Topic: Consequences of Klondike (Read 26988 times)

Hessian · « **Reply #30 on:** June 08, 2010, 01:00:32 PM »

Quote from: Hessian on June 08, 2010, 11:52:15 AM

Quote from: Takiro on June 07, 2010, 03:56:24 PM
The ravenous supply needs of the SLDF. Lets face it they are likely buying up every piece of level 2 weapon tech that was produced not only for expansion but for every operation under the sun. I mean after all they are the largest most active military of the time and they'd want the choice gear obviously.

While the supply needs of the SLDF surely were immense I am not so sure that they would need to buy much material outside the Terran Hegemony. Page 131 of the Star League sourcebook informs us that "the Terran Hegemony was by far the largest manufacturer of weapons in the Star League. It had more than 300 manufacurers of major systems and hundreds of subsidiaries that made parts and lesser weapons."
I thus fail to see the overwhelming need to buy that much material from the member states.

Ciao
Hessian

Quick amendment to my own post above:
At least during the last 1 or 2 decades prior to the Periphery Uprising.

lrose · « **Reply #31 on:** June 08, 2010, 02:13:49 PM »

Quote from: Knightmare on June 08, 2010, 11:53:56 AM

From an equipment usage standpoint I'd say none of your aforementioned examples even come close to using or requiring the same level of material compared to the Periphery uprising and later. The First Hidden War took place between individual soldiers already assigned to preexisting units in their normal garrisons. These are individual 'Mechs being used with the same frequency as a Solaris Gladiator. Not exactly high requirements. Whereas the pirate attacks and periphery terrorism wasn't met with the reinforcement of regular SLDF Divisions, with division-level material requirements, but with SAS brigades who were more than likely outfitted solely with conventional gear. Outside of Operation Smother, which again only saw the deployment of half a dozen Division-sized units, the SLDF's material usage was more or less stagnant throughout the period.

I'm thinking more of the non-combat aspects- while the SAS was responsible for tracking down the rebels - the regular SLDF units almost certainly increased their patrol efforts, which would increase the wear and tear on their equipment. As this equipment wore out it would have to be replaced.

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The truth is that the SLDF would have brought more supplies to forward areas closer to the TC if it were expecting a long, drawn out conflict. Which initially Kerensky clearly did not think was going to occur.

I agree and will address this a little further down.

I agree with you assessment of where the equipment/materials for the SLDF came from.

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Prior to the Uprising, the SLDF is more or less stagnant. Their equipment/material usage and/or requirements (as a whole) is consistent. Their "peace time" logistics are firmly in place and their general deployment follows their peace time garrisons. The SLDF is receiving its materials/equipment from "normal" sources, (that percentage split I was talking about earlier) which are produced and stockpiled at peace time speed and in peace time locations. In my opinion this is the period when the Great Houses are upgrading their militaries in earnest and have the excess materials/equipment production to do so.

But at the the same time the SLDF was also undergoing a massive expansion from the 8 or so Corps that fought in the RW (and which probably represented a good portion of the former THAF) to 325 Infantry Divisions, 125 Battlemech Divisions and 304 Independent regiments in 2764. I just don't think all of that material came from the TH- some had to come from the member states.

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I mean, prior to the Periphery Divisions hitting the SLDF en-masse it's clear that the SLDF hadn't turned the supply machine to full speed or was committed to another RW-type fight by stockpiling supplies because many of the SLDF units in the Periphery, when cut off, didn't have the supplies to withstand the siege and to wait for relief. (Again, another reason that leads me to believe that the SLDF wasn't buying everything at the time.) I mean, the SLDF was technically fighting separatists armed with slug throwers and conventional vehicles. Kerensky had no way of knowing that 50 'Mech Divisions were just across the horizon. I think his deployment of the SLDF's stores reflects that.

Well it was seperatists armed with slug throwers, conventional vehicles and nukes but I digress...I do agree here that the SLDF got caught unprepared and that supply efforts for the fighting would not ramp up until several months into the campaign.

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On a side note, sadly, I personally think that had the Amaris Coup not occurred the Periphery Rebellion would have turned into a RW-type fight and we would have seen an immediate and sharp decline in House army growth as most of their production would have been turned towards supplying the SLDF. However, the suddenness of the Amaris Coup nips this possibility before it could develop.

I have to disagree here- per the SLSB by early 2767 General K had reconquered New Vandenberg (heart of the rebellion) and expect the Concordat to submit soon after (SLSB P. 84-I would point out here that there is no evidence that the Hyades Cluster rebelled against the SL- in fact the evidence is that Nicoletta Calderon kept the Hyades Cluster from rebelling to provide some plausible denialbility for the TC government). I tend to think that had the Coup not occurred the SLDF would have been subdued within another year or two. Yes there would have been some continuing efforts by the rebels, but the major fighting would have ended and the territorial states would have been forcibly reincorporated into the SL.

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The final third period of the Amaris Coup is basically support for my assumptions of the first two. When the Amaris Coup erupts you can extrapolate from the conquest of the Rim Worlds and from what the Houses supplied to the SLDF during the liberation the idea that the SLDF was wholly unprepared for the full extent of the Periphery Uprising. If the SLDF had been prepared for 50 'Mech Divisions or a RW-type conquest of the Periphery it would have been in a far better position to liberate the Hegemony and may have been able to liberate it sooner.

I'm not surely I fully agree with this. Was the SLDF unprepared for the Periphery Uprisings and the fighting that followed? Yes. But even if they had been better prepared I'm not sure it would have made that much of a difference. Let's say that rather then getting blindsided by the Periphery Mech Divisions, SLDF Intelligence provided a warning to all SLDF units in the area that there were numerous enemy mech divisions and to expect an attack. That probably would do little to help the units were outright nuked. The other units would probably fair a bit better in the fighting since they would be caught by surprise, but even so there would be heavy fighting between the SLDF and the rebels. The SLDF would still suffer significant losses- not on the scale that they did in canon but it would be substantial. And without the TH manufacturing base they would still be dependent on the Great Houses for supplies- unless they created truly incredible material reserves of food, fuel, ammunition, replacement parts and other consumables - outside of the TH.

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So working backwards, if we take into account how unprepared the SLDF was to liberate the Hegemony you can see the picture forming - the SLDF's equipment/material usage prior to the Amaris Coup should not have significantly impacted the Houses' ability to upgrade or expand their armies.

Even if the SLDF had been better prepared for the campaign to liberate Terra, it probably still would have taken several years to complete the liberation- and armies don't typically stockpile enough consumables for that much fighting.

That said I don't think the Great Houses would have been unable to expand/upgrade their forces- I just don't think every regiment would be running around with massive quantities of L2 tech (for example- the Davion Royal Brigade of Guards -yes, the Avalon Hussars, some upgrades, the rest of the AFFS, almost all level 1 tech) and I don't think that just because the 2752 amendment to the edict of 2650 allowed for the doubling of the house armies that they actually managed to double in size- the references in the HSSB and HBHS make seem very unlikely.

Knightmare · « **Reply #32 on:** June 08, 2010, 02:53:27 PM »

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 02:13:49 PM

I'm thinking more of the non-combat aspects- while the SAS was responsible for tracking down the rebels - the regular SLDF units almost certainly increased their patrol efforts, which would increase the wear and tear on their equipment. As this equipment wore out it would have to be replaced.

Ok, I think we were dancing around the same answer...

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 02:13:49 PM

But at the the same time the SLDF was also undergoing a massive expansion from the 8 or so Corps that fought in the RW (and which probably represented a good portion of the former THAF) to 325 Infantry Divisions, 125 Battlemech Divisions and 304 Independent regiments in 2764. I just don't think all of that material came from the TH- some had to come from the member states.

I'm not referring to the SLDF of 2595 or even 2606. I'm referring to the SLDF of 2750 - which has been expanded to its current size for give or take 50 years (if you want to be conservative.) During the initial growth period in the early 27th century I'm sure most of the material came from a diverse number of sources, including the Houses. You don't get huge numbers of Regular Army units without House manufacturing muscle. But by 2750 that linear growth isn't moving upward with the same speed or need at it was almost a century and a half earlier. (Actually, it probably was growing at the same linear rate but not as the same speed - i.e. growth over space within a certain span of time.)

I think we're agreeing again, but maybe I wasn't completely clear?

What I was trying to say (and probably poorly) was that by 2750 I'm certain most of the equipment requirements of the SLDF were supplied by the Terran Hegemony, while the material needs of the SLDF were managed by whatever source was most cost effective, close or allowed (in the case of advanced technologies.)

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 02:13:49 PM

I have to disagree here- per the SLSB by early 2767 General K had reconquered New Vandenberg (heart of the rebellion) and expect the Concordat to submit soon after (SLSB P. 84-I would point out here that there is no evidence that the Hyades Cluster rebelled against the SL- in fact the evidence is that Nicoletta Calderon kept the Hyades Cluster from rebelling to provide some plausible deniability for the TC government). I tend to think that had the Coup not occurred the SLDF would have been subdued within another year or two. Yes there would have been some continuing efforts by the rebels, but the major fighting would have ended and the territorial states would have been forcibly reincorporated into the SL.

I don't know about that. First, I lump the 50 'Mech Divisions in with the rebellion proper, (which I think you do as well) but I also know that many of the Periphery Uprising's leaders/groups felt duped by Amaris and quit fighting. You have to wonder if the Coup had not occurred, would the SLDF have been fighting in the Periphery for much longer and would the rebellion have spread elsewhere?

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 02:13:49 PM

I'm not surely I fully agree with this. Was the SLDF unprepared for the Periphery Uprisings and the fighting that followed? Yes. But even if they had been better prepared I'm not sure it would have made that much of a difference. Let's say that rather then getting blindsided by the Periphery Mech Divisions, SLDF Intelligence provided a warning to all SLDF units in the area that there were numerous enemy mech divisions and to expect an attack. That probably would do little to help the units were outright nuked.

There's not much anyone can do against having a nuke dropped on their heads, but that doesn't mean you don't provide adequate supplies for an invasion. But I see what you're getting at.

I still think it's telling, however, as to how the rebellion was viewed by Kerensky. Clearly he didn't see the full scale of the assault prior to the 50 division attack otherwise he would have prepared differently. That's really what I'm getting at. Given how the SLDF entered the Periphery Rebellion indicates that a full-scale House-supply mobilization wasn't in order. This idea is really to quell the notion that the Houses were so busy supplying the SLDF that they didn't have production available to outfit their own militaries.

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 02:13:49 PM

The other units would probably fair a bit better in the fighting since they would be caught by surprise, but even so there would be heavy fighting between the SLDF and the rebels. The SLDF would still suffer significant losses- not on the scale that they did in canon but it would be substantial. And without the TH manufacturing base they would still be dependent on the Great Houses for supplies- unless they created truly incredible material reserves of food, fuel, ammunition, replacement parts and other consumables - outside of the TH.

Which ultimately happened. The SLDF WAS dependent on House help to reclaim the Hegemony.

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 02:13:49 PM

Even if the SLDF had been better prepared for the campaign to liberate Terra, it probably still would have taken several years to complete the liberation- and armies don't typically stockpile enough consumables for that much fighting.

True, but it would have made quite a difference. You have to wonder what would have happened during the Amaris Coup if the SLDF had played it safe and determined that the Periphery Uprising was a major event and moved enough operating consumables for 1-2 years to Districts 2 & 3 prior to the Civil War? Would they have been able to outfit more of their non-Royal units with Royal technology? Would the SLDF have had to conquer the RWR and give Amaris a two year span to consolidate his control of the Hegemony? Things to wonder and consider.

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 02:13:49 PM

That said I don't think the Great Houses would have been unable to expand/upgrade their forces- I just don't think every regiment would be running around with massive quantities of L2 tech (for example- the Davion Royal Brigade of Guards -yes, the Avalon Hussars, some upgrades, the rest of the AFFS, almost all level 1 tech) and I don't think that just because the 2752 amendment to the edict of 2650 allowed for the doubling of the house armies that they actually managed to double in size- the references in the HSSB and HBHS make seem very unlikely.

This is totally my fault...

I thought you were saying they couldn't upgrade - Period. My apologies. Again, I think we're on the same page, just for different personal reasons.

On a side note, however, I think it's a bit wonky how on one hand we're operating under the premise that the Star League era is the pinnacle of science, production and prosperity and given a decade of complete peace the Great Houses are only showing limited military growth, even with carte blanche to do so. Whereas thanks to what TPTB have written about the late 3050s and 3060s, the Succession War & Clan Invasion-battered Houses are capable of tremendous military growth with none of the long term benefits enjoyed by their Star League era ancestors. It's this contradiction that bothers me...

And like I said, a bit wonky.

lrose · « **Reply #33 on:** June 08, 2010, 06:23:23 PM »

Quote from: Knightmare on June 08, 2010, 02:53:27 PM

I think we're agreeing again, but maybe I wasn't completely clear?

What I was trying to say (and probably poorly) was that by 2750 I'm certain most of the equipment requirements of the SLDF were supplied by the Terran Hegemony, while the material needs of the SLDF were managed by whatever source was most cost effective, close or allowed (in the case of advanced technologies.)

I agree with you here.

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I don't know about that. First, I lump the 50 'Mech Divisions in with the rebellion proper, (which I think you do as well) but I also know that many of the Periphery Uprising's leaders/groups felt duped by Amaris and quit fighting. You have to wonder if the Coup had not occurred, would the SLDF have been fighting in the Periphery for much longer and would the rebellion have spread elsewhere?

Yes I lump the 50 mech divisions into the rebellion, it's really hard to separate the 2. And I agree the leaders of the rebellion felt like they were screwed by Amaris (duped is too tame) and yes when Amaris tried to order the Periphery Mech Divisions to defend the RWR against Kerensky they refused. But there's more to this story then they just felt duped. The mech divisions by and large were recruited from the MOC, TC and OA. They were loyal to those states, not Amaris, and their goal, (whether or not the Coup occured) was to free their home nations. Look at the various periphery books- Most of the TC line regiments were formed from units that fought in the Uprisings- i.e. they are the surviving elements of the Periphery Mech Divisions, the same is true for the Canopian Fusiliers who fought in the Uprisings. And it is likely that the Magistracy Royal Guard, the Avellar Guard and the Alliance Grenadiers were formed from units shattered in the Uprisings. Then add in that the Periphery states have largely been at peace since 2768- so while they suffered some losses I don't think it is reasonable to say the TC 30 regiments in 2770 and is down to 12 in 3025. If anything the TDF has grown since the fall of the SL. So given how few forces were left in the Periphery in 2767 I can't see the fighting going on much longer- the SLDF had such a numerical advantage (much larger then the one they had in the RW) that the periphery states were not going to be able to fight on much longer.

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I still think it's telling, however, as to how the rebellion was viewed by Kerensky. Clearly he didn't see the full scale of the assault prior to the 50 division attack otherwise he would have prepared differently. That's really what I'm getting at. Given how the SLDF entered the Periphery Rebellion indicates that a full-scale House-supply mobilization wasn't in order. This idea is really to quell the notion that the Houses were so busy supplying the SLDF that they didn't have production available to outfit their own militaries.

Agreed- Kerensky probably did not plan on a war that would cost him 25% of the SLDF.

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True, but it would have made quite a difference. You have to wonder what would have happened during the Amaris Coup if the SLDF had played it safe and determined that the Periphery Uprising was a major event and moved enough operating consumables for 1-2 years to Districts 2 & 3 prior to the Civil War? Would they have been able to outfit more of their non-Royal units with Royal technology? Would the SLDF have had to conquer the RWR and give Amaris a two year span to consolidate his control of the Hegemony? Things to wonder and consider.

Interesting questions- my question is could the SLDF redeploy so many troops and the quantity of supplies at the same time? If they could have, then yes they could have avoided the invasion of the RWR, but that raises the question of how rash would the SLDF soldiers be during the invasion of the TH- in theory the RWR campaign let them expend their initial rage, so that when the invaded the TH, which was better defended they would not act rashly.

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This is totally my fault... I thought you were saying they couldn't upgrade - Period. My apologies. Again, I think we're on the same page, just for different personal reasons.

Sorry I may not have been totally clear- I definitely think they had some upgrades- most L2 tech is old and by law had to have passed to the Great Houses- I just don't think every mech was brimming with L2 tech.

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On a side note, however, I think it's a bit wonky how on one hand we're operating under the premise that the Star League era is the pinnacle of science, production and prosperity and given a decade of complete peace the Great Houses are only showing limited military growth, even with carte blanche to do so. Whereas thanks to what TPTB have written about the late 3050s and 3060s, the Succession War & Clan Invasion-battered Houses are capable of tremendous military growth with none of the long term benefits enjoyed by their Star League era ancestors. It's this contradiction that bothers me...

I blame this on TR3058 and the era of battletech munckinism as I call it. I started playing BT right before the clans - 1988/89 so I saw the new tech as it was introduced. When TR2750 came out it was a neat book with advanced weapons but the most interesting part was that no mech or Vehicle had more the 3 new tech items. When TR3050 came out the designs used a lot of new tech, but for the most part they were upgrades of existing production lines, there were very few new lines. Then you get to TR3055 and TR3058, 2 books that I will argue are really bad for the BT universe. One problem is that both books introduce a lot of new manufacturers- not just Defiance added a new production line, but entirely new factories just popping up over night. Even worse a number of these factories were described as former SL era ones that were abandoned or destroyed, but 300 years later can easily be reactivated- if they could be rebuilt that easily why didn't the Successor States do that during the 3rd SW when they were desperate for mech production? I've never understood this. (as a side note it bothers me in current products when the say factory xyz shut down during the later years of the SWs because their products were unpopular- if you are in an era when any equipment is scarce are you really going to shut down a working factory? One example of this is the Ironsides aerospace fighter.)

The other problem was TR3058- one of the worst TRs in BT as so many of the designs are optimized designs with no flaws. Many of the designs in there were SL era designs that were far more powerful then the ones in TR2750. So suddenly TR2750 looks silly and results in the recent efforts to explain that what we thought were advanced SLDF designs, weren't. But that's a separate issue from what we are discussing.

Knightmare · « **Reply #34 on:** June 08, 2010, 08:58:18 PM »

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 06:23:23 PM

Yes I lump the 50 mech divisions into the rebellion, it's really hard to separate the 2. And I agree the leaders of the rebellion felt like they were screwed by Amaris (duped is too tame) and yes when Amaris tried to order the Periphery Mech Divisions to defend the RWR against Kerensky they refused. But there's more to this story then they just felt duped. The mech divisions by and large were recruited from the MOC, TC and OA. They were loyal to those states, not Amaris, and their goal, (whether or not the Coup occured) was to free their home nations. Look at the various periphery books- Most of the TC line regiments were formed from units that fought in the Uprisings- i.e. they are the surviving elements of the Periphery Mech Divisions, the same is true for the Canopian Fusiliers who fought in the Uprisings. And it is likely that the Magistracy Royal Guard, the Avellar Guard and the Alliance Grenadiers were formed from units shattered in the Uprisings. Then add in that the Periphery states have largely been at peace since 2768- so while they suffered some losses I don't think it is reasonable to say the TC 30 regiments in 2770 and is down to 12 in 3025. If anything the TDF has grown since the fall of the SL. So given how few forces were left in the Periphery in 2767 I can't see the fighting going on much longer- the SLDF had such a numerical advantage (much larger then the one they had in the RW) that the periphery states were not going to be able to fight on much longer.

I don't necessarily agree that numerical superiority dictates the length or tenure of a Civil War. I mean the Star League forces enjoyed only a decent numerical and technological advantage over their Periphery opponents during the Reunification War and it lasted over a decade. The will to fight can not always be measured in simple numerical terms. Fictionally, the Taurians are living proof. They effectively reinvented and popularized the human-wave attack.

The point I was trying to make and I think you inadvertently expand on, is that the Periphery Uprising forces were pan-Periphery units drawn from every Periphery state. Assuming they weren't screwed by Amaris there's no reason to think these Periphery divisions wouldn't fight on longer; bleeding the SLDF more and possibly gaining actual concessions from the Star League government. I mean, given the success of their initial attack it's not difficult to imagine the other leaders of the Periphery Uprising being a little less likely to bargain with Kerensky had Amaris not launched his Coup and as you pointed out, in 1-2 years of fighting the Uprising cost the SLDF close to 25% of its operational strength. That's a fair bit of success by anyone's measure.

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 06:23:23 PM

Interesting questions- my question is could the SLDF redeploy so many troops and the quantity of supplies at the same time? .

Honestly, I'm sure the SLDF could have moved the supplies. If any of those massive and costly war games show, is that in a pinch the SLDF can move stuff around. I'm sure if Kerensky believed that the Periphery Uprising would include 50 'Mech Divisions or any significant 'Mech forces for that matter he would have ordered the movement of additional materials out of the Hegemony. His sudden order to withdraw from the Periphery when these 'Mech Divisions appear reinforces the notion that not only was the SLDF caught completely off guard, but it was physically caught unprepared as well.

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 06:23:23 PM

If they could have, then yes they could have avoided the invasion of the RWR, but that raises the question of how rash would the SLDF soldiers be during the invasion of the TH- in theory the RWR campaign let them expend their initial rage, so that when the invaded the TH, which was better defended they would not act rashly

This is a good question. I guess it would depend on how tightly and how integrated the Republican forces were after the initial takeover of the Hegemony. If the SLDF was physically capable of immediately attacking the new Amaris Empire they'd still face most of the remaining SDSes but they'd also be facing Republican-held worlds that didn't benefit from two years of fortification (re)building or renewed arms production, or populations starved half to death. Rim Worlds forces also wouldn't have the time to upgrade all of their units with Hegemony technology and if they did, wouldn't be very familiar with their use. Nor would Amaris enjoy the time to leisurely strip the Terran Hegemony of its grandeur.

However, it brings to light another questions/problem. If Amaris wasn't afforded the time to strip the Hegemony and was immediately placed on the defensively would he have destroyed more of the Hegemony outright rather than try to hoard it?

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 06:23:23 PM

I blame this on TR3058 and the era of battletech munckinism as I call it. I started playing BT right before the clans - 1988/89 so I saw the new tech as it was introduced. When TR2750 came out it was a neat book with advanced weapons but the most interesting part was that no mech or Vehicle had more the 3 new tech items. When TR3050 came out the designs used a lot of new tech, but for the most part they were upgrades of existing production lines, there were very few new lines. Then you get to TR3055 and TR3058, 2 books that I will argue are really bad for the BT universe. One problem is that both books introduce a lot of new manufacturers- not just Defiance added a new production line, but entirely new factories just popping up over night. Even worse a number of these factories were described as former SL era ones that were abandoned or destroyed, but 300 years later can easily be reactivated- if they could be rebuilt that easily why didn't the Successor States do that during the 3rd SW when they were desperate for mech production? I've never understood this. (as a side note it bothers me in current products when the say factory xyz shut down during the later years of the SWs because their products were unpopular- if you are in an era when any equipment is scarce are you really going to shut down a working factory? One example of this is the Ironsides aerospace fighter.)

The other problem was TR3058- one of the worst TRs in BT as so many of the designs are optimized designs with no flaws. Many of the designs in there were SL era designs that were far more powerful then the ones in TR2750. So suddenly TR2750 looks silly and results in the recent efforts to explain that what we thought were advanced SLDF designs, weren't. But that's a separate issue from what we are discussing.

Amen!

Takiro · « **Reply #35 on:** June 08, 2010, 10:29:33 PM »

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 06:23:23 PM

When TR2750 came out it was a neat book with advanced weapons but the most interesting part was that no mech or Vehicle had more the 3 new tech items. When TR3050 came out the designs used a lot of new tech, but for the most part they were upgrades of existing production lines, there were very few new lines.

Sorry to jump over your response KM but this quote is golden. I'd be very happy tapping into the TRO2750 mojo for house Mechs with new weapons like the Dragon and Jenner. The rest should be refits in the spirit of TRO3050 designed on the lessons of the Hidden Wars, the Periphery Uprising, and the Amaris Coup. As the Succession War goes on we could come up with more refits based on the availability of tech. How about this for a three tiered equipment table.

High tech optimization should be reserved for VIPs and the Terrans building off SLDF Royal Units. Maybe that should be our "A" rated equipment.

B would be the above TRO2750 new builds and TRO3050 refits.

C should be 3025 Level 1 tech

We could go lower I guess but the variety is somewhat limited in this era so I figure more like the ComGuards then the Houses if you catch my comparison for equipment ratings.

FirstStarLord · « **Reply #36 on:** June 08, 2010, 10:52:39 PM »

Looking over Klondike, I thought the most interesting implication was related to the organization of the SLDF. It held up the references to SL Regular Army Armored Divisions first referenced in the Invader Clans SB. I would have thought they would have retconned it out, but they kept it in Khan Osis's profile. I wonder what that means for the overall size of the SLDF, in particular its tank forces?

Sorry if this post is a little OT.

lrose · « **Reply #37 on:** June 08, 2010, 10:58:58 PM »

Quote from: Knightmare on June 08, 2010, 08:58:18 PM

I don't necessarily agree that numerical superiority dictates the length or tenure of a Civil War. I mean the Star League forces enjoyed only a decent numerical and technological advantage over their Periphery opponents during the Reunification War and it lasted over a decade. The will to fight can not always be measured in simple numerical terms. Fictionally, the Taurians are living proof. They effectively reinvented and popularized the human-wave attack.

But I think the Uprisings were different from the RW- During the Uprisings I think the SLDF had a much larger numerical advantage over the Periphery forces. I agree that the will to fight is important, but I also think the governments of the Periphery states (especially the TC and the MOC) were playing a risky game- remember the TC did not succeed from the Star League- only some of the member worlds did. I would argue that the periphery leaders hoped they would badly bloody the SLDF, which they did and the SL would then leave the periphery as not being worth the trouble. Instead General Kerensky initially retreated and then came back with a vengeance to put down the rebellion. Had the war lasted much longer I suspect the rebels would have gone to ground (supported by their governments) and prepared for the next Uprising.

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The point I was trying to make and I think you inadvertently expand on, is that the Periphery Uprising forces were pan-Periphery units drawn from every Periphery state. Assuming they weren't screwed by Amaris there's no reason to think these Periphery divisions wouldn't fight on longer; bleeding the SLDF more and possibly gaining actual concessions from the Star League government. I mean, given the success of their initial attack it's not difficult to imagine the other leaders of the Periphery Uprising being a little less likely to bargain with Kerensky had Amaris not launched his Coup and as you pointed out, in 1-2 years of fighting the Uprising cost the SLDF close to 25% of its operational strength. That's a fair bit of success by anyone's measure.

I agree the Rebels were incredibly successful- but I think by 2767 they were were in bad shape- many units had been destroyed and there were no reserves. The SLDF on the other had still had huge numbers of troops who had not been commited to the war, could in theory call on the support of the Great Houses and had a large training system that was turning out large numbers of troops. I think the Periphery forces had used up the element of surprise and the Uprising had turned into a war of attrition, which the rebels had no hope of winning. Yes the rebels would fight for as long as they could but I don't think it would be that long...

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Honestly, I'm sure the SLDF could have moved the supplies. If any of those massive and costly war games show, is that in a pinch the SLDF can move stuff around. I'm sure if Kerensky believed that the Periphery Uprising would include 50 'Mech Divisions or any significant 'Mech forces for that matter he would have ordered the movement of additional materials out of the Hegemony. His sudden order to withdraw from the Periphery when these 'Mech Divisions appear reinforces the notion that not only was the SLDF caught completely off guard, but it was physically caught unprepared as well.

But did they ability to move the supplies and troops simultaneously? I'm not sure the SLDF could redeploy most of it's divisions and enough supplies to support them for 2 years in the field at the same time.

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This is a good question. I guess it would depend on how tightly and how integrated the Republican forces were after the initial takeover of the Hegemony. If the SLDF was physically capable of immediately attacking the new Amaris Empire they'd still face most of the remaining SDSes but they'd also be facing Republican-held worlds that didn't benefit from two years of fortification (re)building or renewed arms production, or populations starved half to death. Rim Worlds forces also wouldn't have the time to upgrade all of their units with Hegemony technology and if they did, wouldn't be very familiar with their use. Nor would Amaris enjoy the time to leisurely strip the Terran Hegemony of its grandeur.

However, it brings to light another questions/problem. If Amaris wasn't afforded the time to strip the Hegemony and was immediately placed on the defensively would he have destroyed more of the Hegemony outright rather than try to hoard it?

Those are some good points- I guess the SLDF would have a slight advantage over the RWR- but as you point out Amaris may have been more brutal in his efforts to defend the TH, and inflicted more damage on the worlds of the Hegemony.

lrose · « **Reply #38 on:** June 08, 2010, 11:05:02 PM »

Quote from: Takiro on June 08, 2010, 10:29:33 PM

High tech optimization should be reserved for VIPs and the Terrans building off SLDF Royal Units. Maybe that should be our "A" rated equipment.

B would be the above TRO2750 new builds and TRO3050 refits.

I would tend to limit the TR3050 refits to weapons, heatsinks and the like- unless these "refits" are new production from a factory they should not have any structural improvements (Case, Endo Steel, Ferro-Fibrous Armor, XL Engines). And as a note, the TR3050 mechs typically used more L2 tech the TR2750 mechs, but they also used it poorly (reflecting the designers lack of experience with the new equipment).

Takiro · « **Reply #39 on:** June 08, 2010, 11:16:22 PM »

Quote from: FirstStarLord on June 08, 2010, 10:52:39 PM

Looking over Klondike, I thought the most interesting implication was related to the organization of the SLDF. It held up the references to SL Regular Army Armored Divisions first referenced in the Invader Clans SB. I would have thought they would have retconned it out, but they kept it in Khan Osis's profile. I wonder what that means for the overall size of the SLDF, in particular its tank forces?

Sorry if this post is a little OT.

Not a problem. That is interesting in regards to the SLDF whom I thought didn't utilize armor. Any other useful information on them??

lrose · « **Reply #40 on:** June 08, 2010, 11:24:47 PM »

Quote from: Takiro on June 08, 2010, 11:16:22 PM

Not a problem. That is interesting in regards to the SLDF whom I thought didn't utilize armor. Any other useful information on them??

The SLSB has some info on the SLDF armored units- The TO&E for a regular army mech division shows a brigade of 3 armor regiments assigned to the division. It also says the SLDF had Assault, Heavy, Medium & Light Tank Regiments, Hovercraft Regiments and Wheeled Regiments. Most were assigned to divisions as anti-mech regiments or given garrison duty (SLSB p. 134)

FirstStarLord · « **Reply #41 on:** June 08, 2010, 11:31:42 PM »

Quote from: Takiro on June 08, 2010, 11:16:22 PM

Quote from: FirstStarLord on June 08, 2010, 10:52:39 PM
Looking over Klondike, I thought the most interesting implication was related to the organization of the SLDF. It held up the references to SL Regular Army Armored Divisions first referenced in the Invader Clans SB. I would have thought they would have retconned it out, but they kept it in Khan Osis's profile. I wonder what that means for the overall size of the SLDF, in particular its tank forces?

Sorry if this post is a little OT.

Not a problem. That is interesting in regards to the SLDF whom I thought didn't utilize armor. Any other useful information on them??

Well the SLDF always had armored regiments, that was never in debate going back to the SL SB. The thing was that they were depicted as being attached to other units as armored brigades. It seems every division in the Regular Army had such a brigade of three regiments, and the ones attached to Battlemech Divisions had two heavy armored regiments and one anti-air regiment. Other divisions may have used different configurations. There were also a handful of independent armor units at the Corps level, but nothing too noteworthy.

The only reason I bring all of this up is because the armored divisions was one of the most obscure references in the old FASA lore. They could have been easily retconed without much notice, and yet they kept it and added it into one of the most important sourcebooks in years. Maybe they simply did not think of it at the time, but for all intents and purposes they made the Armored Divisions current canon.

Knightmare · « **Reply #42 on:** June 09, 2010, 09:10:40 AM »

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 10:58:58 PM

But I think the Uprisings were different from the RW- During the Uprisings I think the SLDF had a much larger numerical advantage over the Periphery forces. I agree that the will to fight is important, but I also think the governments of the Periphery states (especially the TC and the MOC) were playing a risky game- remember the TC did not succeed from the Star League- only some of the member worlds did. I would argue that the periphery leaders hoped they would badly bloody the SLDF, which they did and the SL would then leave the periphery as not being worth the trouble. Instead General Kerensky initially retreated and then came back with a vengeance to put down the rebellion. Had the war lasted much longer I suspect the rebels would have gone to ground (supported by their governments) and prepared for the next Uprising.

The Uprising was definitely a risky proposition but I think you're underestimating the resolve of the Periphery or the type of game they playing. I tend to view the Periphery Uprising as the opening stages of a possible war of independence for the Periphery realms. It makes sense that the Periphery governments wouldn't openly rebel. Their leaders would want to gauge the SLDF's/Star League's response (because they're two different things) before committing themselves to a specific course of action and of course to bloody the nose of the SLDF a bit with minimized risk.

Now assuming for a second the Coup did not occur it's very possible that another "Sparks of Santiago," engineered or otherwise was in the works. All it takes is a minor screw up and the whole Periphery goes up in flames, or at least a good portion of it. And I don't believe the rebels would have "gone to ground" quietly. I just think the periphery would suffer another wave of terrorist attacks while they regrouped their physical strength. Remember, the only reason why the SLDF was even remotely successful the first time around is because Amaris sold the TFA out. Which on a side note, doubly helped the Star League because the SAS's methods were becoming so brutal they would have likely been the spark responsible for setting the whole Concordat ablaze.

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 10:58:58 PM

I agree the Rebels were incredibly successful- but I think by 2767 they were were in bad shape- many units had been destroyed and there were no reserves. The SLDF on the other had still had huge numbers of troops who had not been committed to the war, could in theory call on the support of the Great Houses and had a large training system that was turning out large numbers of troops. I think the Periphery forces had used up the element of surprise and the Uprising had turned into a war of attrition, which the rebels had no hope of winning. Yes the rebels would fight for as long as they could but I don't think it would be that long...

Personally I think you're looking at this too linearly, but that's just my opinion. By 2767 the rebels weren't better armed than their Reunification War ancestors and they managed to bloody the League for over a decade. The problem, or rather the strength of the rebels here is that they have the tacit approval of their governments. The SLDF has to be careful in rooting them out, as opposed to conducting the same type of total war campaign it did during the RW - that's playing with super dangerous fire. So the rebels won't be fighting pitched standard battles, they'll just go back to another round of terrorism while they rebuild or setup the next "phase" of the rebellion. I don't think they'd simply stop. I think this was just the beginning.

You also have to wonder if the Great Houses would support a war to reclaim the Periphery...

I mean by 2767 the House leaders were already teetering on the edge of washing their hands of the Star League altogether. In their eyes the League had served its purpose, now it was beginning to become troublesome. The House Lords were also more or less done raping the periphery, so you have to wonder if another possible Reunification War was on the horizon would that have been the straw that broke the Star League's back and not the Coup?

I mean you know Richard II, who was incredibly unpopular with the High Council would have pitched a fit if the periphery realms ceded from the League and would demand its reconquest. The House Lords, who really don't give a damn would just wait for poor Richard to pull some illegal nonsense so they could withdrawal their support from any military endeavor, or just drag their knuckles getting anything done (why destroy the military gains you've just spent a decade rebuilding for a League you USE, but not really believe in?) all while the SLDF bleeds to death for lack of support. At that point the SLDF ceases to be as scary as it once was and the House leaders simply dissolve their involvement in the Star League since it no longer works for them, nor does it unite all the disparate peoples of the Inner Sphere under one flag, blah, blah, blah and so on, just fast forward to 2781. Richard II is likely to be deposed or forcibly removed at some point because I can almost guarantee he's going to have a mental breakdown worse than Johnathan's. You'll probably end up with Kerensky as Regent until Cameron's daughter is old enough to take the Hegemony throne.

Welcome Age of War II, but with a fully stocked Terran Hegemony.

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 10:58:58 PM

But did they ability to move the supplies and troops simultaneously? I'm not sure the SLDF could redeploy most of it's divisions and enough supplies to support them for 2 years in the field at the same time.

I'm thinking so. They didn't give those tin-can WarShips of theirs ridiculous cargo-carrying capacity's for nothing.

Besides, it's an on-going effort. Just means Kerensky's move into the Periphery would have taken a little bit longer as he spent more time preparing.

Quote from: lrose on June 08, 2010, 11:05:02 PM

I would tend to limit the TR3050 refits to weapons, heatsinks and the like- unless these "refits" are new production from a factory they should not have any structural improvements (Case, Endo Steel, Ferro-Fibrous Armor, XL Engines). And as a note, the TR3050 mechs typically used more L2 tech the TR2750 mechs, but they also used it poorly (reflecting the designers lack of experience with the new equipment).

I would remove Ferro-Fibrous Armor and maybe CASE from that list. Since Ferror-Fibrous armor is an external application that could probably be refitted without too much trouble. For gaming purposes we use internal crits, but in reality it would just be a question of recognizing the bulk difference to determine weight and volume before application. As for CASE, I know it's a two part system (the actual ammunition box/escape hatch and the software) and that for some BattleMech models, retro-fitting CASE could be accomplished rather easily while it's waiting for a new skin of Ferro-Fibrous armor. However, I would council restraint when using CASE (if using it at all) because of the structural work involved in any installation more difficult than the Enforcer's AC/10 setup. You know, "load a clip in the rear and you're finished" kind of setup.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #43 on:** June 09, 2010, 03:49:27 PM »

Just two quick thoughts:
1. Why would the SLDF expect anything else than a long and difficult war against the Periphery? The Reunification War is there to show it.

2. Don't forget that some top industries/industrial worlds of the Successor States were Hegemony worlds or shared ones.
This gives every unit of the SLDF a possible access to advanced Hegemony items.

Knightmare · « **Reply #44 on:** June 09, 2010, 03:54:28 PM »

Quote from: Ice Hellion on June 09, 2010, 03:49:27 PM

1. Why would the SLDF expect anything else than a long and difficult war against the Periphery? The Reunification War is there to show it.

Because militaries and governments are run by people with short life spans and limited memories. Plus the writers wanted to bleed the SLDF a little bit more than if could have or should have been.

Quote from: Ice Hellion on June 09, 2010, 03:49:27 PM

2. Don't forget that some top industries/industrial worlds of the Successor States were Hegemony worlds or shared ones.
This gives every unit of the SLDF a possible access to advanced Hegemony items.

Shared worlds were politically and economically distinctive but not indicative of anything else. Just because the Hegemony and a House shared a particular world, doesn't mean it was brimming with advanced weapons technologies or military supplies. A great deal of the shared worlds were shared for economic/resource reasons first and foremost, though in Hesperus II's case military applications played a key role in the world's development.

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