Topic: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers (Read 28522 times)

Takiro · « **Reply #15 on:** November 28, 2019, 04:48:32 PM »

The Guildmaster (perhaps a direct decendant of their founder) would just head the Guilds and while like a Khan has no military or police authority whatsoever. He may interact with the Loremaster of the Clans or the ilKhan but would have no place in the Hall of Khans. This is an all civilian organization is policed by Guild Keshik which is charged with security and often patrols their space. Not prestigious at all (think Katyusha Keshik but in space) they are likely third rate warriors with ancient equipment.

Tobias could go for money or back a Cloud Cobra scheme. When were the Tanite Worlds discovered?? Nah, no good there is a 20 year difference here. Perhaps something to do with territory, technology, hmm.....

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #16 on:** November 29, 2019, 01:58:06 PM »

Why not make them a kind of elite for the non Warriors? A reserve born of (we can discuss that later on) that can recruit in every Clans with Trials being held every ...

Takiro · « **Reply #17 on:** November 29, 2019, 04:29:39 PM »

Could you expand on that concept Ice? Pretty hard for the Guilds to Trial for anything since they have no warriors and are not a Clan per say but at the same time are Clan. Let me say first off that the Clans have little regard for human liberty and thus people themselves could be a commodity hence trafficked like any other good.

I am envisioning the Free Guilds as the Strategic Reserve of the Clans with certain rare commodities kept in their care for the good of all. This would range from space industries to warships (perhaps they maintain the mothball fleets), to germanium, and even drinking water. No Clan can draw from them without the approval of the Grand Council or the agreement of the Guildmaster.

marauder648 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 29, 2019, 04:42:26 PM »

I doubt you could opt out of the way of the Clans without becoming a Bandit/Dark Caste.
But perhaps the Free guilds are akin to the Sol system Belters. They are not Clan (no warriors, not even police), but they also are because they have the caste system and provide for all as a kind of background meta thing.

Of course other Clans can and do trade otuside of them, there's a far greater risk/reward payoff with such things but also a greater chance to big up your clan and shame those you dupe/do better than.

This is where the SHarks get a lot of their power. The Free Guilds could be in turn limited in what they can trade and the like, oh sure they can trade you several hundred thousand tons of ore in return for x amount of grain.

But you need to make the guns that ore's for yourself. Or get it off someone else.
You need a fusion reactor, trade the materials for it from the Free Guild. And then buildit yourself and hold onto it yourself. If you can't hold onto it, that's not the Free Guilds failing, that's yours.

Takiro · « **Reply #19 on:** November 29, 2019, 10:11:36 PM »

Quote from: marauder648 on November 29, 2019, 04:42:26 PM

But perhaps the Free guilds are akin to the Sol system Belters. They are not Clan (no warriors, not even police), but they also are because they have the caste system and provide for all as a kind of background meta thing.

This is what I was thinking. I've been trying to find details on the Strana Mechty system to see if it has belts or moons were this faction can take root. I doubt they have much beyond the Strana Mechty system like the Belters as well.

Also I was thinking in stark contrast to the Clans that the Guilders live extraordinarily long lives. Plus they tend to be rather cold and aloof folks.

Quote from: marauder648 on November 29, 2019, 04:42:26 PM

Of course other Clans can and do trade otuside of them, there's a far greater risk/reward payoff with such things but also a greater chance to big up your clan and shame those you dupe/do better than.

This is where the SHarks get a lot of their power. The Free Guilds could be in turn limited in what they can trade and the like, oh sure they can trade you several hundred thousand tons of ore in return for x amount of grain.

But you need to make the guns that ore's for yourself. Or get it off someone else.
You need a fusion reactor, trade the materials for it from the Free Guild. And then buildit yourself and hold onto it yourself. If you can't hold onto it, that's not the Free Guilds failing, that's yours.

I think we are on the same page here. Only things the Grand Council would have to sign off on (like Warship reactivation) and what could the Guilders do with individual Clans?

marauder648 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 30, 2019, 05:26:38 AM »

Yeah the Grand Council would have to sign off on 'big stuff' like pulling ships out of any shared naval caches *faint sounds of Snow Raven screeches in the background* but otherwise they'd probably have a kind of quota system that would be agreed upon by the Grand council to produce X amounts of resources and then this could be trialled for by the various Clans as a kind of winners pot.

Yes we have 18,000 tons of Endo-Steel ready as per requirement.

[Ghost bear] We bid for 4,500 tons of this allocation and offer X amount of Y resource.
[Smoke Jaguar] Pah! The Bears are being greedy, we challenge them for this bid!

who ever wins that Trial then gets the 4,500 tons of Endo-steel.

This way big industrial stuff like orbital facilities are not fought over too much as their loss would affect ALL the Clans. A Clans ground based production facilities however are free game but rarely fought over due to them being huge vital facilities and any Trial for them would be pretty much akin to a full on test of strength between the two competing Clans and would probably involve a full Galaxy if not more on each side. (See the Battle of Tokasha and the Battle of Niles, both were HUGE clashes).

And yeah having them be standoffish makes sense, as they have very little contact with people outside of the Guild. They could even start going like the Belters in thigny....space show..Roccinante...thing...where the Belters in that are physically adapting to living in space and the like (taller, longer limbed, not really suited for gravity) and they deliberately keep that distance to very pointedly NOT get involved with any Clan shenanigans or politics.

Takiro · « **Reply #21 on:** November 30, 2019, 06:24:56 AM »

A qouta system for strategic resources such the Union IIC and Overlord IIC made at Strana Mechty shipyards (mentioned in TRO 3057) would work. I see production as being split evenly among the Clans unless as you point out very correctly that it is either traded away willingly or trialed for.

I envision the Clans dependence and interaction with the Free Guilds declining after the Pentagon Civil War has been concluded. The Clans begin to amass their own resources and grow outside of Strana Mechty where the Guild does not. Hard for them to leave home so to speak. Instead they are left there as a remnant of the Clans beginning which of course leads to some wondering why we still need them. I see the Guild as largely isolated and not really thought of until the Outbound Light when the Clans return to the InnerSphere really shakes things up. Then we get the Jade Falcon dealings with transport. Which brings up another question? How does each Clan feel about the Free Guilds??

marauder648 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 30, 2019, 06:40:03 AM »

That makes sense, RE expanding and seeing the Free Guilds as a bit of a museium piece until Outbound light pops in and the Clans need every resource they can get their hands on.

As for how other Clans would treat them. I assume they're all basically freebirths and none of them are warriors (but they're probably formidable pilots) so it depends on how the Clan in question views Freeborn Merchants. But this is in turn cushioned by the distance and lack of interaction with them as i'm guessing that 99% of Trueborns would never ever interact with a Guilder outside of being on the bridge of a WarShip when they take a delivery or something. And it depends on the era. Early on they were a vital, needful thing but as the Clans and their population base grew they depended less on them despite the regular tithes that would come in without stop.

This would grow more tiresome and looked down upon until A Wild Outbound Light has appeared! At which point its a case of ALL the clans going GIMME GIMME!!!! for resources or transport.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #23 on:** November 30, 2019, 01:00:57 PM »

Quote from: Takiro on November 29, 2019, 04:29:39 PM

Could you expand on that concept Ice? Pretty hard for the Guilds to Trial for anything since they have no warriors and are not a Clan per say but at the same time are Clan. Let me say first off that the Clans have little regard for human liberty and thus people themselves could be a commodity hence trafficked like any other good.

I meant people doing Trials of Position for a position in this Free Guilds. Even if reserves are not popular with the Clans, linking it to the Second Exodus and to Nicholas would give them prestige and the right to "recruit" from any Clans but only from the non Warriors.
This could also serve as a breath in the system, allowing the non Warriors to do something worth being remembered too.

Takiro · « **Reply #24 on:** November 30, 2019, 05:23:38 PM »

Quote from: marauder648 on November 30, 2019, 06:40:03 AM

That makes sense, RE expanding and seeing the Free Guilds as a bit of a museium piece until Outbound light pops in and the Clans need every resource they can get their hands on.

As for how other Clans would treat them. I assume they're all basically freebirths and none of them are warriors (but they're probably formidable pilots) so it depends on how the Clan in question views Freeborn Merchants. But this is in turn cushioned by the distance and lack of interaction with them as i'm guessing that 99% of Trueborns would never ever interact with a Guilder outside of being on the bridge of a WarShip when they take a delivery or something. And it depends on the era. Early on they were a vital, needful thing but as the Clans and their population base grew they depended less on them despite the regular tithes that would come in without stop.

This would grow more tiresome and looked down upon until A Wild Outbound Light has appeared! At which point its a case of ALL the clans going GIMME GIMME!!!! for resources or transport.

Not only are they all freeborn (even though that term may not include necessary genetic modification to adapt to space and arranged coupling, etc.) but the long lived part is particular galling to the Warriors of Kerensky. They live fast and die with honor but the Guild in particular have long life spans (at least how I envision them) and despite your piloting assessment (they maybe the best spacers of the Clans outside Snow Raven) earn no glory. They exist only to serve the Warrior Caste of the Clans as a whole. This is why I am going to focus on what they have done to further the Clans as a whole in their write up. Showcase their value! But your right that the warriors generally look down on them and are disgusted by their age.

I might question if any Trueborn, save the ilKhan or Loremaster of the Clans, actually deals with them at all. Guild Keshik which I was thinking about more today is likely all freeborn at this point but perhaps some are old Trueborns exiled here. I was also thinking that perhaps this Keshik (Infantry and Aerospace, probably no Mechs at all) would be formed after the Annihilation of the Not Named Clan as a security procedure to make sure no one ever again hijacked these assets. Likely armed with all Star League equipment perhaps retrofitted with some Clan tech they may on the surface be seen as presitgious but like Katyusha and Ebon Keshik be more of a punishment in reality.

What do you think about this qoute from the Jade Falcon Sourcebook pg 21?

Quote

The Free Guilds, in return for the Falcons' long-standing disdain for their caste, charged that Clan extraordinarily high fees for each ship, while giving the other invasion Clans a far more reasonable rate.

Certainly sounds like the Falcons, and Jaguars too, would not appreciate them. Also how would they work around Grand Council oversight in this matter??

Quote from: Ice Hellion on November 30, 2019, 01:00:57 PM

I meant people doing Trials of Position for a position in this Free Guilds. Even if reserves are not popular with the Clans, linking it to the Second Exodus and to Nicholas would give them prestige and the right to "recruit" from any Clans but only from the non Warriors. This could also serve as a breath in the system, allowing the non Warriors to do something worth being remembered too.

I see the Guild as more of a 'closed' system Ice (i.e. not recruiting from the Clans but having their own original starting population which has grown) but like I stated before lower caste members are likely traded as commodities by Clans as a matter of business.

I doubt the Clans would want their best and brightest lower caste scientists for example getting away.

Ice Hellion · « **Reply #25 on:** December 01, 2019, 02:29:47 AM »

Quote from: Takiro on November 30, 2019, 05:23:38 PM

I see the Guild as more of a 'closed' system Ice (i.e. not recruiting from the Clans but having their own original starting population which has grown) but like I stated before lower caste members are likely traded as commodities by Clans as a matter of business.

I doubt the Clans would want their best and brightest lower caste scientists for example getting away.

No wonder they lost

The system worked with the greater good in mind but they forgot that.

Takiro · « **Reply #26 on:** December 01, 2019, 10:31:45 AM »

Yes they represent the greater good of the Clans whose might makes right philosophy prevents them from having a real seat at the table. I am sure that the ilClan proposal as part of Operation Revival was just the beginning of the end for the Free Guilds. Once someone calls for your absorption they gig was up. I'm sure Society infiltration was prevalent here as the Guild never wanted to be anything but what it was the strategic reserve of the Clans. The union that held the Clans together was all but dead following the death of the Jaguars as even the Grand Council's authority broke down.

The other Clans just shoot bye the Guild so to speak in terms of development but even the Grand Council may not have known the depths of their civilization's growth among the stars.

marauder648 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 04, 2019, 06:06:58 AM »

Quote

Not only are they all freeborn (even though that term may not include necessary genetic modification to adapt to space and arranged coupling, etc.) but the long lived part is particular galling to the Warriors of Kerensky. They live fast and die with honor but the Guild in particular have long life spans (at least how I envision them) and despite your piloting assessment (they maybe the best spacers of the Clans outside Snow Raven) earn no glory. They exist only to serve the Warrior Caste of the Clans as a whole. This is why I am going to focus on what they have done to further the Clans as a whole in their write up. Showcase their value! But your right that the warriors generally look down on them and are disgusted by their age.

This makes a great deal of sense, there's probably some genetic augmentation to survive the rigours of space but nothing so extreme as the Belters have adopted as this might be seen as a 'perversion' of the human form and considering the Clans get twitchy when you mess up language, I doubt they'd approve of severe changes to the human form.

As you said they exist only to serve the Warrior Castes of the Clans as a whole, and in a Warrior's eyes, they earn no honor or glory and are probably little better than labourours. But 99% of Warriors would never ever interact with the Guild outside of those who see them when they make deliveries etc or are escorting the Khan/saKhan when they meet with them to discuss a trade. Something tells me that the Warrior's might well be aware of the Guilds but that's it and they're more widely known amongst the Merchants, Scientists and Labor castes.

Quote

I might question if any Trueborn, save the ilKhan or Loremaster of the Clans, actually deals with them at all. Guild Keshik which I was thinking about more today is likely all freeborn at this point but perhaps some are old Trueborns exiled here. I was also thinking that perhaps this Keshik (Infantry and Aerospace, probably no Mechs at all) would be formed after the Annihilation of the Not Named Clan as a security procedure to make sure no one ever again hijacked these assets. Likely armed with all Star League equipment perhaps retrofitted with some Clan tech they may on the surface be seen as presitgious but like Katyusha and Ebon Keshik be more of a punishment in reality.

This is a possibility, perhaps some old Trueborns are given the 'honour' of acting as an ambassador to the Guild along with a small staff and again its 'prestigious' but its really a punishment.

Takiro · « **Reply #28 on:** December 04, 2019, 07:54:11 PM »

Quote from: marauder648 on December 04, 2019, 06:06:58 AM

This makes a great deal of sense, there's probably some genetic augmentation to survive the rigours of space but nothing so extreme as the Belters have adopted as this might be seen as a 'perversion' of the human form and considering the Clans get twitchy when you mess up language, I doubt they'd approve of severe changes to the human form.

Yeah nothing too extreme, as you point out the self anointed guardians of humanity (the Clans) would have a real problem with aliens like themselves.

They are pretty conservative, almost reactionary, if you think about it in many ways.

I was toying with the idea of calling the Guilders the 'Spaceborn' but that might be a bit much.

Still the Guilds would pretty much have a 'Free' hand in self governance. I was thinking more today about the Guildmaster and how I see succession proceeding. The main founder I simply called Markus (no last names here) and his successors take on a variation of that name (Kamrus, Arkmus, Rukmas, etc.). Also I see his line as something just short of hereditary akin to how the Director-General of the Terran Hegemony was elected. Meaning the Guild Council elects one of his descendants either through tradition with some experience necessary - say they have to serve as a Caste Leader (Scientist-General, Merchant Factor, Master Technician, Senior Laborer).

Quote from: marauder648 on December 04, 2019, 06:06:58 AM

As you said they exist only to serve the Warrior Castes of the Clans as a whole, and in a Warrior's eyes, they earn no honor or glory and are probably little better than labourours. But 99% of Warriors would never ever interact with the Guild outside of those who see them when they make deliveries etc or are escorting the Khan/saKhan when they meet with them to discuss a trade. Something tells me that the Warrior's might well be aware of the Guilds but that's it and they're more widely known amongst the Merchants, Scientists and Labor castes.

That is an interesting idea. Do you think that the Smoke Jaguar lower caste revolt on Londerholm was inspired by the Free Guilds? Or better question do Clans like the Jaguars who fear or loathe their social lessers seek to limit or ban contact with the Free Guilds? I'm sure like Ice suggested some lower castes would likely try to escape there if they knew of their relative freedom. This sounds like a good story seed for an incident with them. Lower caste escapees a historical example.

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This is a possibility, perhaps some old Trueborns are given the 'honour' of acting as an ambassador to the Guild along with a small staff and again its 'prestigious' but its really a punishment.

I like that idea for Guild Keshik - ambassadors more like overseers from the Clans is sort of what they are.

On another topic which I can place here thanks to your thoughts on piloting, what do you think of the Guild sponsoring a race? Racing was an idea I was throwing around recently in my head (admittedly as a Davion Outback pastime of Mech racing with NASCAR parallels) but it works here too. What if the Free Guilds prize sporting event is a race, perhaps again inspired by a historically event like the Pentagon Run or something? It would give their expert space pilots something to compete against each other in (Clan like) with no weapons of course.

marauder648 · « **Reply #29 on:** December 05, 2019, 10:01:57 AM »

I like your ideas for their leadership, perhaps not the naming one but yes it could be passed from person to person and it could be a descendent of the original founder of them who helped Nicky. They take in 'outsiders' to keep the genetics going and not be all inbread but yeah its basically a 'Royal Family'

I like the idea of there being an 'out' for some lower castes into the Guild, either perhaps as a kind of reverse tithe (need to mix up that genetic pool) or perhaps as something very very clandestine, a kind of slave railway kind of thing that offers a very dangerous out for those who want to leave their Caste etc.

Quote

I like that idea for Guild Keshik - ambassadors more like overseers from the Clans is sort of what they are.

I'd say they're not overseer's, rather 'observers' who might report back to the saKhan or leader of the Watch, they could even be a Watch agent themselves.

Quote

On another topic which I can place here thanks to your thoughts on piloting, what do you think of the Guild sponsoring a race? Racing was an idea I was throwing around recently in my head (admittedly as a Davion Outback pastime of Mech racing with NASCAR parallels) but it works here too. What if the Free Guilds prize sporting event is a race, perhaps again inspired by a historically event like the Pentagon Run or something? It would give their expert space pilots something to compete against each other in (Clan like) with no weapons of course.

Perhaps such a race could even be their 'trial of position', like how someone could try for a Trial of Position to get into the Scientist Caste by doing a PHD in X time or something. It could also be used as a trial against the Clans if they so chose to do some kind of trial to make them feel better.

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Author Topic: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers (Read 28522 times)

Takiro

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

Ice Hellion

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

Takiro

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

marauder648

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

Takiro

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

marauder648

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

Takiro

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

marauder648

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

Ice Hellion

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

Takiro

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

Ice Hellion

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

Takiro

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

marauder648

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

Takiro

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers

marauder648

Re: Free Guilds = Clan Spacers