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Author Topic: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)  (Read 27690 times)

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Takiro

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Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« on: July 17, 2010, 07:19:08 AM »

Well folks plenty of historical goodness? Implications are vast and a plenty and I have only skimmed it. First off let me tell you SPOILERS!!!















Stefan Amaris was confirmed by the people of the Hegemony in a relatively fair vote. ::)
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, 12:12:53 PM »

Stefan Amaris was confirmed by the people of the Hegemony in a relatively fair vote. ::)

Really? Fair?
This sounds incredible.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Hessian

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 12:45:08 PM »

Stefan Amaris was confirmed by the people of the Hegemony in a relatively fair vote. ::)

Hmmmm... Happened this vote before or after the throne room massacre of Christmas 2766?

Oh and by the way: According to http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,64346.msg1538884.html#msg1538884 over at CBT the WOB flagship Righteous Justice is/was a Farragut-class Battleship!!!

Ciao
Hessian

Note: edited an error regarding the date of the throne room massacre.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 01:41:01 PM by Hessian »
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CJvR

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 03:34:57 PM »

What I saw as most important was the section on Terra and specifically the part that shreds the Hegemony's self respect in that they happily voted the Usurper in.
Well it replaces one improbable event with another, the SLDF desertion makes more sense but the supposed vote doesn't so it is back to square one really. I suppose a figleaf could be made out of an alliance of all the non-Cameron cronies finally getting a shot at dynastic succession, Rim brutality angainst Cameron loyalists and a swift media blitz - Amaris was a Hegemony citizen IIRC so it wouldn't be an outright foreign usurpation. But it is a very small figleaf...
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Takiro

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2010, 09:45:53 PM »

Okay gang I’ve been reading Touring Terra which details historical events from the 20th century to present. TPTB have worked in their own interpretations of old canon drawing some new interesting conclusions.

The Terran Alliance is presented more as an alliance of sovereign states then ever before whose members were less independent as its bureaucracy grew out of control. Less Expansionist versus Liberals and more big government run amok that was more and more disconnected from the people.

Things got so bad that the last American President and an unknown number Senators were “lynched” in the final days of the Alliance as part of “liberation”.

The uber rich of Mars, Cray’s STL colony from ISP2, and New Dallas are all referred to again. India, Brazil, and America got the choice colonies closest to Terra so their impact on InnerSphere colonization was limited. Ultimately they were fanatical Hegemony supporters and destroyed during the Succession War.

I can’t believe HRAD couldn’t successfully develop paper prophylactics.

And then there is the disgusting comparison between James McKenna and Stefan Amaris whose elections are referred to as “fair”. They sully up the Hegemony’s Founder with a few mentions of early academy scandals but neglect the facts of the Usurper’s rise who pulls off a Katherine style takeover. No doubt TPTB would play devils advocate saying both men rose to power via military coups but come on! I guess Richard Cameron was an idiot and the High Council could nominate Amaris to the people but didn’t they hear about any of his deeds? The Usurper was Richard’s closest friend for god sake! Even if you heard none of the atrocities that relationship doesn’t exactly scream change for the better. Oh and what happened to all the other Cameron claimants who by law should at least be consulted on succession which is their rite. Yes they are all dead but wouldn’t you notice their absence??

More reading to come.
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Takiro

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2010, 08:32:01 AM »

There is more enjoyable talk of Hegemony greatness including women giving birth in their second century. 100 years plus having kids seems sort of nuts to me but hey I guess it is possible in this high science setting. We are also introduced to Count Chaffins of Seattle (the Pacific Northwest) and CEO of Boeing who successfully lobbies for the capital of the Star League only to get caught in scandal. He becomes the SL era Machiavelli writing On Politics while imprisoned for his crimes which is similar to The Prince.

The dance that is weaved in Terra in the Amaris Coup kind of boggles the mind. Essentially you are asked as the reader to forget about what you know of the Usurper and Kerensky replacing or revising it with this. Seems that old Stefan was many things to many different people including that drooling idiot Richard Cameron who is portrayed as a hated despot far removed from the daily struggles of life. I don’t know if Richard has now dropped to the point of an inbred royal but he isn’t doing well when it comes to revisionist history. Anywho Amaris who I remember introduced himself as a country bumpkin is now portrayed as intelligent and sensible “a man who pretended to be a fool to befriend the real fool”. This seems a bit much to me. Kerensky now rivals Victor for heroic lunacy and I must presume that he was the foil for the Usurper. In other words doing his logical best to carry out the insane orders of the Dope Cameron and being hated for it.

When Amaris deposes Richard and the Camerons in the same way McKenna deposed the Alliance (not my words folks) Kerensky is actually despised by the Terrans at first. Now Amaris does have the help of highly placed collaborators in the Hegemony but to receive more than two-thirds of the populace support seems a tad much. In any event the Terrans at first were now vigorous supporters of their new Director-General against Kerensky. BTW, the colonization of the Rim Worlds by large numbers of Hegemony citizens is canonized within this all putting a small feather in my cap.

This leads to the discussion of the Star League Civil War which I can appreciate somewhat. Kerensky and Amaris struggle for control of the Hegemony while the Houses made their own plans. Hegemony nobles who intermarried with InnerSphere families help to link Amaris with the Great Houses somewhat. The Lords of the High Council built their armies to eventually press their own claim no matter who won the war. Talk of Amaris being forced to claim the title of Emperor of the Star League on legal reasons (Camerons only could be the First Lord) seems a little forced. Again I remember the Usurper talking of an Amaris Empire not a Star League which is very different to me. No mention of my Second Lord suggestion which makes more sense.

It was only in the end that Amaris earned the hatred of the Terrans for open use of brutal force to maintain his crumbling base. Noble Guards are now mentioned among mercenaries as Amaris fanatics fighting to the very end for the Usurper long after public opinion turned. Deamarisification swept the Hegemony afterwards with anyone supporting the Usurper barred from service in the new government. The way this is portrayed is odd to me as it again makes the SLDF sound as a bystander – weren’t they the government by force, i.e. military occupation?

With even tacit supporters of Amaris banned the post liberation government was doomed to failure. The Hegemony could best hunt down these war criminals often competing with vigilantes but the planets of the nation seem to set their own agenda creating a basket case that Kerensky choose to leave. He again takes scorn for this action. I doubt he would press his own claim as First Lord which it seems he would have to do if you read this making it a much worse 1st Succession War. Me I’d go for neutrality as the Republic does in my AU if I were Kerensky and try to mediate the conflict. However he has now risen to such ineptitude that I doubt he or his buddy Victor could figure that out.

Back to reading!
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CJvR

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2010, 08:47:48 AM »

Any technological revelations - like a Caspar perhaps?

I noted a drone fighter record sheet, perhaps something that the TR could duplicate under SW1.
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Takiro

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2010, 09:29:34 AM »

Yes CJvR plenty of technological revelations including mobile structures. Remember my Submarine SDS well they basically have that along with the a mobile land SDS ala MechCommander I believe. Plus plenty of other stuff. Right now I'm focused on historical information that impacts our storyline.

Just read Terra Under ComStar which describes the era well. The canon Hegemony was so inept it boggles the mind. Chicago basically starved by government order as Keid, an agricultural world, got its foodstuffs. There was a corrupt corporate leader who claimed Keid was starving and naive officials in the central government who failed to discern the truth. The most infamous example was essentially corporate greed aided by bureaucratic stupidity of the highest order. ComStar was the only organization who could get things done on Terra and hence their setup for Silver Shield was perfect.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2010, 12:17:48 PM »

What about the atrocities done by Amaris and his troops?
They disappeared?
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2010, 04:34:56 PM »

Well the vote likely happened early in 2767 - at that point what was really known? His role in the Periphery Uprising was completely unknown and the Throne Massacre could have been concealed to an extent. "Hey what happened to all those Cameron candidates? Umm, they are dead tired." And he did have help from Quislings in the Hegemony government which includes the Hegemony (High) Council. After all he was Richard's best friend for years and could easily manipulate these positions by filling them with candidates he could control.
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Takiro

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 05:06:43 PM »

Interesting notes with warship production. Titan yards and industry are old but very capable. Could restore the InnerSphere merchant fleet after the Jihad quickly is a direct quote, also McKenna's original warship build is noted for impressive production numbers that can not be matched by the modern IS showing their poor space industry.
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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2010, 07:25:56 PM »

Thought I might jump in with an out of AU perspective.  I love what you guys do here and having not been part of the team, I hope I can help with trying to balance JHS Terra with this awsome AU.  I actually think JHST will add more than it takes away

I actually think this adds a nice reality to the whole image of the Star League.  Every source book that has looked at the Hegemony and the League has done so from a Rose Tinted glasses perspective, with JHS Terra being the first to look at the underbelly.  All govts have one and one that rules all of mankind will certainly have a dark one.

Study enough history and suddenly the SL sourcebook and others become little more than historical propaganda pieces.  This ugly side of the Hegemony and the League is much more in fitting with actions like the reunification war and the Hegemony/SL's massive armaments programs.  These were people who wanted to rule the known universe and would do what ever was required to ensure that.

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The dance that is weaved in Terra in the Amaris Coup kind of boggles the mind. Essentially you are asked as the reader to forget about what you know of the Usurper and Kerensky replacing or revising it with this.


Again, its a different perspective that put a human face on the high and mighty who have always been viewed as modern saints by many.  these were political animals, used to great power and wealth and would have first and foremost have wanted to protect thier personal standing.  Its human nature.

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Seems that old Stefan was many things to many different people including that drooling idiot Richard Cameron who is portrayed as a hated despot far removed from the daily struggles of life. I don’t know if Richard has now dropped to the point of an inbred royal but he isn’t doing well when it comes to revisionist history. Anywho Amaris who I remember introduced himself as a country bumpkin is now portrayed as intelligent and sensible “a man who pretended to be a fool to befriend the real fool”. This seems a bit much to me.


I think this is the first account of Amaris as he really was.  If your going to take down the SL Govt so you can ascend the throne, you had better be bloody well switched on.  All things to all men is what you want to be, in that way you can manipulate and control those around you whilst keeping largely clean, or apparently so. Later histories would focus on his poorer, stupider faces to paint him as badly as possible.

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Kerensky now rivals Victor for heroic lunacy and I must presume that he was the foil for the Usurper. In other words doing his logical best to carry out the insane orders of the Dope Cameron and being hated for it.

This would not be the first case in history of intelligent, but honour bound men, following a less than capable lord due to thier honour code and copping the flak for it.

Quote
When Amaris deposes Richard and the Camerons in the same way McKenna deposed the Alliance (not my words folks) Kerensky is actually despised by the Terrans at first.

Why not, he faied in his own mission as Regent to make something of Richard (well done Amaris), and has been killing the sons and daughters of the Hegemony in a bloody brush war on the fringes of civilisation.  He could have been seen as culpable for many of the recent setbacks in govt policy.

Quote
Now Amaris does have the help of highly placed collaborators in the Hegemony but to receive more than two-thirds of the populace support seems a tad much.

Not if you work the system, quickly and efficiently and use all those collaborators who owe you big.  With 10 years planning, bribing and suddenly presenting a viable alternative to 20 years of hopeless government whilst a major war is on...stranger things have happened.

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In any event the Terrans at first were now vigorous supporters of their new Director-General against Kerensky. BTW, the colonization of the Rim Worlds by large numbers of Hegemony citizens is canonized within this all putting a small feather in my cap.

Well done Sir.  However, if Kerensky was seen as an arse for what happended with Richard, and I'm sure Amaris's media arm made sure of that, then with Amaris calling politly for him to come home a join the team in peace but instead making what could be seen as a declaration of war on the Hegemony, I'm sure there were a lot of media confused people who started calling him an idiot.  Just think, Amaris and Friends, each day at 7.

Quote
This leads to the discussion of the Star League Civil War which I can appreciate somewhat. Kerensky and Amaris struggle for control of the Hegemony while the Houses made their own plans. Hegemony nobles who intermarried with InnerSphere families help to link Amaris with the Great Houses somewhat. The Lords of the High Council built their armies to eventually press their own claim no matter who won the war.

Very much so, when the mess hits the fan, its each power out for themselves.  Interests take hold over any high minded ideals.

Quote
Talk of Amaris being forced to claim the title of Emperor of the Star League on legal reasons (Camerons only could be the First Lord) seems a little forced. Again I remember the Usurper talking of an Amaris Empire not a Star League which is very different to me. No mention of my Second Lord suggestion which makes more sense.

Keeps it legal.  Opponents of Amaris, if he had gone for DG, could have attacked him on legal grounds.  and an Empire.  Maybe a few Terrans liked that. Time to teach the Houses a lesson maybe, could play well with some.

Quote
It was only in the end that Amaris earned the hatred of the Terrans for open use of brutal force to maintain his crumbling base. Noble Guards are now mentioned among mercenaries as Amaris fanatics fighting to the very end for the Usurper long after public opinion turned. Deamarisification swept the Hegemony afterwards with anyone supporting the Usurper barred from service in the new government. The way this is portrayed is odd to me as it again makes the SLDF sound as a bystander – weren’t they the government by force, i.e. military occupation?

Yes, the fickle public were probably royally pissed at both sides for bringing the first major war to the homeworlds and ruining thier high life.  The noble guards et al are those willing collaborators who are hitched to the wagon for better or for worse.  They have little chance due to open public support during the regime, but to go down with the ship.  Maybe they were bribed originally or came over as Amaris seemed the better chance.  In the end it would not matter.  I am not suprised the SLDF was a bystander, as they were not designed to be the govt.  They would have done what they could, but the old code of honour would liklely prevent them from stepping in to take control of the TH.  With the people turning on the govt, the war still on and the houses sniffing arround, it would have been chaos.  The SLDF was taking such horrendous losses, that their entire focus would have been on keeping the men in the line.  Thts where guys like Blake come in, but with the loss of the govt, he cannot do all that much.

Quote
With even tacit supporters of Amaris banned the post liberation government was doomed to failure. The Hegemony could best hunt down these war criminals often competing with vigilantes but the planets of the nation seem to set their own agenda creating a basket case that Kerensky choose to leave. He again takes scorn for this action.

Why not, in the peoples eyes, he failed with Richard, he brought on a massive and hugely destructive war, dropped the ball with regards to reconstruction, failed to get the house Lords to keep the SL going and then did not want to step in, take the reigns and fix the problems when he was the last one left who could.  It might not be all his fault, but public perception is rarely guided by rational thought.

Quote
I doubt he would press his own claim as First Lord which it seems he would have to do if you read this making it a much worse 1st Succession War. Me I’d go for neutrality as the Republic does in my AU if I were Kerensky and try to mediate the conflict. However he has now risen to such ineptitude that I doubt he or his buddy Victor could figure that out.

He saw the writing on the wall, war either way and a TH that was not overly fond of him. A man who's life, dedication and dreams have all been burnt by those he tried so nobelly and hard to do the best by.  Its little wonder that he left, I would have too.  Especially too, since the House Lords made it clear that they were not going to listen to him.

But in the end, you can keep most of this and not effect your AU.  Add a Time to Reflect chapter to Threat Assesments.  The Terran Republic looks back and what really happened.  Your new leaders stepped in early and kept the witch hunt to the top levels of the collaborators, making some fine examples, but giving the lower ranks a chance to mend the damage.  The action is not popular and leads to years of animosity and hard calls by the govt, but assures that the core worlds will recover and sets the frame work for the recovery once AK leaves.  He cannot see the repair happening fast enough and still dissolusioned leaves anyway.  By the end of the 1st War, the lower govt officials, now experinaced, have prooved themselves and repayed thier debt, as they resuce the Terran Republic and keep it as the bastion of strength and technology in the sphere as well as making sure the recovery worked.  By repairing all the damage Amaris and AK have done, they are seen as the true heros of the last 50 years.  the little guys that counted, always doing ther best for the people, despite thodds of those in power, aided by a massive media campaign.

Anyway, just a few thoughts that might help.  I actually think JHS Terra can add more to your AU than it will take away.

Really looking forwards to how you tie it all in eventually.

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2010, 11:12:13 AM »

Hmmm...Interesting thoughts Blacknova.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2010, 02:12:55 PM »

Why not, he faied in his own mission as Regent to make something of Richard (well done Amaris), and has been killing the sons and daughters of the Hegemony in a bloody brush war on the fringes of civilisation.  He could have been seen as culpable for many of the recent setbacks in govt policy.

Not sure.
It depends on how the government is seen: Richard was the one giving orders.
Was he seen as a puppet following Kerensky's orders?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 02:13:48 PM by Ice Hellion »
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

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JHS: Terra
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2010, 02:30:53 PM »

Anybody read this yet?

The section on Terra and the Hegemony is particularly interesting. Especially the bit as to why the people of the Terran Hegemony supported Amaris during the Coup and why the Hegemony flat out failed when the Coup ended.

I always wondered why it took ten years to conquer the Hegemony, well...now I know.  :D
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