly rivals of the Highlanders each striving to prove themselves better. Anyway I figure what ever Preston's importance was it has been gradually diminshing. I don't see their specialty being defensive warfare. Marines? What else is left?

Quote from: FirstStarLord on April 12, 2009, 05:56:46 AM
It's a good name, but maybe its role should be redefined. Perhaps it should represent the unbreakable bond between the Capellan people and the will of the Chancellor. In that role it is the regiment called out to defend the most critical planets. That would explain why of all of the Hussars units, it became the only one to be destroyed before the 4th SW.

The Celestial Hand sounds good. Wink

Quote from: FirstStarLord on April 12, 2009, 07:48:37 AM
Sorry to double post, but I have some interesting news. On pg. 244 of TRO 3075 there is a mention of another Capellan regiment: the Fifteenth Sian Dragoons. I don't know how that fits into our current plans, but its there.

Good spot FSL! Reading the section and the Mech in it seems like the Koschei is a premier heavy unit. However it is also fast and well armored. The warrior killed over a dozen BattleAxes and was a poster boy for fighting the Federated Suns. So it seems as though the 15th Sian Dragoons would be an excellent child unit of the SCA.

Quote from: lrose on April 12, 2009, 09:11:27 AM
That would be the name of the Sian Commanality forces. I would just use Sian Dragoons, rather then Sian Common Army.

I disagree. The SCA should be the overall name of the Provincial Force as the SIAC is in their area. The Sian Dragoons are simply analogous to the St. Ives Lancers, a child unit.

Quote from: Rainbow 6 on April 12, 2009, 11:28:53 AM
If the CCAF count the Northwind Highlander Regiments towards there 129 regiment strength would they also count the 3rd Kearny Highlanders & Stewart's Highlanders? (making 123)

Also if there is evidence of the Regimnets that make up Hampton's Hessens existing how about finding some way of putting them in as house units but, maybe as part of the Tikonov Border Guards. (making 126)

I'm assuming the CCAF counts chartered mercenaries as part of there 129 regiment strength, in which case you could add the 15th Dracon to the list. (making 127)

I will check into the mercenary numbering situation. What evidence exists that the Hessens are around at this time? Back when I researched the Mercenary Guild fanbook it seemed they were way off. The 258th Dragoons and other regiments are littered with hints of forerunners.

uote from: Takiro on April 12, 2009, 12:31:27 PM
I will check into the mercenary numbering situation. What evidence exists that the Hessens are around at this time? Back when I researched the Mercenary Guild fanbook it seemed they were way off. The 258th Dragoons and other regiments are littered with hints of forerunners.

Looking back at Merc Sup 2 it's very vague when the original social club founded and when it developed into a merc unit.  Since there is nothing concrete we can put their formation later in the SW.

Quote from: Takiro on April 12, 2009, 02:05:57 PM
Baranov’s Regulars (8 regiments)
Faced with the prospect of returning Capellan nationals and those citizens who espoused Star League ideals polluting Liao military establishment a new unit was created to keep all the bad eggs in one basket. They are named for their commander and the Star League Regulars who now fight to uphold Liao’s rightful claim to the First Lordship. Their “foreign values” may have forever put them under the thumb of the Maskirovka. Only through dedicated and unquestioning service to the CCAF can these soldiers ever hope to prove their worthiness for citizenship. Despite the clash of military doctrines the Regulars are an invaluable force to the Chancellor.

Elements joined the Capellan Confederation
133rd Jump Infantry Division
202nd Mechanized Infantry Division (The Pride of Cuba)
147th Mechanized Infantry Division
265th Mechanized Infantry Division (Pride of Pittsburgh)
166th Mechanized Infantry Division (Red Diamond Division)
7th Jump Infantry Division

Add in this bit:
Dismal Disinherited formed in 2nd SW from CC mechwarriors who traced their heritage back to SLDF- maybe a house unit???  FM:Merc Rev p. 61

Not sure how useful it is but..