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Author Topic: Size of a Lance  (Read 4399 times)

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JPArbiter

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Re: Size of a Lance
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2012, 10:27:59 AM »

Now this devolves to a comparison between real life and BattleTech. Clearly BattleTech's rules lose to the common sense of real life. That said, the Bay Rules still work for game purposes and there are other rules for Bay changes. So exchanges are possible. Do they fit real world possibilities or designs? Probably not. On their own merits I think they fit campaign rules well.

Funny, I think they absolutely wreck campaign rules. Can you find a single DropShip that can transport motorized infantry? Or mechanized infantry? There's only a minor handful that transport jump infantry. BA carriers? Not very many, and they are all virtually faction-specific designs. That's the issue I have with non-modular infantry bays. Without serious changes or customizations, it absolutely kills a campaign on transport needs.

That entire issue of needing to reconfigure bays in a shipyard or even needing more DropShips created (or more updated DropShips) is easily resolved by one tiny fix. "So that Condor that has a Bay for 12 foot platoons? Okay, that's a 60 ton infantry bay. The crew can reconfigure it to handle any kind of infantry, up to a max of 60 tons. Use the rules for how much space infantry requires as found in StratOps." Done. How does that make less sense than requiring dozens of new DropShips or custom refits? Aerospace, particularly non-fighters or WarShips, is the red-headed stepchild of BT. This one tiny fix covers one of the massive gaps, without changing anything else for any other combat arm. It's not about reality versus Battletech, but simply an extension of a rule that already exists in the canon construction rules.

if you are also looking at some of the mechanized forcews from TRO 3085 (and thier massive size in some cases.) the handwavium work around is pretty simple.  the bay handles the troops, primary equipment (thier rifles and gear) and then a dropships generic cargo is used for things like field guns, APCs etc.

lets take the Field Gun Infantry from pp 215 of TRO 3085 for example.  the Standard Bay would accommodate the 22 troopers, thier personal effects, racks, ammunition lockers, and charge ports for their Auto Rifles and Support PPCs.  in Cargo Hold three however is where the tracked vehicles and thier 6 44mm (making up a caliber) Light Auto-cannons and their parts and ammunition are stored.

Generic Cargo Space is used to allow for this kind of overflow.
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Bad_Syntax

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Re: Size of a Lance
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2012, 04:56:49 PM »

I put this spreadsheet together for Zeta Battalion, as it has all elements listed in the Wolf Dragoons source book.

You will see I made several assumptions as to what heavy replacemnt parts would be carried, based on what Mechs are deployed. I would be interested to see what others think of my assumptions, as I have never played a long table top campaign.

This spreadsheet is for an solid week of fighting.

That's good stuff, but it is VERY difficult to determine if it is right or wrong... in same cases it may be far under, in other cases far over.  Logistics is the art of war, not combat :)

To properly predict supply usage we need to do a few things.

First, organize supply (using NATO classes at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classes_of_supply):
- Consumables (the most easily predicted type, food/water/fuel/coolant, Class I/II/III)
- Equipment (the most expensive type, weapons/engines/gyros/heat sinks, Class IV)
- Ammunition (the most used type, Class V)
- Armor/Structure  (most often needed, lets say Class IV again, but consumed faster)

Then, we need to determine the amount of time engaged.  This determines the Ammunition consumption rate.  Fuel isn't much of an issue, but can be in ICE units, and should be included.  Longer range weapons go empty before faster ranged ones, except perhaps on faster units with shorter ranged equipment (maybe a range+MP formula for calculating consumption rates).  For each weapon, I'd just give a "turns shooting per engagement" for this, with engagements being maybe 12 turns on average.

Then, we need to determine the commitment level.  This will determine how much armor/structure damage (and then equipment damage) a unit will take before it withdraws from battle, or is destroyed.  This number is simply a percentage of armor/structure that when achieved, the unit runs off.

If we know those 2 values, its pretty easy to determine how much of all 4 types of supply we will require, assuming zero salvage.  You could use battleforce to figure out the offensive potential of a unit over 15 turns for the first value to determine how much you affect your enemy, and if your enemy's armor/structure percentage is surpassed you make the unit withdraw (with possible losses).  The enemy does the same thing, and in some cases it could mean almost mutual annihilation, or both units take hardly any damage but use up all their AC2 ammo and run off.

If we know the amount of ammo we need per time period, we can figure out how many techs will be needed to install it.  If we know how much armor/equipment we are going through, we can again calculate the man-hours required to support it.

I *really* think that tracking the types of engines/gyros/ammo within a campaign system are, well, mind numbing and will rip the fun right out of a game.  Instead, if I was doing a campaign, I'd just use tons and assume the S4 shop (logistics) knows the exact types of what are required.  Engines take 3 hits, so a 400 engine that is 52.5 tons (XL wouldn't help this number), needs 17.5 tons of "engine parts" to replace each engine hit.  However if done on a computer, all the detail is awesome, though I'm betting it'd take a dozen campaigns or more before you end up without too many of one part, and not enough of another, at least as a rule as shortages will always happen a bit.

It'll be awesome when I finish my code to fix stuff and track logistics in the BTU :)

Funny thing about Wolf's Dragoons, though always called Elite, in 3028 they were actually mostly Veteran (Beta/Zeta and some of the support units were Elite, the rest were only Veteran).  Hardly the "best of the inner sphere", though obviously their leaders were (funny how they were clanners, who are hardly leaders, haha)
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Blacknova

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Re: Size of a Lance
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2012, 07:02:39 PM »

I agree with your thinking there.  Perhaps what I came up with is more of a standard basic load.

"Hey look, we are off to fight for six weeks."

"OK, stack in six standard loads and then we can add a few frills once that is all added up."
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Dread Moores

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Re: Size of a Lance
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2012, 01:01:44 AM »

lets take the Field Gun Infantry from pp 215 of TRO 3085 for example.  the Standard Bay would accommodate the 22 troopers, thier personal effects, racks, ammunition lockers, and charge ports for their Auto Rifles and Support PPCs.  in Cargo Hold three however is where the tracked vehicles and thier 6 44mm (making up a caliber) Light Auto-cannons and their parts and ammunition are stored.

Generic Cargo Space is used to allow for this kind of overflow.

I really wish that would work under canon rules. Unfortunately, according to TM, bays are specific. If they are mechanized, they need a mechanized bay. They cannot use a foot platoon bay, with or without their weapons or gear. And you can't store people in generic cargo bays, as there is no life support factored in.

Tweaking off canon rules? Yeah, that definitely works. But as it stands currently, there isn't a single canon DropShip that can transport mechanized infantry (or motorized, off the top of my head). Even Jump Infantry is rather difficult to find transport for. Bays are an absolute mess in canon units and record sheets in particular, especially considering that virtually every combat vehicle lists as having infantry bays, when they actually have infantry compartments. There's some very important differences. It's also incredibly weird that an exception for "unified" infantry bays is made for combat vehicles only.

It won't matter in the end (easy enough to find your own homebrew solutions, as you pointed out above), but it's something I'd really love to see addressed.
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Re: Size of a Lance
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2012, 10:15:45 AM »

Unfortunately, according to TM, bays are specific. If they are mechanized, they need a mechanized bay. They cannot use a foot platoon bay, with or without their weapons or gear. And you can't store people in generic cargo bays, as there is no life support factored in.

That's not true. Any passenger of a DropShip can be assigned quarters in an Infantry Bay if the bay exists. These are spartan quarters for sure, but allowed. You can also add any type of equipment to a Cargo Bay and have those passengers assigned to an installed infantry bay - if room exists - as well. 

Meaning, any mechanized, motorized or jump infantry platoon can use an infantry bay for living quarters - only their equipment needs to be stored in a cargo bay. This slows offload from the DropShip - since dedicated Bays speed offload - but that's an optional campaign rule you can use outside of typical game play.


« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 04:16:13 PM by Knightmare »
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Dread Moores

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Re: Size of a Lance
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2012, 01:07:35 PM »

That's not true. Any passenger of a DropShip can be assigned quarters in an Infantry Bay if the bay exists. These are spartan quarters for sure, but allowed. You can also add any type of equipment to a Cargo Bay and have those passengers assigned to an installed infantry bay - room exists - as well.

Where am I missing that? Reading the bay descriptions in TM, it really seems to indicate that they are specific and passengers are quarters or nothing. I don't doubt it, I'm just not finding the reference that would help clear some things up. :)
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Knightmare

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Re: Size of a Lance
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2012, 02:08:25 PM »

See p. 43, SO.

I should add that you can just add people to Cargo Bays but consumables are required. Also, these people are literally camping out in the middle of a cargo bay. It's not exactly an ideal situation, but mercenary units (like the Camacho's Caballeros) often live it. SO also mentions how large infantry units will convert cargo to quarters and only enter infantry bays when it is time to deploy.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 04:20:06 PM by Knightmare »
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