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Author Topic: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)  (Read 27689 times)

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Hessian

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2010, 03:17:49 PM »

Regarding new equipment:
Is someone of those that purchased the pdf able and willing to enlighten me what a “Dragon’s Breath” Multiple Capital Missile Launch System is exactly?
Is this just a renamed AR-10 launcher?
Or is this something of an improved AR-10 that has the added ability to simultaneously launch several capital missiles at once? E.g. one Killer Whale, one White Shark and one Barracuda?

Thanks in advance.

Hessian


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Takiro

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Re: JHS: Terra
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2010, 04:41:52 PM »

Anybody read this yet?

The section on Terra and the Hegemony is particularly interesting. Especially the bit as to why the people of the Terran Hegemony supported Amaris during the Coup and why the Hegemony flat out failed when the Coup ended.

I always wondered why it took ten years to conquer the Hegemony, well...now I know.  :D

As you can see I have. ;)
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Blacknova

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2010, 05:35:52 PM »

Regarding new equipment:
Is someone of those that purchased the pdf able and willing to enlighten me what a “Dragon’s Breath” Multiple Capital Missile Launch System is exactly?
Is this just a renamed AR-10 launcher?
Or is this something of an improved AR-10 that has the added ability to simultaneously launch several capital missiles at once? E.g. one Killer Whale, one White Shark and one Barracuda?

Thanks in advance.

Hessian

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2010, 05:39:17 PM »

With even tacit supporters of Amaris banned the post liberation government was doomed to failure. The Hegemony could best hunt down these war criminals often competing with vigilantes but the planets of the nation seem to set their own agenda creating a basket case that Kerensky choose to leave. He again takes scorn for this action. I doubt he would press his own claim as First Lord which it seems he would have to do if you read this making it a much worse 1st Succession War. Me I’d go for neutrality as the Republic does in my AU if I were Kerensky and try to mediate the conflict. However he has now risen to such ineptitude that I doubt he or his buddy Victor could figure that out.

This is pretty standard stuff and makes pretty good sense. The final years of the Civil War were a bloody mess - politically, economically, socially, etc. If Kerensky really is upholding his interpretation of Star League law then there is virtually no way he was going to claim the mantle of First Lord.

Also, given is relative lack of political power in the High Council there was also no way for the Accords to be amended to remove the "Cameron as the First Lord" clause. Whoever would have inherited leadership of the Hegemony would have been placed in the position of ruling a battered nation without the benefit or protection of Star League laws or the Star League economy. Both disappeared when Richard II became worm food and Amaris's claim was rejected by Kerensky.

Kerensky was really in a bad spot. He could have remained behind, dismantled the SLDF, (because keeping them as the core of a new Hegemony wasn't going to happen) and became the next Director-General, but then the First Succession probably would have been worse. Again, remaining behind to mediate only works from a position of power and respect. Two things a Director-General Kerensky would not have during the First Succession. He's not Deborah Cameron, nor would he be leading the TH of Deborah's day.

Face it, no matter what, the TH's days were numbered after the Civil War.  

Deamarisification swept the Hegemony afterwards with anyone supporting the Usurper barred from service in the new government. The way this is portrayed is odd to me as it again makes the SLDF sound as a bystander – weren’t they the government by force, i.e. military occupation?

As for the vigilantes. That's also fairly standard stuff. Reprisals and summary executions are the norm in recently liberated nations. It's usually the liberator or occupier government (note govt.) who then becomes responsible for stemming civilian violence and restructuring a new government. Use modern day examples in Iraq and Afghanistan to see how the system functions. It's important to remember two things here.

1. The working portions of the TH government were summarily removed from office.
2. The SLDF is an army, not an army with the backing of a civilian government.

Even in Iraq, it's not the US Army that's restructuring the Iraqi government, it's diplomats and civilian functionaries from the US and other UN nations. These are career government employees and politicians who specialize in, well...government. The Hegemony kinda of slits its own throat here. The SLDF is an occupying army or sorts. They can provide food, water and help with physical reconstruction but they haven't the skill sets or the foggiest clue how to run or rebuild a nation. Not too mention that despite being a part of the Star League, the Terran Hegemony is still the Terran Hegemony. It was founded and run by Terrans. The SLDF is not Terran. It's the peacekeeping force of the U.N. Sure there are Terrans in the SLDF, but there is a distinction.

We can also look to modern examples to showcase what happens when an occupying army refuses to work with the locals. Whether they're ex-Iraqi Republican Guard or simple town mayors, sweeping the old regime away can have devastating consequences. Restructuring and rebuilding a national government can sometimes be about making uncomfortable compromises. In James McKenna's case, he was faced with a slightly similar situation like Kerensky. He was an occupying/liberating army without a government. Rather than throw his finger eleven at the people running the old corrupt government and try to go at it alone, he simply restructured what was on paper (avoiding Civil War) and used the preexisting human resources (minus the really bad apples) to rebuild a new one.

The Post-Civil War Hegemony civilian population (and who allowed them to do this?) dumped any and all government personnel. These are capable experts, people with the skill sets necessary to hold an interstellar nation together and they were summarily dismissed. Not only dismissed, but hunted in some cases. Think they went along quietly or stayed in the Hegemony? Talk about a serious brain-drain.

Modern nation building has run into the same problems (and unsurprisingly TPTB draw the connection.)    
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Takiro

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2010, 06:14:51 PM »

But in the end, you can keep most of this and not effect your AU.  Add a Time to Reflect chapter to Threat Assesments.  The Terran Republic looks back and what really happened.  Your new leaders stepped in early and kept the witch hunt to the top levels of the collaborators, making some fine examples, but giving the lower ranks a chance to mend the damage.  The action is not popular and leads to years of animosity and hard calls by the govt, but assures that the core worlds will recover and sets the frame work for the recovery once AK leaves.  He cannot see the repair happening fast enough and still dissolusioned leaves anyway.  By the end of the 1st War, the lower govt officials, now experinaced, have prooved themselves and repayed thier debt, as they resuce the Terran Republic and keep it as the bastion of strength and technology in the sphere as well as making sure the recovery worked.  By repairing all the damage Amaris and AK have done, they are seen as the true heros of the last 50 years.  the little guys that counted, always doing ther best for the people, despite thodds of those in power, aided by a massive media campaign.

Been thinking about this today. Instead of Threat Assessments I think Year in Review 2785 might be a better place for such an article. I'd basically like to look back at the election of Amaris and how it happened. Basically the Terrans were fooled by the Usurper and his quisling minions. I'd like to give some specifics of who exactly was arrested and held responsible for this high crime. Basically I'm getting at the Last Cameron's response to the deamarisification crisis and how it may have been different from canon. I.E. perhaps only those with knowledge or actively aided Amaris were held responsible and thanks to her and Sinclair others were sparred. Perhaps a rehabilitation or punishment allowed lesser players to clear their name and return to society. Finally I think Amanda tends to consider this a closed issue and it isn't really talked about - Terrans are concerned with defending their sovereign and maintaining their freedom.

Another issue we might want to expound on is the Chicago Food Crisis and what happened to the businessman on Keid.

P.S. wanted to include my response to Irose in another thread about the election of Amaris for additional information.

Quote
Well the way it worked for the Hegemony was a candidate for the Director-Generalship was nominated by the High (Hegemony) Council. The people could either approve or reject this nomination which in this contest they supposedly did by 2/3rds majority. Now I'm not aware of a Director candidate that was ever rejected by the people and I doubt the Council would nominate someone who might fail this final test.

Really I have no problem with the election as the High Council could have easily been manipulated by Amaris over the years he was Richard's closest friend. Richard would have picked these 9 individuals and Amaris could probably install a Councilor of his choice or more accurately one he could manipulate through their greed or other obvious weakness. These Councilors would IMO be the most infamous collobrators during the Coup nominating and backing Amaris for the post.

The people could then have been fooled by withholding the facts of the Coup (the Throne Massacre for example wouldn't have been revealed for one and other extreme actions - nuking the Black Watch a necessary evil - would be minimized). So while the election is disappointing to me I could see it happening and going Amaris however I have a major problem with it being called "fair" (truth was withheld by Amaris and his minions from the public) and the comparison to McKenna's original election is outrageous. However such revisionist history which makes an effort to transform good into evil and evil into not so bad is the disappointing norm today.
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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2010, 10:37:43 PM »

I agree.  Once you go into it, it is not all that bad for the AU.  It also has the depth to allow for additional background for the AU and shows how the TH/TR could truly have been rescued.  Could be the area for the creation of several important individuals in the AU.  The idea of Amanda locking the door at some point on recriminations is also improtant.  Much like McKenna did.
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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2010, 06:22:02 AM »

Well I already have individuals that are politically important whose resume isn't entire;y fleshed out. This can do that nicely. What do you think of the redemption idea? Could a crime be serious enough for individuals to join the army in order to regain their possessions or escape prison time?
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lrose

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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2010, 07:20:38 AM »

I would take a look at this the same way Patton did in post war germany - the worst of the Nazis- the SS, the senior command, those responsible for atrocities- they get punished, but as Patton saw it he needed the low to mid-level government officials (who were in all likeliness not members of the Nazi Party) to keep the government up and running since they knew how the system worked.  This wasn't popular with a lot of other US officials, but we can go with something like this for SD. 
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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2010, 08:19:45 AM »

Punnishemnt through service.  Low to mid level Government oficcials are expected to return 2 or 3 or 5 years service for every 1 they served under the Usuper.  That way all are aware of the punnishment and when that person has repaid thier debt.  Maybe make it Amadas idea and was the effectve door shutter on further recriminations.

Redemption through Dedicater Service
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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2010, 09:53:18 AM »

Punnishemnt through service.  Low to mid level Government oficcials are expected to return 2 or 3 or 5 years service for every 1 they served under the Usuper.  That way all are aware of the punnishment and when that person has repaid thier debt.  Maybe make it Amadas idea and was the effectve door shutter on further recriminations.

Redemption through Dedicater Service

The trick is not to punish them.

Keep in mind, the punishment is that their side "lost." They're technically under occupation and being told what to do. In the Terran Hegemony's case, you have to make the distinction between the people working for the government and the nobles. Most of the govt.'s worker, who sided with Amaris (or rather, just continued to work) did so because it was the right thing to do. Heads of State change hands all the time. It's a pretty common occurrence. Maybe not at the Hegemony's Director-General level, but the Hegemony does have a Congress. So even at the highest levels of Hegemony govt., the trappings of democracy make a showing. So, outside of a the top spots which change hands, does the rest of the governmental employees simply jump ship with the changing of the guard? I think not. Otherwise every four-to-eight years in the US we'd have a whole new crop of Postal Workers. Not too mention, a lengthy bit of time when the Postal system would cease to function as new workers were trained to replace the ones lost.

Post-WWII Germany worked the same way. To stave off chaos you have to either build or maintain a semi-balance of order as soon as possible. The more chaotic the transition, the greater the danger the transition will fail. (Communists, Insurgents, Local Powers, encroaching Great Houses, etc.) If the pre-existing govt. "works," simply remove the bad apples to keep the system running while you make subtle changes. Even if the people hate the idea of having "collaborators" working in their govt., an occupier should be smart enough to know that these people are important and that the civilian population, like any group of people, are scared and stupid animals.

The worst thing a restructuring govt. can do is simply dismiss effective workers simply because they worked. Not only does it create a self-imposed "brain drain," but it can create a whole new group of dissidents. Dissidents, who have insight into the inner working of their homeland and their govt. These people know where all the bodies are buried so to speak, so simply dismissing them is like playing with pandora's box.

Again, punishing people for just working to keep their country and their people safe is not the way to engender good will among the natives.

As for the Nobles, most did not support Amaris for altruistic reasons (like service.) Generally speaking, they backed his play for power. So you would treat many of these nobles like high ranking Nazis. However, their cases should be individually reviewed. Yes, this can take years, but the high ranking and visibly prominent collaborating Nobles can be dealt with in short order. (Even today we're still dealing with Nazi War Crimes...) This should stave off the worst of the population's desire for blood (assuming you maintain the pre-existing govt. and make a good show of the trials - civilians will be looking for revenge after all.) without (again) condemning a whole group of highly influential and important people. Many of the Hegemony's nobles were insanely wealthy. Sure you could strip all of them of their wealth and titles, but these people were invested throughout the Inner Sphere. (Thank you Star League economics.) You ship them off or incarcerate them and you'll lose access to their accumulated power. Not too mention add another motivated enemy to the growing list of persons and nations waiting to take your new provisional govt. down.

A light, but firm touch people. That's what's necessary. Canon spells it out for you (b/c TPTB pulled it from historical sources) - follow McKenna.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 09:56:40 AM by Knightmare »
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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2010, 01:59:10 PM »

By mere coincidence, I was reading in the train (going to a meeting for work) a book wrote after a symposium on German War Crimes and there was a chapter on the trials between 1944 and 2001 in France and a parallel with other European countries.

To make it short, not two countries did it the same way, depending on their need for revenge, their feeling of having been persecuted...
But most importantly (for our discussion as there were other interesting things in that chapter), the charges were gradually dropped as a reborn German Army was needed to participate in the defence of Europe against communism.

This is why I would agree with Knightmare: make a few (or more) examples with high ranked people (be them Nobles or governmental employees) and those really guilty of crimes and identified.
An amnesty for the others might be a bit too much but you would need some forgiveness act (except for the real criminals) to keep the Terran Republic working: forgiven but not forgotten should be the idea.

And beware of the vigilantes that will try to do justice by themselves.
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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2010, 06:57:38 PM »

Good thoughts guys but to quote National Treasure "Someone's got to go to prison, Ben". We can accept minor players simply doing their job and we can let everyone off the hook for voting for Amaris as they didn't have all the information but someone has got to be made an example of. Who pays the piper? Do the Houses have some of the Amaris criminals who escaped justice? If so do the Terrans launch SAS raids to capture them especially from House Kurita and Marik? Did the Centuran Accords address the return of these wanted individuals? I figure going after high profile escapees in foreign nations might take the attention off lower collabrators who are in large part forgiven for their past associations.
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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2010, 07:25:44 PM »

Do the Houses have some of the Amaris criminals who escaped justice? If so do the Terrans launch SAS raids to capture them especially from House Kurita and Marik? Did the Centuran Accords address the return of these wanted individuals? I figure going after high profile escapees in foreign nations might take the attention off lower collaborators who are in large part forgiven for their past associations.

...And antagonize the Great Houses in the process. Yea, that's a good idea. I thought the Republic was trying to avoid conflict? (Insert Sarcasm)  ;)

The Republic is already looking like easy pickings after the Civil War, so the last thing you want to do is draw public attention to the following: A.) Covert Raids B.) Embarrassing the Great Houses C.) Showing what the SAS is still capable of...

On a side note, you have to clarify some information, like what constitutes a War Criminal or Collaborator? We know the most blatant examples, like the Greenhaven Gestapo, but what about Nobles or civilians who supported Amaris's regime? You'll have to create a criteria or classifications of collaboration. We're not talking about the most flagrant offenders, like the ones who ordered mass executions or slave work gangs here. Those people, if they're in the hands of the Republic will most certainly be put on trial and punished. So no worries there. What we're talking about here is everyone else. 

Now I doubt the House Lords will agree to repatriate individuals deemed as criminals or collaborators by the Republic. Sure, on paper they might agree and they'll make a big public stink about "doing what's right," but if the individual in question is of any value the House Lords will simply feign innocence and deny they're harboring the individual. The US and the USSR did much the same for ex-Nazi scientists. Justice often takes a back seat to usefulness. Especially, when they're foreign criminals...with powerful skills or wealth.   

Now the Republic can covertly (if they find out) attempt to repatriate these criminals and bring them to justice, but the Republic runs the aforementioned risks listed in A., B. & C. 

Good thoughts guys but to quote National Treasure "Someone's got to go to prison, Ben". We can accept minor players simply doing their job and we can let everyone off the hook for voting for Amaris as they didn't have all the information but someone has got to be made an example of. Who pays the piper? 

 (Besides what I wrote above) The answer to who pays is easy: The most visibly guilty and who has already been caught. You can witch hunt all you want within the borders of the Republic, but it has to be carefully controlled with very specific criteria and completely run by the convening authority. Otherwise it leaves the hands of the authorities and lands squarely in the lap of the people. That is no bueno.   
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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2010, 08:08:00 PM »

Your right on Knightmare but let us exclude war criminals as military participants and talk about quislings as a political distinction. Willfully committing illegal activities for the Amaris regime would be one. If you shouldn't have done something for the Camerons then you certainly shouldn't have done it for the Usurper. Knowingly covering up the fact that the Camerons were murdered is a biggie that could go under treason. Basically you broke the public trust. What else would constitute a High Collaborator?

As for going after the bad guys it is something the disfunctional Hegemony couldn't do that the Republic can. Pursue the bad guys beyond the border. This might be a good angle on Terran aggression that some Houses can use in their rush to war. These individuals likely related or connected to someone in the Great Houses as many were - again see JHS Terra and several other canon sources. So no the Houses wouldn't want to give them up easily and the Terrans would still want them if important enough. Not sure how useful they would be - some might bring high tech but most would be wealthy individuals with high political connections shielding them from the consequences of their actions.

I just look at such Snatch and Grab Operations as a way to unify the Republic. Also it helps them move on and it gives them another reason to hate the House Lords.
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Re: Consequences of JHS Terra (SPOILERS)
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2010, 09:41:19 PM »

If you shouldn't have done something for the Camerons then you certainly shouldn't have done it for the Usurper. Knowingly covering up the fact that the Camerons were murdered is a biggie that could go under treason. Basically you broke the public trust. What else would constitute a High Collaborator?

I think that's too broad. I mean a communications operator who knew the information was false, but still aired the material fearing for his life or someone else shouldn't be considered a collaborator. Besides, how many govt. employees break the "public trust" on behalf of their govt. and simply aren't caught or exposed - doing so on behalf of the legal regime? Governments lie. The Hegemony would most certainly lie to their public if it was in their best interest to do.

Let's be honest and say the truth here. 

I just look at such Snatch and Grab Operations as a way to unify the Republic. Also it helps them move on and it gives them another reason to hate the House Lords.

Well, if the Republic government is stupid enough to conduct raids against the Great Houses to help unify the nation or redirect the energies of the people elsewhere then the Republic deserves to be invaded, its soldiers killed and the nation dissolved. I mean, running S&G's for what purpose? To appease the people? If public works, reconstruction and a wave of "real" trials can't do that, then the Republic's leadership should be lynched like the last American President for being downright stupid.

Not sure how useful they would be - some might bring high tech but most would be wealthy individuals with high political connections shielding them from the consequences of their actions.

I don't know about that. Amaris had every Hegemony scientist at his disposal working on new ways to kill SLDF troopers. Whether they were forced to or not, most of these people will be fearing for their lives after the Coup's end. It's probably why so many scientists and their families left with Kerensky. He understood their situation and offered sanctuary. The Exodus was probably a way better alternative to remaining in the ex-Hegemony and wait around for the town mob to execute you and your loved ones.

And it's also just as likely the same number of scientists and their families fled for the Great Houses. I'm sure the House Lords were more than happy to offer sanctuary and amnesty to any and all former Hegemony personnel within their borders. Heck, fleeing to the Great Houses is the second best alternative compared to heading into the great unknown with Kerensky....even with your Republic.

I mean try to remember that the Republic looks and feels like a war zone. It has just suffered terrible fighting and is a complicated mess. Even with the new Republican government and military working day and night to rebuild and repair the nation, its future will remain in doubt for many of its citizens.

Of course we know the Republic will survive, but for the survivors of the Coup the future of the Republic, especially in the short term, will look extremely bleak. Knowing that, if a House recruiter said, "hey I have a nice place for you and your family far away from all of this." Wouldn't you seriously consider it?   

Remember, people are scared animals. Even if the Republic's like, "Hey, everything is ok. You're not in trouble." Doesn't mean that translates into actual safety. As the Jews were loaded onto trains, the Nazis told them they were headed for safe relocation, not the ovens. Any person worth the skin on their backside will take anything the Republican government says with a heavy dose of skepticism. Only after time has passed and the Republic makes good on its claims of reconciliation will these scared individuals consider returning home. However, by then they may not be allowed, or be unable to, or even unwilling to return to their homeland.   
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