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Author Topic: Sell Me: Land Air Mechs  (Read 653 times)

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JPArbiter

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Sell Me: Land Air Mechs
« on: September 10, 2014, 09:15:40 PM »
I need help guys.  I need to feel like I did not twice make a massive mistake in supporting bringing back LAMs to the Battletech tabletop game they way I have.  After TRO 3085 was released and the Mk I LAMs came out, with their awesome trimodal artwork, I found myself at a crossroads.  up to that point I felt that LAMs should be cosigned to the dust bin of the games history, forever out of reach thanks to artwork issues.  the new Artwork and new rules from Record sheets 3085 gave me hope however.  about two years ago I spearheaded a fan financing effort to bring the Stinger, Wasp, and Phoenix Hawk LAMs back to the Miniatures world in 3085 form.  a year later Iron Wind Metals launched a Kickstarter to finish that job and bring uss the Word of Blake Celestials and, ultimately, bridge the funding gap that was the Mk Is initial fund raising.  without discussing how much funding I gave, I will only say there is a very significant amount.

in those two years, as more and more information has trickled down, I feel I made a huge mistake.  There are people who advocate for LAMs to return to the game as anything more then a curiosity, and others who try to use them every chance they get.  there are people who argue ad nasueum that "there is no logical game mechanics reason" to deny LAMs access to Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous, Reflective etc armor, orXL Engines, others who openly defy the current prototype rules and instead opt for the construction rules found in Aerotech 1.

I feel I fed a troll, and I owe the Battletech community an apology for that.  in my blind hubris, I forgot how LAMs can, will and have been abused in the past, and feel that by action and example, I have led the way in making it easier for a small group of people to abuse other players.

Did I make a huge mistake?  tell me please.  cause all I see are a bunch of trolls who espouse the strategic value of LAMs to exploit them in a tactical game for the sake of pathetically easy wins,

how would you play LAMs, what is the most you would bring to a table if your opponent brings none, would you ever use anything but an elite rated pilot in a LAM? do you feel Lams are perfectly balanced, overbalanced or OP?
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TigerShark

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Re: Sell Me: Land Air Mechs
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2014, 02:30:27 AM »
They, themselves, are not "OP" or under-powered. It's up to the GM (or the players as a group -- depends on how you run your campaign) to create a scenario where the LAMs will be properly balanced. For example, if you use TW rules, the Aerospace Fighter mode is completely broken. Most 'Mechs cannot hit them and aren't equipped for AA duty. But if you bother to read and use the rules for StratOps AA, then that might be ok.

Like any piece of tech, it can appear "broken" if a certain rule set is enforced. C3 and C3i seemed pretty nasty when the spotter could transmit data without line-of-sight. Now that it's been errata'd out of existence, the spotter must have LOS and it's fair. The same goes for LAMs and their various modes. There's nothing wrong with the tech; it's how you manage it.
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Red Pins

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Re: Sell Me: Land Air Mechs
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2014, 05:13:48 AM »
Bah.

Read the rules, agree on the rules, enforce the rules.  If more people had, they never would have gained this reputation for being unbalanced.

House rules help too, but I've been playing almost exclusively with my AUs Permanent AirMechs for so long I never bothered to read the new rules and didn't even twitch at the updates to the rules.  Since I don't have a local opponent, it's kind of moot, now.
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Gabriel

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Re: Sell Me: Land Air Mechs
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2014, 12:17:51 AM »
Look you did not make a mistake. You just forgot some will abuse Lam's not everyone in the universe.
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Fear is our most powerful weapon and a Heavy Regiment of Von Rohrs Battlemech's is a very close second.-attributed to Kozo Von Rohrs
Will of Iron,Nerves of Steel,Heart of Gold,Balls of Brass... No wonder I set off metal detectors.Death or Compliance now that's not to much to ask for,is it?

skiltao

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Re: Sell Me: Land Air Mechs
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2014, 11:26:25 AM »
Are the art and minis valuable and pleasant in their own right? If so, that may be enough to make the endeavor worthwhile.

Or do you feel they only have value when tied to the fiction and sourcebooks? Then maybe it's less worthwhile, because sourcebooks are starting to leave the Jihad behind.

The people (at least, in those discussions I've read or participated) who espouse strategic use don't seem to be the same ones looking to exploit them on tabletop. People always make custom units, and there are always people who will prefer one ruleset over another; I don't think the fan financing changed that. If anything, I've noticed a decline in LAM interest online since the official rules were posted. Getting involved has probably made you more aware of LAM activity than you would be otherwise... although, if you have a player who is causing LAM problems for you locally, I can see how that might cause some regret.

The biggest issue with LAMs was their ability to dictate range and generate high Target Movement Modifiers. I don't know how well the new rules address that issue.

Quote from: JPArbiter on September 10, 2014, 09:15:40 PM
how would you play LAMs, what is the most you would bring to a table if your opponent brings none, would you ever use anything but an elite rated pilot in a LAM? do you feel Lams are perfectly balanced, overbalanced or OP?

Last time I played with LAMs was a Stinger LAM in a 1v1 duel against a Valkyrie in heavy woods, with proper flight rules enforced. (This was prior to new LAM rules coming out.) Didn't care for how it went; decided that neither LAMs nor heavy woods maps were suitable for regular play.

I'm not against playing LAMs again, but they (like massed infantry) should probably be decided at the same time you're deciding play area, objectives, and other "scenario" features--before players select the rest of their forces. I'm not sure at the moment what "balance" would be needed; one guy, who seems to have playtested his method reasonably well, recommends summing the 'Mech mode BV and ASF mode BV together to get an LAM BV. (I'd eyeball instead of using BV, relying on Flak, Area Effect weapons or other similar countermeasures, but whatever.)

I'd assign pilot skillss the same way normal 'Mechs do, whatever that method might be. If it's broken, then it's broken for normal 'Mechs too, and should be changed.
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TigerShark

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Re: Sell Me: Land Air Mechs
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2014, 11:24:55 PM »
It might have been worth making a rule (in canon) that the minimum skill needed to pilot a LAM is 3, due to the complexities of the gear being manipulated. Each Piloting skill above 3 incurs an additional +1 penalty to PSRs. Something like that to show how complex and strange LAMs are in combining unrelated skills.
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Dread Moores

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Re: Sell Me: Land Air Mechs
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2014, 12:39:53 AM »
It's all your fault. Everything is definitely unbalanced entirely because of you.

What?! How often will I get to blame something on the Arbiter? You think I'm passing this chance up?
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Gabriel

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Re: Sell Me: Land Air Mechs
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2014, 12:43:28 AM »
Cheap Shot But since it your only chance TAKE IT AND RUN LIKE THE COPS OR THE WORD OF BLAKE IS CHASING YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Fear is our most powerful weapon and a Heavy Regiment of Von Rohrs Battlemech's is a very close second.-attributed to Kozo Von Rohrs
Will of Iron,Nerves of Steel,Heart of Gold,Balls of Brass... No wonder I set off metal detectors.Death or Compliance now that's not to much to ask for,is it?

Dread Moores

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Re: Sell Me: Land Air Mechs
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2014, 08:49:12 AM »
*queues up Yakety Sax*
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