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Author Topic: Optimizing the Hunchback  (Read 16827 times)

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Takiro

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2020, 07:16:02 AM »

And so you did!

https://www.ourbattletech.com/forum/index.php?topic=1535.msg22790#msg22790

In the future masterarminas you could reuse these for these contests by just saying ComStar discovered ancient files Yada Yada....

There are differences between our Hunchbacks maybe I'll comment on them more later. ;)
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Bradshaw

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2020, 11:34:00 AM »

Damn forgot about the Hunchback I did for your Comstar thread
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Takiro

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2021, 05:10:03 PM »

Okay time to catch up, any objection if I do a simple list of the designs to save on time? It would dramatically reduce the amount of work.
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Bradshaw

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2021, 05:43:16 PM »

 8) Cool with me
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lrose

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2021, 06:56:08 PM »

That's fine.  Or maybe just a brief bit on the what you liked about the winners?
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fabulousorcboy

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2021, 07:31:23 PM »

Agree, no need for the comprehensive write-up for everything, but if you explain why you like the winners, we can 'fill in the blanks' with the rest.
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Takiro

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2021, 03:52:20 PM »

Sorry, this abbreviated review took so long but I think this brief review format will be the new model hopefully speeding things along. While I loved the fact that there were no DQs and all entries were completed but there were winning concepts here that I felt weren't fully taken advantage of. Also, I really felt if you were gonna feature the AC/20 you had to either pump up the speed or add mobility. Generally for the Hunchback I favored the standard Fusion Engine submissions for the rugged performance over the XL Engines. However, some energy boat 250 XLs came closest to making it but really feel got the Hunch (or its main variants) as a ballistic weapon carriers over missile and laser users. Here are where all the contestants ranked in my opinion.

     PASSABLE
22. HBK-5J (Abele) didn't care for the multiple LRM-10s, why not LRM-5s or a single LRM-20
21. HBK-5N (Abele) Ultra AC/5 + LRM-10 didn't make complete sense to me
20. HBK-5B (Abele) XL Engine Blazer
19. HBK-5Mr (Abele) 4/6 movement featuring AC/20
18. HBK-6T (Abele) PPC LRM-10 Taurian variant
        CONTENDERS
17. HBK-5MC (Abele) Canopian Missileer
16. HBK-5H (Abele) Lyran LB-X Pulse model
15. HBK-5G (masterarminas) like the ER Large but feel 4/6 is too slow for the AC/20
14. HBK-5G (Abele) Kurita Gauss variant
13. HBK-5SP & HBK-5SP2 (Abele) ComGuard replacement
12. HBK-THG, HBK-MAD, HBK-ATL, HBK-AWE (Bradshaw) Hunchback clones
       NEAR MISSES
11. HBK-5T (Abele) Taurian dual PPC model
10. HBK-5P (Abele) based off the Solaris Hodgepodge
9. HBK-5J (masterarminas) Gauss ER Large entry
8. HBK-5H (masterarminas) LB-X and PPC combo
7. HBK-Blazer (Bradhsaw) liked the twin Blazer IIC, not so much the Marian storyline, still plausible
6. HBK-5Y (Ice Hellion) closest AC/20 competitor to the 6K IMO
5. HBK-5K (drakensis) dual ER PPC variant
       UNIQUE
4. HBK-4P Hodgepodge (Abele) as a unique Solaris gladiator, InnerSphere Black Hawk, I really like this one
       WINNERS
3. HBK-5I (masterarminas) love this dual Ultra AC/5 variant of the old Hunchback, could easily make the 3rd Marik Civil War
2. HBK-5G (drakensis) Kurita Gauss variant, persistence pays off for the Dragon 
1. HBK-6K & the HBK-6N, HBK-6LT, HBK-6LB variants (Takiro) Felt the Fastback was the best

So the top four I will be using in our Salient Horizon setting with the Hodgepodge appearing on Solaris while the HBK-5I, HBK-5G, and HBK-6K (plus its variants) will be joining us en masse. Usually I go out of my way to finish others ahead of my own entries but here I really thought it was the best all around. It stuck to the Hunchback's original role and improved on it to the Nth degree. Thanks for participating everyone!

Any questions or clarifications, please shoot away.
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Bradshaw

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2021, 04:40:45 PM »

Not a fan of mass LRM version doesn't feel hunchback to me. Disappointed by Blazer finish not surprised by the clone brigade.
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Takiro

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2021, 05:12:39 PM »

The clones or mimics were an interesting concept Bradshaw. The availability of EndoSteel was a big stumbling block for me on them. Retrofitting a limited number for testing, research, etc is plausible but mass production I felt was a stretch. Probably liked your Hunch-Thug the best.

The dual Blazer was a near miss Bradshaw. Very good entry, the Marian angle was questionable. Still it is a nice way to get the Hegemony some upgrades. Perhaps more of a Steiner led effort to do the same thing would have come off better. I think that drakensis ER PPC concept which was similar finished higher but as I said really feel ballistic weaponry equals Hunchback.
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Bradshaw

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2021, 06:23:10 PM »

I really believe the lack of endo steel is overplayed. I mean. Let's say a factory can produce 100 BattleMechs in a year. That's a lot of individual pieces all put together to get one finished product. What is the orbital production doing after the month to produce those frames? I was reading the posts and I was reading stuff by Cray (sp) and he talks about what someone could do with an endosteel factory.

Quote
Would it be acceptable to only produce endosteel ingots, powders, and "blanks" (basic tubes, angles, bars, etc.) for other factories to turn into products ranging from omni-mech chasses to the frames of Bugatti Veyron-3000s and ultra-expensive golf clubs? It simplifies your factory and greatly expands the customer base.

https://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/162622/Main/161464

Quote
3060-3070 military production is around 4000 to 6000 'Mechs per year; if they were all 100-ton endo steel 'Mechs then - ignoring the other materials in internal structures - you'd need a maximum of 30,000 tons of endo steel a year. This is not a lot of metal - Earth has been producing 1 - 1.5 billion tons of steel per year for some decades now
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 07:40:18 PM by Bradshaw »
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fabulousorcboy

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2021, 12:44:10 PM »

Bradshaw, I agree with you.  That said, while it could be profitable as a niche industry to have an Endo-Steel production facility, the start-up costs are massive: if your system doesn't have an existing orbital facility (and most Inner Sphere systems do not), then you have to build one, then you have to lift a bunch of materials and personnel up to the facility, etc.  The result is a product that is four times as expensive as the best high-tensile steel available, and it is FAR bulkier as well, with the major benefit being that it is lighter weight -- and only really practical for use in Mechs.  Not vehicles, not battle-armor, not dropships or aerospace fighters or jumpships, not civil engineering or building infrastructure or wide-scale commercial applications... only 'Mechs.

Given that bulk costs money to transport as well as weight, plus the tremendous start-up costs, I don't see how most legacy industries would want to develop Endo-Steel production on their own.  I mean, it looks basically like the Fiberglass vs Metal debate on cars -- but what if fiberglass wasn't just more expensive and harder to repair and replace, but also SIGNIFICANTLY bulkier -- and with massive start-up costs that were much much higher than traditional steel or aluminum (which are not all that cheap in terms of smelting facilities IRL)?  Who would want fiberglass bodied cars then?  It would be (at best) a really niche/luxury industry.

That said, by the 3060s, a lot of armaments firms have Endo-Steel production, because the logic of Endo-Steel frames for 'Mechs is so clear: it's superior to Ferro-Fibrous Armor in terms of weight savings, and massively cheaper in terms of cost, both short and long term.  It's one of the most cost-effective weight savings you can apply to a 'Mech, after double heat sinks.  And if you can get your star empire to subsidize the orbital facilities, then the initial start-up costs are covered, too.  Obviously the Mech-obsessed Clans use Endo-Steel in virtually all of their 'Mech designs, and have gotten the bulk way, way down as well.

Also in the Inner Sphere, you've got development of less bulky options, like Composite (3061) and Endo-Composite (3067), which are perfectly fine, but not always ideal for heavy and assault 'Mechs because (a) fragile, or (b) not as efficient.  I know that Game Logic decrees that Clan Endosteel is just better, but it's always been a bit mysterious to me why the Inner Sphere doesn't just steal the technique and make Clan-grade materials.

See the story of how Andrew Carnegie basically stole the British Bessemer Steel process and became a monstrously wealthy monopolist.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 12:51:00 PM by fabulousorcboy »
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Bradshaw

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2021, 01:16:42 PM »

Agreed 150% startup costs are exorbitant, with that wouldn't these companies that have started them up want to make that money back. If only producing a few dozen frames a year it would take thousands of years to make your money back....why even do so then? Cray is the person that basically wrote up Endo Steel for canon and he talks about being used for other civilian products as well to offset these costs. True this is almost a decade from now but with the dozen or so production facilities I would assume theyd start expanding (with this contest perfect time to do so) into additional markets to help with revenue. 
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2021, 03:09:35 PM »

I think the problem is more retrofit vs not retrofit.
If you go for standard production 'Mech, you can bring EndoSteel into the game. For retrofitted 'Mechs, it is more complicated.

And you won Takiro. Remind me who is the judge?  :P

Congratulations.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2021, 03:21:51 PM »

I think the problem is more retrofit vs not retrofit.
If you go for standard production 'Mech, you can bring EndoSteel into the game. For retrofitted 'Mechs, it is more complicated.

That's what seems most complex to me. EndoSteel retrofitting can certainly be done but it ain't easy. Basically your talking about a full teardown and rebuild.

Fabulousorcboy makes some excellent industrial and economic points regarding the process as well. Remember part of these challenges is using what is available and close by.

And you won Takiro. Remind me who is the judge?  :P

Congratulations.

I really hope that this is the one and only time, I love it your contributions more than mine. There is that surprise factor and hitting on things I didn't consider which makes this entire endeavor enjoyable for me.
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masterarminas

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Re: Optimizing the Hunchback
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2021, 04:10:38 PM »

I think the problem is more retrofit vs not retrofit.
If you go for standard production 'Mech, you can bring EndoSteel into the game. For retrofitted 'Mechs, it is more complicated.

That's what seems most complex to me. EndoSteel retrofitting can certainly be done but it ain't easy. Basically your talking about a full teardown and rebuild.

Fabulousorcboy makes some excellent industrial and economic points regarding the process as well. Remember part of these challenges is using what is available and close by.

And you won Takiro. Remind me who is the judge?  :P

Congratulations.

I really hope that this is the one and only time, I love it your contributions more than mine. There is that surprise factor and hitting on things I didn't consider which makes this entire endeavor enjoyable for me.

I've got no problems with you winning.  The standard engine "Fastback" Hunchback is an Inner Sphere dream and if you had not beat me to the punch, that is what I would have gone with myself.
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