OBT Forum

wolfcannon

irose i understand your position, they could be an combined arms unit 1 batt Mech/1 batt armor/1 batt inf.
i could see that but i take that they had 237 regiments.  it also states in the House Davion sourcebook during the civil war of a large Fed Suns army that was split between Rostock/Alexander/Varney.   Rostock was based out of the Terran March i believe.   Varney had the Crucis March a i believe the Capellan March.   Alexander would eventually win over many regiments to his side and eventually join Rostock.  so i can see the Light Calvary having 237 regiments.  also a point to make out is that the Light Horse could have earned a questionable rating due to their actions during the civil war,   yes i am taking a broad view but with so little info.  i personally can see a combined arms army of this type before the reunifacation war.  also why would they not upgrade the Victoria and Aragon Lancers?  they have done so with the Avalon Hussars which started as a Terran armor regiment stationed on New Avalon.

FirstStarLord

Quote from: lrose on April 18, 2009, 01:32:04 AM
Because not every armored regiment was upgrade to a mech regiment.

Bingo. By the time the 1st SW rolled around, only a few regiments might have remained, the rest having been either converted to mechs, destroyed, or disbanded in the aftermath of the Edict of 2650. Perhaps overshadowed by more glamorous units created after them, the AFFS really did not seem to mind the eventual disbanding of this meta formation.

How this decline of the FSLC happened might be something we could expand on.

BlackTigerActual

I was planning on having one of the Tigers' cadre units become the 4th Crucis in 2790 if that helps.

Takiro

Still researching but I wanted to repost a UNR article that has bearing on our discussion.

Eye of the Tiger
New Avalon (Federated News Service)
September 1, 2785

The recent DCMS raid on Kesai IV, which was repulsed by our brave soldiers on planet, has caused some to question our military’s capabilities. While the First Prince himself admitted in a recent interview that he would like to see better performance in future conflicts he remained confident in the AFFS fighting ability. In fact many in the High Command laud their troops fighting spirit and interservice competitiveness. As a whole these officers claim this rivalry gives them an edge over any opponent. Some refer to warriors with this drive for success during a fight as having the “Eye of the Tiger”.

Whatever the case maybe the Federated Suns currently fields the largest military in the InnerSphere. While this numerical lead over our neighbors may exist on paper it is a tangible representation of the strength of the AFFS. Only the Draconis Combine, which regularly evaded Star League arms restrictions to grow its own military, can come close to matching this martial force. The Capellan Confederation with its poor industry and short sighted leadership struggles to keep pace with the other Great Houses of the InnerSphere. Both the Terran Republic and the Taurian Concordat are still rebuilding their armed forces from the devastating Amaris Crisis; neither seems to have much of a desire to fight us. Finally our weakest neighbor, the Outworlds Alliance, is busy avoiding a civilian catastrophe of its own and has no active military threat force.

The AFFS managed to achieve this grand military build up legally, unlike the Dragon, through clever expansion of existing militia forces. After the War of Davion Succession the need to upgrade the Federated Suns military was obvious for all to see. First Prince Richard Davion oversaw the passage of the Preparedness Act of 2735 which was the cornerstone of these efforts. This Act created the Davion Landwehr Program that required every citizen to undergo mandatory military training followed by a full term of national service in their respective planetary militia. By creating this vast pool of reservists while at the same time stockpiling arms in key locations across the realm Prince Davion successfully produced a massive army that didn’t violate any lawful Star League Edicts.

Prior to the breakdown of the Star League the AFFS was made up of three distinct ground combat groups. The first of these is the Regular Army which is made up of the Davion Guards, the Avalon Hussars, and the Ceti Hussars. These frontline forces are backed up by the bulk of the Federated Suns ground units known unofficially as Regional Forces. This group is made up of units like the Clovis Guards, the Syrtis Fusiliers, the Messengers of Shiva, the Kestrel Grenadiers, and the Franklin Gorgons. Joining these units drawn from the twenty two separate Combat Regions of the Federated Suns are the Training Cadres who serve as a proving ground for inexperienced soldiers destined for the Regular Army.

Following the dissolution of the Star League our military augmented its formidable might by recruiting former members of that once great organization. Many agreed to merge directly with the AFFS and swear an oath of fealty to House Davion. These personnel were incorporated into five new BattleMech regiments which included the 2nd and 3rd Ceti Hussars as well as the newly created Crucis Lancers and the Andalusian Cazadores. Several independent BattleMech companies like the Argyle Lancers and McKinnon’s Company are also part of this contingent. Finally Prince Davion has hired mercenaries, many formerly of the SLDF, to bolster our defenses further.

From the hard data provided here and from what we witnessed while compiling this report it appears that the concerns of a few critics are unfounded. Perhaps there are a couple of minor issues facing the AFFS but nothing that would show abject weakness to any of our enemies. I would like to thank the High Command for their permission to investigate several areas of interest and for their high level of cooperation. Our access to this colossus was virtually unrestricted and it was a pleasure to tour the finest military in known space. Everyone should know that our armed forces stand ready to defend our nation and all of its rightful claims.

Quote from: Takiro on May 04, 2009, 01:00:07 AM
Armed Forces of the Federated Suns
135+ BattleMech Regiments (as of 2785)

Regular Army (40 regiments)
   The following units of the Regular Army I can already confirm. These national commands seem to be the easiest to account for because they carried over to 3025. The Andalusian Cazadores are a BTSD creation already hinted at in FM TR 2785 that replaces the Deneb Light Cavalry.
Davion Guards (8 regiments)
Avalon Hussars (26 regiments)
Ceti Hussars (3 regiments)
Crucis Lancers (2 regiments)
Andalusian Cazadores (1 regiment)

The Crucis Lancers should be listed as 2 regiments plus more forming- the 1st & 2nd trained several other regiments early in the SWs.

We also have another potential organization- the Avalon Borderers we know the 2nd was destroyed in 2960 (HDSB p. 89) I have no other references for them and so I don't know if they existed in 2785 or how big they would be.

Quote
Training Cadres (7 regiments?)
   Again if we use the DCMS example that has approximately 5% of your total force reserved for these formations. As our target number for the AFFS is nearly 140 Mech regiments that could mean as many as 7 regiments could be training formations. The only large school that certainly uses these units is Albion. Are there others likely smaller? Of course we need to assemble a list of Federated Suns Military Academies

Keep in mind that the training battalions like the Kittery Battalion were developed by Hanse Davion and would not exist at this time- only units associated with an Academy would exist.

Quote
Regional Commands (60+ regiments?)
   You can see the current arrangement (as of 2785) of Davion Marches and their twenty two separate Combat Regions on Fanmap 01. These forces I believe form the bulk of the AFFS at this time. If you look and agree with the rest of my math then this could mean as many as 60+ Mech Regiments spread over the 22 Combat Regions of the Federated Suns. An average of 3 Mech Regiments per Combat Region. The UNR news article above says “This group is made up of units like the Clovis Guards, the Syrtis Fusiliers, the Messengers of Shiva, the Kestrel Grenadiers, and the Franklin Gorgons.” Thoughts?

I have no problem with the numbers- but we should probably downplay the regional aspect at this point- unts like the Syrtis Fusiliers were absorbed into the AFFS following the Davion Civil War- then again during the SWs we see the rise of units like the Kathil Dragoons and New Iversaan Chasseurs who blur the line the between private armies and federal forces.  The Messangers of Shiva work- they later became the Islamabad CMM (they may already go by that name in 2785 based on my research).  Didn't we make the Franklin Gorgons a merc unit?



Quote
Independent Regiments (5-6 regiments?)
   Two commands of note the Argyle Lancers (originally a company of SLDF troops) and McKinnon’s Company (another SLDF company eventually becomes the Fox’s Teeth and the 7th Crucis Lancers) are hardly regimental size. While I’m sure these commands exist at this time I just question their size. Perhaps as little as 5-6 regiments as of 2785??

I wonder if the Argyle Lancers and McKinnons Company are the 2 notable exceptions to all of the SLDF forces joining the Crucis Lancers.  It is possible that the FS did not have any independent regiments at this time.


Quote
March Militias (22 regiments?)
   Do they exist in 2785? I’m pretty sure PDZs weren’t created later as a result of the debacles of this conflict and as a result the March Militia reference could be suspect. However if they do exist at this time then we can pencil in 22 Mech Regiments, one for each Combat Region. Pretty easy to do if we agree that they exist.

We do have a contradiction here to work out - the Capellan March and Draconis March both were organized into Combat Regions at this point- the PDZs did not come into existance later - largely due to the way the DC tore into the FS through the Clovis Combat Region- but FM:FS talks about the March Militas being formed before the SL era from the strongest militia forces in each PDZ (FM:FS p. 108). What I would suggest is that we create a March Militia system composed of regional units - such as the Messengers of Shiva or the Clovis Guards. But these are very irregular forces- for example the Messengers of Shiva may have 3 regiments, while the Savonburg Combat Region only has a single regiment. Following the reorganization of the FS into PDZs, the March Militias could be standardized into their current organization. Maybe the Kestral Grenadiers started out this way with several regiments and when the PDZs were formed part of them became a march militia and the rest became a front line unit.

Takiro

Quote from: lrose on May 04, 2009, 01:59:04 AM
The Crucis Lancers should be listed as 2 regiments plus more forming- the 1st & 2nd trained several other regiments early in the SWs.

Very true Irose, several Lancer commands will come together over the first years of the Succession War. We should note the 2 regiments training or being split up to form other Lancer units.

Quote from: lrose on May 04, 2009, 01:59:04 AM
We also have another potential organization- the Avalon Borderers we know the 2nd was destroyed in 2960 (HDSB p. 89) I have no other references for them and so I don't know if they existed in 2785 or how big they would be.

I did see that in your notes. I would propose that the Avalon Borderers are the Regional Command of the New Avalon Combat Region.

Quote from: lrose on May 04, 2009, 01:59:04 AM
Keep in mind that the training battalions like the Kittery Battalion were developed by Hanse Davion and would not exist at this time- only units associated with an Academy would exist.

Yup, we still have to list all Davion Military Academies of 2785. Maybe we could lump forming units in this area as well. Not sure on that though.

Quote from: lrose on May 04, 2009, 01:59:04 AM
I have no problem with the numbers- but we should probably downplay the regional aspect at this point- unts like the Syrtis Fusiliers were absorbed into the AFFS following the Davion Civil War- then again during the SWs we see the rise of units like the Kathil Dragoons and New Iversaan Chasseurs who blur the line the between private armies and federal forces.  The Messangers of Shiva work- they later became the Islamabad CMM (they may already go by that name in 2785 based on my research).  Didn't we make the Franklin Gorgons a merc unit?

I wonder if some of the Regional Commands account for the growth of those private armies. Meaning I doubt they were all destroyed but you still need to reform your AFFS. Instead of keeping the problem units on why not break them down. Some of these returning soldiers could then form the Ducal Units in question.

The Franklin Gorgons are not a merc units perhaps your thinking of the Doughboys which we did make mercs. I was thinking Franklin Combat Region.

Quote from: lrose on May 04, 2009, 01:59:04 AM
I wonder if the Argyle Lancers and McKinnons Company are the 2 notable exceptions to all of the SLDF forces joining the Crucis Lancers.  It is possible that the FS did not have any independent regiments at this time.

The evidence suggests that there were independent units at this time just not that large. Do we have any other units that would fit here?

Quote from: lrose on May 04, 2009, 01:59:04 AM
We do have a contradiction here to work out - the Capellan March and Draconis March both were organized into Combat Regions at this point- the PDZs did not come into existance later - largely due to the way the DC tore into the FS through the Clovis Combat Region- but FM:FS talks about the March Militas being formed before the SL era from the strongest militia forces in each PDZ (FM:FS p. 108). What I would suggest is that we create a March Militia system composed of regional units - such as the Messengers of Shiva or the Clovis Guards. But these are very irregular forces- for example the Messengers of Shiva may have 3 regiments, while the Savonburg Combat Region only has a single regiment. Following the reorganization of the FS into PDZs, the March Militias could be standardized into their current organization. Maybe the Kestral Grenadiers started out this way with several regiments and when the PDZs were formed part of them became a march militia and the rest became a front line unit.

Yeah I will have to do more research and get more input here. How did the Davion Landwehr Program play in here? Were only a third of these units active at any one time?

Quote from: FirstStarLord on May 04, 2009, 02:15:33 AM
The March Militias exist in 2785, there is really no disputing it. FM: FS states they were formed before the Star League era, and no other source has ever contridicted that statement. Looking at the borders that existed in just after the 1st SW (from HB: HD) gives me the impression that around 25 to 30 such regiments existed before the war. Most would have been stationed in the Draconis and Crucis Marches, as the Capellan march was still a relatively small part of the FS at that time. They also would have had multiple armor, infantry and other combat support elements as a part of their order of battle, but since this was a good century before the AFFS started focusing on combined arms tactics, their ability to use all of their resources would have been limited.

I would go with 22 Mech regiments, as the core of course, if this is the case. It is per map and canon information which has 22 Combat Regions making up the Federated Suns in 2785.

Quote from: FirstStarLord on May 04, 2009, 02:15:33 AM
Also, I doubt that there would be some sort of formal division between the Regular Army units recruited nationally and those who were raised from specific marches or combat regions. The Syrtis Fusiliers and Robinson Rangers are always depicted as Regular Army units in canon, so I don't see why that should be changed. The problem of regionalism in the AFFS is one that only manifests itself on the field of battle and in the courts of the nobility. As far as Prince Davion and his advisors know it does not exist, nor would they support it if they were aware. Afterall, the whole point of Alexander Davion's reforms was to prevent an AFFS balkanized by provincial loyalties from ever happening again. Too bad for his descendents he failed at that task.

I would have to disagree with you on this point FSL. The entries concerning the Clovis Guards in HDSB seem to indicate the existance of these Regional Commands which are part of the AFFS. This isn't to say they are FWL like independent minded. They are part and parcell of the AFFS but just so overly concerned with protecting their turf that they fail to see the big picture. The Regular Army just denotes a force that is stationed throughout the realm rather than just in one region.

Rainbow 6


AFFS military Academies 2785 other than Albion:-

NAMA - became NAIS and expanded in 3020's
Sakhara Academy
Battle Academy of Robinson
Warrior's Hall New Syrtis
Kilbourne Academy
Filtvelt Academy
Point Barrow Academy

That's it i think, Goshen is created later in the succession wars.

Edit got Goshen & Sakhara back to front.