OBT Forum

1. Perhaps their Touman is so small that they can't waste any good Warrior in a Keshik, which for the way the Clans fought against each other doesn't help much as they don't need strategical guidance (which I must yet see a Keshik truly giving).
I like the idea of faster reaction time on the battlefield but less "big picture" thinking. This is how they made us after all.

2. Or perhaps because of the pack mentality, the unit being used as a combat command is a Galaxy, making the Hellions able to hit in a fast and furious way. Bringing more guys to the battle than your opponent is half the success.
This means that apart for logistical purpose and references in each Codex, the sub units below the Galaxy wouldn't be that useful or considered.

3. Or they use Second-Line units as a training ground for officers waiting to earn their Bloodnames.

Good stuff gang, please keep the Ice Hellion talk going!

1. Perhaps their Touman is so small that they can't waste any good Warrior in a Keshik, which for the way the Clans fought against each other doesn't help much as they don't need strategical guidance (which I must yet see a Keshik truly giving).
I like the idea of faster reaction time on the battlefield but less "big picture" thinking. This is how they made us after all.

My no Keshiks observation leading to an 'everybody fights' mentality (see Starship Troopers) which could hamper strategic thinking and foster a very Blue Collar attitude (I'm a fighter not a commander) among the Hellions does take into account their size flux. Yes, their Touman is small now but as you read in their history (FM Crusader Clans) it Yo Yos a bunch. They go from big to small frequently it seems. In other Clans it seems as though their Keshiks all started out in larger formations but evolved as they grew. Perhaps the Hellions frequent binge and purge never allowed them to formally split Keshiks from their parent unit and similarly impacted their development.

2. Or perhaps because of the pack mentality, the unit being used as a combat command is a Galaxy, making the Hellions able to hit in a fast and furious way. Bringing more guys to the battle than your opponent is half the success.
This means that apart for logistical purpose and references in each Codex, the sub units below the Galaxy wouldn't be that useful or considered.

An ad hoc on the fly approach does fit the Hellions who live life by the seat of the pants. Ideas are not terribly refined before they are acting on here certainly. Speed or the will to act quickly (faster than the next guy) is prized but bringing more guys to the battle is something too unClanlike for me. I often wonder how much 'control' commanders have over their subordinates though? They probably never want to look away or always have to be on station in order to stay ahead of willful upstarts intent on 'Leroy Jenkins' all the time.

3. Or they use Second-Line units as a training ground for officers waiting to earn their Bloodnames.

Hmm, I spoke and in my next response to masterarminas will talk about the Clan's up and down nature. Their frequent and constant rebuilding. Wonder if they began the tradition of 'Seconds' or warriors who fail their initial Trial of Position only to be given another Trial which starts them on the Second Line path? Frequent turn over (which has got to be massive for the Hellions, more than any other Clan) has to force some innovative rebuilding methods one would think? And Hellion warriors surviving long enough to test down from front line to second line service might not be a thing. These guys live hard and die fast.

Some more observations -

Twin Setbacks Plus
The Ice Hellions have suffered from two recent setbacks as of FM Crusader Clans which is dated November 3059 just after the most recent. Efforts by the Wolves and the Jade Falcons to rebuild following the Refusal War also cost the Clan much. Fervent Crusaders swept up in the most recent Harvest of the time (the second according to me) went onto rob the Hellions of several front line binaries. In particular the 90th Striker Irregulars of Beta Galaxy lost several (3?) binaries in an honor duel commanded by Star Captain Greysolon Rood. Allegedly late saKhan Weiland Cage (another casualty of the Crusader Harvest) order him to lose in order to insure at least some Ice Hellions participated in the Great Crusade.
Delta Galaxy doesn’t appear to suffer from the Harvest but from other events including the Fury. The 2nd Assault Cluster lost several of its best warriors as isorla to the Star Adders while fighting on Dagda recently. The 33rd Striker Irregulars are being rebuilt slowly from their severe casualties during the Hellion’s Fury as part of a heavyweight experiment by Galaxy Commander Norizuchi. The 45th Striker Irregulars speak of no adverse casualties just a rough and tumble environment and interestingly enough the 53rd Striker Irregulars are part of a rumored fourth front-line Galaxy. So only Alpha Galaxy is spoken about suffering losses from the Hellion’s Fury alone regarding front-line forces.
   Second line wise the warriors of Zeta Prime Galaxy lost several trinaries to an unsanctioned raid on New Kent held by the Steel Vipers. Zeta Galaxy (which is very confusing to me but anyway) has suffered from several non-specific defenses against unknown opponents. Then there is Theta Galaxy which is not so much a unit as it is a collection of garrison warriors who travel with merchants. I would also point out here the Hellions initial Revival bid of 7 Galaxies and by the time of FM Crusader Clans they have only 6. From this I’d estimate greater invasion era strength from the Clan (i.e. in better shape then Snow Raven).

Small Organizational Regularity
Four (4) Trinaries seems to be considered a full-strength Cluster in the Ice Hellion Clan which often speaks of Binaries as well. Also, three Clusters seem to be the standard strength for Galaxies within the Clan.

Cold Attitude to Casualties
In every freaking page of the Ice Hellions report to the ilKhan there is talk of casualties and combined with their history and light Mech tendencies leads me to think that death is so frequent here among the Clan it is coldly regarded. This cavalier attitude towards death and causalities in general appears to be at its pinnacle here among the Ice Hellion Clan.

Duelers Supreme
Seem to rely on dueling more than other Clans in my opinion rushing a select few warriors (binary or trinary in size) to trouble points to resolve conflicts. This practice of limited commitment of resources is very Clan like and help them over time perhaps explaining why they have not been absorbed.

Unique Rules and Practices
From PackZell, to Zeta Galaxy dishonorable practice of resorting to harassment tactics, and Second Line Galaxy Commanders without Bloodnames (but who are trueborns in every case) the Hellions seem to have a ruleset of their own.

Good stuff gang, please keep the Ice Hellion talk going!

 

My no Keshiks observation leading to an 'everybody fights' mentality (see Starship Troopers) which could hamper strategic thinking and foster a very Blue Collar attitude (I'm a fighter not a commander) among the Hellions does take into account their size flux. Yes, their Touman is small now but as you read in their history (FM Crusader Clans) it Yo Yos a bunch. They go from big to small frequently it seems. In other Clans it seems as though their Keshiks all started out in larger formations but evolved as they grew. Perhaps the Hellions frequent binge and purge never allowed them to formally split Keshiks from their parent unit and similarly impacted their development.

Then perhaps they don't have the resources needed to waste them in Keshik since they have to rebuild often and can't have Warriors in an elite unit sitting still. This flux logic could be a reason for the no nicknames question. After all why bother to give a nickname to an unit that might in 5 years be destroyed or split or ...?

An ad hoc on the fly approach does fit the Hellions who live life by the seat of the pants. Ideas are not terribly refined before they are acting on here certainly. Speed or the will to act quickly (faster than the next guy) is prized but bringing more guys to the battle is something too unClanlike for me. I often wonder how much 'control' commanders have over their subordinates though? They probably never want to look away or always have to be on station in order to stay ahead of willful upstarts intent on 'Leroy Jenkins' all the time.

Too bad. I liked the idea of throwing more units (lighter ones of course) but I had another idea for the nicknames (see above).
However the control problem you describe makes me think of the German Army where commanding officers were quite aggressive and expected to be so, sometimes throwing entire plans in dismay.
But this tendency was tempered by the duo formed by the commanding officer and his Chief of staff, something not really in the Ice Hellion mentality.

Quote from: Ice Hellion on May 11, 2019, 05:22:49 PM

3. Or they use Second-Line units as a training ground for officers waiting to earn their Bloodnames.

Hmm, I spoke and in my next response to masterarminas will talk about the Clan's up and down nature. Their frequent and constant rebuilding. Wonder if they began the tradition of 'Seconds' or warriors who fail their initial Trial of Position only to be given another Trial which starts them on the Second Line path? Frequent turn over (which has got to be massive for the Hellions, more than any other Clan) has to force some innovative rebuilding methods one would think? And Hellion warriors surviving long enough to test down from front line to second line service might not be a thing. These guys live hard and die fast.

I meant the other way around from Second Line to Front Line.
Perhaps we are missing the reserve units (like National Guard)? After all, the idea for the Flurry Clusters had to come of somewhere.

The 'warfare' practiced by the other Clans (bidding, cutdown, etc.) likely makes any such Trial for territory fair no matter how vast it is.

The no nickname thing per unit does have a kind of logic to it especially if individuals are rapidly changing assignment due to high personnel turnover (i.e. transfer, promotion, death, demotion). Rather than places of honor they are temporary posts for individuals or smaller units. It looks to me that Binaries and Trinaries are more important to the Hellions than perhaps any other Clan. Again if they are frequently blitzing around dueling for whatever it gives little time for anyone to compile a unit history or anything else meaningful.

Can any effective check be put on Hellion subordinates who get foolish notions of glory though? Although it is a meta idea I could see the Hellions winning the lotto one day and scoring big. They sure take enough risks problem is it would soon be squandered given their mentality.

Flurries seem to be a third line force (in the same class as Watch and Police forces) created by Khan Stephen Tyler shortly before his death in order to hold Hellion possessions which must have been under constant attack. Look at their initial invasion bid, the Hellions had seven (7) Galaxies before and less than a decade later only (6) six. I bet one was broken down to make good on casualties to other units or destroyed in defensive combat not yet mentioned in canon sources.

Can any effective check be put on Hellion subordinates who get foolish notions of glory though? Although it is a meta idea I could see the Hellions winning the lotto one day and scoring big. They sure take enough risks problem is it would soon be squandered given their mentality.

Your analysis reminds of several books I read a few weeks ago on the German Way of War (https://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=12431).

A lot of what you describe would make sense with this focus.

Flurries seem to be a third line force (in the same class as Watch and Police forces) created by Khan Stephen Tyler shortly before his death in order to hold Hellion possessions which must have been under constant attack.

Which is true as they are deemed lower than Solahma units.
However, as with all Clans, we have very few info on the real garrison/police units. I don't buy that they thought they could conquer the Inner Sphere with so few troops.

The no nickname thing per unit does have a kind of logic to it especially if individuals are rapidly changing assignment due to high personnel turnover (i.e. transfer, promotion, death, demotion). Rather than places of honor they are temporary posts for individuals or smaller units. It looks to me that Binaries and Trinaries are more important to the Hellions than perhaps any other Clan. Again if they are frequently blitzing around dueling for whatever it gives little time for anyone to compile a unit history or anything else meaningful.

This could be consistent with their approach of not keeping Sibkos together during training.
However what puzzles me is the way the 3 different training camps are conducting their final trials as described in Field Manual Crusader Clans and as written on Sarna, see the last paragraph http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Ice_Hellion#Military
This would indicate that most are Warriors but that some are leaders/tacticians.

Are the Clans aggressive as a whole? Yes. They are Warriors on a crusade and eager to show the whole Universe that they are the best.

Is there a clear strategical approach? Not really apart for a few Clans (Star Adder, Ghost Bear and Wolf).

Is there a link between this extra aggressivity and the lack of strategical approach, after much reading (books like the one I mentioned) and thought (with the lack of real long range campaigns and the decisive character of any battle in the Clan space), I would say yes.

Are Hellions better at this than others? More quick to react to changes in front of them, with more faster designs, more aggressive... all of this means yes.
Are they more successful in the long run? Not at all but they somehow have the capacity to get back after being hit bad.
They must have a supply of trained MechWarriors, perhaps in some unknown third line forces. And for 'Mechs, can we consider that with the resources to manufacture 2 Timber Wolves, you can produce 5 Hellions?