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Author Topic: Third Marik Civil War  (Read 54544 times)

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Takiro

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2021, 06:31:18 PM »

The massive bomb that killed the embattled Captain-General Thomas Marik along with the imprisoned Precentor Demona Aziz, in what became known as the Atrean Assassination, brought with it a succession crisis. Paul Marik was left as the de facto Atrean Regent which quickly became known as the Minister-General for his lead intelligence role. Sickly Joshua Marik's refusal/inability to take the throne left Isis Marik as the heir-apparent for the Captain-Generalcy. [NOTE: Hanse's foreknowledge here comes into play as Joshua is not a true Marik but the son of the imposter and would therefore would not stand up to scrutiny] This was unacceptable to many League patriots who backed Paul's daughter Corrine for the position.

With Joshua out of the picture Chancellor Sun Tzu Liao acted rapidly authorizing operations by McCarron's Armored Cavalry (under contract to Isis) to seize Sadurni. This successful assault insured his fiancee's position as the rightful Captain-General who quickly picked up Blakist and Canopian endorsement. While most of Isis' actual military power has been supplied by the Capellans and deployed against Andurien other fanatical supporters have struck all over the League. The Cult of Isis sports a wide array of religious zealots from the Exituri of Shiloh, to Capellan Thugees, and even the Wrath of Blake. While very different groups they all believe that Isis is the Chosen One who will bring about a Great Rebirth. Committed to the rise of their messianic savior these devotees have struck out violently against her adversaries all over the League committing atrocities in her name. 

As the Liao-Marik sovereigns have claimed the fallen mantle of the Concord of Kapetyn many refer to them as the Concordians. Out of all the factions involved in the 3rd Marik Civil War they have the least amount of popular support within the Free Worlds League but those who do support them are zealous. 
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fabulousorcboy

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2021, 10:42:18 PM »

Suggestions offered below as edits.  Comes from thinking that "Cult of Isis" might sound kind of tone-deaf given how there's a real-life terrorist group named ISIS that is widely known (more so than the Egyptian goddess).  Plus, altering the Cult to be the "Cult of Horus" changes the role of Isis and really undercuts her power, as well as severely limiting her ability to escape the grip of the forces (especially Sun Tzu and Word of Blake) that are attempting to manipulate and control her.  As a fun side-note, it also means that Sun Tzu is effectively Osiris, whatever that means for the mythology of this constructed cult.

--------------

The bombing that killed the embattled Captain-General Thomas Marik along with the imprisoned Precentor Demona Aziz, in what became known as the Atrean Assassination, brought with it a succession crisis. Paul Marik was left as the de facto Atrean Regent which quickly became known as the Minister-General for his lead intelligence role. Sickly Joshua Marik's refusal/inability to take the throne left Isis Marik as the heir-apparent for the Captain-Generalcy. [NOTE: Hanse's foreknowledge here comes into play as Joshua is not a true Marik but the son of the imposter and would therefore would not stand up to scrutiny] This was unacceptable to many powerful League aristocrats who faced a dramatic loss of influence in the face of House Liao, and they instead backed Paul's daughter Corrine for the position.

With Joshua out of the picture Chancellor Sun Tzu Liao acted rapidly to reaffirm the Concord of Kapetyn and authorizing operations by McCarron's Armored Cavalry (under personal contract to Isis) to seize Sadurni. This successful assault ensured his fiancee's position as the rightful Captain-General and she quickly picked up Blakist and Canopian endorsements as well. While most of Isis' direct military power has been supplied by the Capellans and deployed against Andurien , clearly an effort to avoid antagonizing the powerful FWL provinces, a host of astroturfed fanatical supporters have struck all over the League. The so-called Cult of Horus appears to made up of a wide array of religious zealots from the Exituri of Shiloh, to Capellan Thugees, and even the Wrath of Blake. While very different groups they all believe that Isis is the living incarnation of the ancient Goddess Isis, who will bring about the resurrection of the League, which will rise like a phoenix (Horus) and dominate the Inner Sphere.  In this mythology, Sun Tzu's only role is to help bring about the birth of Horus, the Falcon heir to the reborn League. Committed to the ordained birth of their messianic savior these devotees have struck out violently against his mother goddess' perceived adversaries all over the League -- by coincidence, targeting primarily military and political assets openly supporting one of Isis Marik's rivals -- and committing atrocities in the name of her unborn (and as-yet conceived) heir.

As the Liao-Marik sovereigns have claimed the fallen mantle of the Concord of Kapetyn many refer to them as the Concordians. Out of all the factions involved in the 3rd Marik Civil War they have the least amount of popular support within the Free Worlds League but those who do support them are zealous. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 11:35:31 PM by fabulousorcboy »
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Takiro

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2021, 06:04:10 AM »

The Cult is really about Isis in my view as she is their fallen Master's actual daughter. As the Master's true heir it is her destiny to assume his holy mission. Granted she again is more of a symbolic figure and Isis herself wants little to do with these devotees and their acts. Sun Tzu is more pragmatic and simply isolates her to the greatest extent possible to their acts on her behalf. Granted their (or rather her) unborn child or children would would have similar power over these zealots. Originally the name comes from the Greek Cult of ancient times and links to real world terrorists are only in a name.

Who are these powerful League aristocrats? I think there is widespread general opposition to Isis becoming Captain-General because of many circumstances. The cloud that hung over Thomas before his assassination, her illegitimate birthright, oh and her relationship with Sun Tzu. While led by the powerful the revolt is popular and widespread here.

Who does this look for a new Province?

Quote
Kendall Coalition
Political Leader: Governor-General Helen Montcalm
Capital: Lakeland, Kendall
Number of Systems: 11 (Kendall, Kogl, Stotzing, Tormentine, Lepaterique, Hazeldean, San Nicholas, Atzenbrugg, Huntington, Landfall, Lahti)
Mech Strength: 1 regiment (the Free Lances)
Notes: Officially known as the Coalition of Unaffiliated Worlds this newly created Province centered on Kendall regards itself as the real Free Worlds League. During the opening days of the 3rd Marik Civil War this collection of independent systems formally banded together under the leadership of Jeffrey Marik and Helen Montcalm. According to the natives the Treaty of Kendall resembles the League’s Document of Incorporation as it should be – without any mutli-world members. Each coalition world is represented in the Provincial Parliament with a single member appointed by their own planetary government. While significant legislative powers rest with this interplanetary council strong executive authority rests with the Governor-General in times of crisis. With Kendall being the strongest world in the Coalition it is no surprise that their ruling House Montcalm is the go-to executive office holder here. Militarily the new province is struggling to form an effective defense force as its planetary militias, noble guards, and corporate forces are not that large. As such a new regiment called the Free Lances are being assembled across the Coalition with no single home base. Thankfully its personnel are being augmented by returning FWLM volunteers and trusted mercenaries but it is still a divided fighting force focused on defense spread thinly across the Province. The Lances can rely however on friendly interstellar transport companies for rapid redeployment if necessary, thanks to regularly arranged jump routes set up by the Freebird Enterprises. For now, this arrangement has worked well but if other Parliamentarian forces continue to push onward the Lances will have an increasingly difficult time patrolling their worlds.
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fabulousorcboy

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2021, 06:59:37 AM »

Quote
The Cult is really about Isis in my view as she is their fallen Master's actual daughter. As the Master's true heir it is her destiny to assume his holy mission. Granted she again is more of a symbolic figure and Isis herself wants little to do with these devotees and their acts. Sun Tzu is more pragmatic and simply isolates her to the greatest extent possible to their acts on her behalf. Granted their (or rather her) unborn child or children would would have similar power over these zealots. Originally the name comes from the Greek Cult of ancient times and links to real world terrorists are only in a name.

Yeah, this is one of those things where being pedantic isn't going to be very helpful -- the most widely known association with ISIS is the terrorist group.  Naming your fictional terrorist group "Isis" is real tacky.  Saying "well, that's the Greek name for the goddess!" isn't much of a defense, particularly since the Greek name is a really awkward corruption of Wusa or Aset.  Both of those are more 'authentic' to Meroe or Egypt than the Greeks...but they're also completely opaque, which is why I suggest "Cult of Horus" instead.  That completely sidelines Isis the character and highlights the astroturf (artificially constructed) nature of this so-called "Cult".  Yes, I get that some Exituri and Wobbly zealots believe this nonsense, but it's some brand new nonsense being pushed by the WOB higher-ups and/or Sun-Tzu right after the super-recent assassination of Thomas, not ancient scripture.  And Isis herself is all of 18? 19?  No way the Wobblies or Sun Tzu are letting her near any kind of power, even if it's supposedly symbolic.  You can turn symbolic power into actual power with the right back-up, just ask the Japanese Emperor Meiji.

Quote
Who are these powerful League aristocrats?

The dynastic families that control the major multi-world provinces of the Free Worlds League.  Like I said, I'm fuzzy on the exact details of the League, but I know the basic idea is that it has a couple of large, multi-world provinces that are effectively run by a major noble house (Halas in Oriente, Humphreys in Andurien, Cameron-Jones in Regulus, Marik in both Marik and Tamarind-Abbey, Graham in Graham-Marik, Stewart in Stewart, etc).  And historically, these families have basically controlled the League throughout its history.  Most of the independent worlds are one-system provinces, so do not have major dynastic families with the same level of political or economic power as the big provinces.

Quote
I think there is widespread general opposition to Isis becoming Captain-General because of many circumstances. The cloud that hung over Thomas before his assassination, her illegitimate birthright, oh and her relationship with Sun Tzu.
I don't think there's a need to be super complicated about why Isis isn't widely popular with the existing power structure.  If she was a savvy operator in her 30s, a lot of this opposition wouldn't exist.  It's the fact that she's a naive teenager with basically no political experience, and very very very obviously being used as a Trojan Horse by the Capellans, who were the League's biggest nemesis during the only very recently concluded Succession Wars.

Quote
Who does this look for a new Province?
Kendall Coalition
Political Leader: Governor-General Helen Montcalm
Capital: Lakeland, Kendall
Number of Systems: 11 (Kendall, Kogl, Stotzing, Tormentine, Lepaterique, Hazeldean, San Nicholas, Atzenbrugg, Huntington, Landfall, Lahti)
Mech Strength: 1 regiment (the Free Lances)
Notes: Officially known as the Coalition of Unaffiliated Worlds this newly created Province centered on Kendall regards itself as the real Free Worlds League. During the opening days of the 3rd Marik Civil War this collection of independent systems formally banded together under the leadership of Jeffrey Marik and Helen Montcalm. According to the natives the Treaty of Kendall resembles the League’s Document of Incorporation as it should be – without any mutli-world members. Each coalition world is represented in the Provincial Parliament with a single member appointed by their own planetary government. While significant legislative powers rest with this interplanetary council strong executive authority rests with the Governor-General in times of crisis. With Kendall being the strongest world in the Coalition it is no surprise that their ruling House Montcalm is the go-to executive office holder here. Militarily the new province is struggling to form an effective defense force as its planetary militias, noble guards, and corporate forces are not that large. As such a new regiment called the Free Lances are being assembled across the Coalition with no single home base. Thankfully its personnel are being augmented by returning FWLM volunteers and trusted mercenaries but it is still a divided fighting force focused on defense spread thinly across the Province. The Lances can rely however on friendly interstellar transport companies for rapid redeployment if necessary, thanks to regularly arranged jump routes set up by the Freebird Enterprises. For now, this arrangement has worked well but if other Parliamentarian forces continue to push onward the Lances will have an increasingly difficult time patrolling their worlds.

I think you're over-complicating this.  If Jeffrey leads the "Parliamentary" faction, he doesn't need to have a single large province of physically proximal worlds supporting him.  He can have the literally dozens of one-system provinces behind his candidacy, and some of those systems -- like Kendall and Irian -- are monstrously wealthy because of their armaments industries.  "Turtling up" in an eleven-world ad-hoc province makes it far too easy to crush his forces with the much larger semi-autonomous forces controlled by the major provinces.

Instead, if you keep his support diffuse, it makes it much harder for the other factions to fight him -- if you hit an isolated independent world too hard, you drive the other indie worlds even closer to Jeffrey.  If you leave them alone, he can use them as bases to attack from.  This isn't the American Civil War where a portion of the League has gone separatist and there are two clear geographic sides with large set-piece battles -- this is a battle for hearts-and-minds primarily, for every faction trying to get the Captain-Generalcy.  The major provinces are just as spread out as the minor ones, and the Concordians don't have a clear base of operations in the League, so you shouldn't think of this as a territorial fight.  It's more a bunch of skirmishes, a lot of black ops (small scale Merc insertions are perfect for gaming purposes), with occasional attacks on key targets of opportunity, like Sadurni.

Simpler to explain (and more realistic) for the split to look like:

(a) Big provinces and major noble families: essentially traditionalists that back Paul/Corinne, who have promised them greater autonomy.
(b) WOB, House Centralla, House Liao: all want to subvert the League and take it over from within.  Uneasy allies using Isis as a Trojan Horse.
(c) One-system provinces and corporations: want to cripple the Captain-Generalcy and weaken the major provinces.
(d) House Humphreys: traditional role of spoiler, getting dog-piled by everyone else.

That gives you a very easy fit to the English Civil War (faction-for-faction) and you can easily crib stories from real history -- even battles from real history -- to create detail for the Civil War.

If you really want a "Kendall Province", my suggestion is to make it diffuse and hard to pin down, centered around all the major corporate worlds, and a random selection of others, but very few of them "officially" supporting Jeffrey, which makes it much harder for the other factions to move against any of them decisively, for fear of losing support in the Civil War.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 07:11:16 AM by fabulousorcboy »
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fabulousorcboy

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2021, 04:49:12 PM »

FWL CORPORATIONS & THEIR PROVINCES
So here are all the major armaments firms listed on Sarna for the FWL.  Marik (and House Marik) directly control a lot of companies, but very few Mech producers.  They're reliant on the other big provinces (Oriente, Regulus), while Jeffrey has a lot of firms that are based on indie world provinces.  I assume the minors will split between the major factions fairly evenly, and I'm always surprised at just how many armaments firms are part of Andurien -- amazing that House Marik doesn't just strip them and move them to elsewhere in the League after all the shenanigans that Andurien gets involved in.

MAJORS:

Andurien:
Andurien Aerotech (Andurien, Lopez) - ASF
Brooks Inc (Andurien) - vehicles
Grumman Amalgamated (Andurien) - vehicles
Irian Technologies (Lopez, Shiro III) - refit/mechs (Lopez), mechs (Shiro)

Marik:
Deller-Bingham-Fouts (Atreus) - small craft, dropships
Earthwerks Inc (Keystone) - mechs
Exeter Organization (Keystone) -vehicles
Illium Shipyards (Atreus, Ionus) - ASF, Warships (by 3067)
Imstar Aerospace (Marik, Atreus) - ASF
Irian Technologies (Angell II, Washburn) - refits/mechs
Technicron Manufacturing (Tongatapu) - mechs

Oriente:
Earthwerks Inc (Calloway VI) - mechs

Regulus:
Earthwerks Inc (Tiber) - vehicles
Ronin Inc (Wallis) - mechs


MINORS:

Minor: Gibson
Brigadier Corporation (Gibson) - dropships
Gibson Federated Battlemechs (Gibson) - mechs, battlearmor

Minor: Graham-Marik
Kallon Industries (Loyalty) - vehicles, dropships
Selasys Inc (Loyalty) - jumpships

Minor: Rim Commonality
Nimakachi Fusion Products (Tematagi) - Mechs

Minor: Silver Hawks
Imstar Aerospace (Amity -- technically.  probably Marik influenced) - ASF
Kali Yama Weapons (Kalidasa) - mechs, battlearmor
Quickscell Company (Kalidasa) - vehicles

Minor: Stewart
Corean Enterprises (Stewart) - Mechs, battlearmor

Minor: Tamarind
Technicron Manufacturing (Tamarind) - jumpships

Minor: Zion Province
Brooks In (Suzano) - vehicles
Earthwerks Inc (Asuncion) - mechs
Kallon Industries (Asuncion) - mechs



INDIES:

Indie Province
Andurien Aerotech (Westover) - ASF
Brigadier Corporation (Mackenzie) - small craft, dropships
Brooks Inc (Irian, Kendall) - vehicles
Earthwerks Inc (Bernardo) - mechs
Grumman Amalgamated (Trellisane) -ASF
Irian Technologies (Irian) - mechs, battlearmor
Kali Yama - Alphard Trading (Kendall) - mechs
Kallon Industries (Bernardo, Thermopolis) - mechs
Nimakachi Fusion Products (Dalton) - dropships
Technicron Manufacturing (Savannah) - Mechs
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2021, 01:33:50 PM »

Regarding the Cult of Isis, I understand fabulousorcboy's point of view but people with some historical knowledge or with a mother tongue that isn't English will not link the two.
It is up to Takiro.

Or you could not name the cult and display its colors, aka as Isis in hieroglyphs?

Sickly Joshua Marik's refusal/inability to take the throne left Isis Marik as the heir-apparent for the Captain-Generalcy. [NOTE: Hanse's foreknowledge here comes into play as Joshua is not a true Marik but the son of the imposter and would therefore would not stand up to scrutiny] This was unacceptable to many League patriots who backed Paul's daughter Corrine for the position.

Could there be another faction trying not understanding Joshua's position and trying to bring it to the throne in spite of himself?
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

fabulousorcboy

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2021, 05:50:01 PM »

More factions = more chaos = more awesome!

Maybe Joshua in a Duke of Monmouth set-up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Scott,_1st_Duke_of_Monmouth
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Takiro

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2021, 10:58:22 PM »

Formulating more as we speak.
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Takiro

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2021, 10:19:53 PM »

How does this look?

Quote
The Religious Divide [House Marik Sourcebook (page 75-77) & Handbook House Marik (page 114-116)]
   A bastion of religious freedom the Free Worlds League has always maintained by law a strict separation between Church and State. As a result, the nation has a host of different faiths practicing within its borders as the Third Marik Civil War approaches. This brutal internal conflict which will witness horrific extremist attacks driven by rival claimants will challenge this tradition like none before.

Marik Orthodoxy
   Perhaps the biggest story opportunity we have here is for the establishment of a unique ‘House Religion’ which could help unify the fractious Free Worlds League. It could be born out of the 3rd Marik Civil War and the split between this large second largest Christian sect. Seems that Roman Catholicism has grown during the Succession Wars (to the point where it and not the Orthodox Church is mentioned in HMSB pg. 76) so there could be a certain patriotic spark for revivalism here. I am thinking that the Orthodox Patriarch of Atreus who plays a ceremonial role in the enthronement of the Captain-General might support the True Mariks (Corrine/Paul) while the Patriarch of Marik supports the Parliamentarians (Jeffrey). This could be reversed however and mirrors the breakdown of order in the Free Worlds League. I see all three Marik Captain-General candidates as adherents of this faith and Isis as you will not is completely absent in my assessment. Out of this internal power struggle could emerge an entire new entity, the Marik Orthodox Church which could be the League version of the New Avalon Catholic Church. More on that later…..

Roman Catholicism
   While the largest Christian sect in the Free Worlds League I see political non-involvement urging all sides to make peace for the common good. This could lead to an unprecedented joint declaration from the Pope and the Patriarch on Terra that coincides with the Bi-Millennial anniversary of the Great Schism in 3054 (which would likely be coming up on the second year of the Civil War) which could provoke a harsh rebuke from the True Mariks. Typically denouncing all things foreign and growing in isolationism (perhaps verging on xenophobia) during the war this could lead to the launch of the Marik Orthodox Church which officially breaks away from the old order. This could effectively force Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox sects into other camps most likely Jeffrey’s. 

Protestantism
   While the smallest and most diverse of the three main Christian sects in the League it is the Protestant churches who have been the most politically active. This is largely due to the establishment of the Free Worlds Protestant Synod in the early 2300s which bond together their churches and societies. The Synod has previously made numerous declarations on moral and ethical matter over the years. It is clear to me that they would strongly back the Parliamentarians over the other candidates for the Atrean throne.

Judaism
   The emergence of Neo-Zionism establishes Zion as the center of this religion in the Free Worlds League thanks to the Third Civil War. Establishing this border world as a safe haven is largely due to the intervention of the Zion Defenders who are handsomely backed by external benefactors (i.e. the Sandovals of Robinson). This outside support leads to persecution and the extremism which engulfs the nation doesn’t help matters either. Subsequent migration to the great bazaars of Zion produces the first Jewish homeworld in the League whose goal is to provide the second most extensive faith a real voice in the government.

Islam
   The Moslem community experiences a regional growth in power during the Third Marik Civil War as the Mosiro Archipelago is joined by three other Islamic Provinces. The Principality of Tarmanid centered on Ayn Tarma made up of eight worlds, the Ghazni Sultanate based on Ghaziabad along with three other worlds, and the Crescent Ternion whose capital is on Jubka. While these 18 planets aren’t wholly composed of the followers of Muhammed their sudden emergence has made others take notice. Currently the Islamic Worlds Assembly is being planned which has representatives from 17 Moslem planets including Ideyid, Kanata, and even Astrokaszy coming to meet on Ayn Tarma.

Hinduism
   Regulan expansionism has been bolstered by shared cultural traits such as Hinduism which has served to help reforge the old Selaj worlds into a single political entity. These shared beliefs do have their distinct differences but all have been revolted by extremist attacks carried out by the Capellan Thugees. Viewed as masquerading usurpers of their sacred religion these foreign interlopers are opposed by no one as much as Regulan Hindus. As a result, there is little to no support for Isis within the worlds of the resurgent Principality and its allies.

Buddhism
   Present along the Capellan border mainly this faith which has been championed in particular by Isis has failed to mobilize for any faction in the Third Marik Civil War. Followers of this faith have been content to sit this conflict out seeing little reason to join in the fratricidal warfare that is sweeping the rest of the nation.

Cult of Isis
   This extremist catchall which fanatically backs Isis Marik has clear roots in the growth of nihilism within the Free Worlds League witnessed during the Succession Wars. Spurred on by the Wrath of Blake it combines many different faiths like the Way of Arme, the Exituri of Shiloh, and Capellan Thugees who all see her as the Chosen One. This follows the death of their Master Thomas Marik at the hands of the apostates which they have vowed to avenge by fulfilling his destiny. That legacy is now engaged in violent extremism all over the Free Worlds League in hopes of bringing the rightful heir to the Atrean throne and beyond.
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fabulousorcboy

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2021, 04:17:56 AM »



TFW someone keeps insisting that no, his fictional and now OVERTLY RELIGIOUS TERRORIST GROUP is not at all related to that other totally real-life overtly religious terrorist group.

No no, it's supposed to be Space Egyptian, even though it's got absolutely no Egyptian Mythology but instead is made up of Hindu/Islamic (Exituri) and nihilistic (Arme) elements, all leavened with a heavy dose of techno-fundamentalism (Word of Blake) and more than a little Orientalism  (Thuggee).  Because that combination of beliefs is TOTALLY different from the thing that is the entire first page of Google results when you type in "ISIS".  All based on the name of a fictional space princess that always needs rescuing, because obviously the first thing you associate with hapless princess tropes is a violent religious cult.

Sometimes you gotta kill your babies https://slate.com/culture/2013/10/kill-your-darlings-writing-advice-what-writer-really-said-to-murder-your-babies.html, Takiro.  There's not any real justification to insisting on keeping the name of the fictional terrorist group "Isis" -- aside from the fact that it's the same name as the fictional space princess you're fanfic'ing about -- and it's going to come across as tacky to anyone from American or British internet...which is the vast majority of the English-language internet.  Sure, the French, German, Israeli, and Middle-Eastern readers here won't automatically make the connection, but that's like insisting that Precentor Ivan A Hardt-Nipple is named in honor of two WW2 veterans and silver star recipients.  And it's just a coincidence that he's into bondage.  And likes to go shirtless in the Mech cockpit because...um...it gots all hard in there.  I mean hot.  It gets hot in there. 

C'mon, I'm not beating this horse because I'm a stubborn git, I'm trying to point out to you that you might not want to die on this particular hill.  I'd do the same if you were insisting on naming a fictional political party the "National League Worker Party" or "National Socialists" or any such combination.  At a certain point you gotta stop digging, because authorial intent isn't going to over-ride any real world meaning of things.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 05:20:20 AM by fabulousorcboy »
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fabulousorcboy

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2021, 04:57:45 AM »

As to the other religions:

(1) Creating a state religion historically is a form of autocratic centralization of power.  As you've designed the Paul/Corinne faction, they lack the power to create and control a Marik state religion, and are more likely to sponsor the Orthodox Patriarchs as a way to gain another powerful faction ally -- a modern-day parallel being the president-for-life of Russia, especially years ago before he consolidated most of his current power.  But if they do this, the Orthodox faith in the FWL (or whichever Patriarch seizes control of the Marik Orthodox faith) needs to have nearly all adherents of the faith supporting the 'new' state religion, or it's just going to fracture into a handful or more of localized communions.

(2) Making this a religious conflict very nicely mirrors the English Civil War.  But in the ECW, all four sides were of very distinct religious traditions.  Doing it this way would conveniently prevent the Orthodox church in the FWL from completely splintering as soon as the Civil War starts, which it likely would if multiple claimants were all Orthodox and vying for the support of the Churc  The House Marik Handbook breaks it down like this:

Marik & Oriente (most likely to be Paul/Corinne): mostly Orthodox
Parliamentary (most likely to be Jeffrey): Protestant and Mormon
Regulus (sounds like they're trying to be indie): mostly Hindu and Sikh

The other major provinces aren't noted in the Handbook as dominated by any religions, but Tamarind (Islam) makes sense from fluff, as does Andurien (Catholic).

An Orthodox (Paul/Corinne), Protestant+Mormon (Jeffrey), Catholic (Andurien), and astroturf Cult (Concord Sun-Tzu/Isis) face-off sounds pretty entertaining from a story point of view.

Note that the Handbook states that the Buddhists are not really concentrated anywhere, but scattered about the League.  Note that the Handbook is also pretty clear that the ultra-conservative K'wara Islam of Mosiro is not really compatible with other varieties of Islam.  Finally the Exituri are very clearly a messianic Hindu/Shia mix, based on how they are described in Interstellar Players and their focus on the return of the Mahdi -- I'm not sure where the paganism part of the description above comes from.  Is it because Interstellar Players mentions a pentagram carried by some Exituri?  That's too generic a religious symbol to be meaningfully anything (it's Taoist and Judaic, as well as Christian until the 1800s)

If you're trying to use canon FWL cults as part of your WOB-sponsored terrorist front, the Eleusinists and Delphists (both on p116 of the Handbook) are pretty good fits to a cult that worships a teenage space princess as the living incarnation of an ancient polytheistic goddess.  The Exituri make some sense because they're clearly WOB controlled in canon, and I suppose you're making the case that the Way of Arme is, too.  The Thuggee only make sense if Sun Tzu is part of this scheme as well, because in canon they're controlled by his sociopathic baby sister Kali, and entirely based in the Capellan Confederation -- and not infiltrated by the Word yet (at least in canon).
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 05:04:40 AM by fabulousorcboy »
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2021, 03:53:14 PM »

How does this look?

I will stick to one approach or another. I mean go for the political one or the religious one but not mix both as it doesn't really suit what I read from your universe.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2021, 09:28:32 PM »

I really don't see anything wrong with the Cult of Isis but it isn't the most dear thing to me either in this scenario. We can always come up with another name to describe the fanatical zealots who are committed to their vision of her legacy as the Master's daughter. View it as a placeholder until something better comes along. No big deal.

Not going with one approach or another Ice just trying to cover every aspect. Religions and how they effect or how they were effected by the 3rd Marik Civil War is just one aspect of many I will try to cover.
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fabulousorcboy

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2021, 03:08:26 PM »

Don't know how much modern religious terminology you want to use, but it looks like a couple of these cults working for the Concord have something in common:

Exituri: messianic Hindu/Muslim, waiting for the Madhi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi
Delphism: implied to be messianic, waiting for one or more of the Greek gods or goddesses and reviving interest in the old polytheistic faiths (originally, Delphi was all about just Apollo, but that's not how the FWL Handbook describes it)
Eleusinism: historically Persephone & Demeter, or mother goddesses and the Spring, although described in FWL book as Athena worship
Way of Arme: combat otaku as a form of "Five Rings" style mysticism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Five_Rings
Word of Blake: basically nihilistic evangelist techno-mysticism honoring Conrad Toyama's rewrite of the history of the Star League and Blake.
Thuggee Cult: historically a quasi-religious thieves' guild or early modern South Asian mafioso.  Supposedly the 'tears of Kali', the destroyer goddess of the Hindu pantheon.  **usually** seen as a destroyer of evil, but that's very open to interpretation.

So if Isis is the living incarnation of a goddess, there's a lot of choose from that the other groups can all syncretize around.  Why not some of the following?

The Mahavidya: the ten Dharmic goddesses in one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavidya
* I suggest this because the 10 aspects include Kali as the chief aspect
* note that Bhairavi, the fifth aspect, is easily syncretized as an 'archangel' of Allah, for Muslims (the Thuggee did this, for example).  She'd be comparable to Michael in the Catholic tradition here.
* Finally, if ten is a large number, note that the ten-fold aspect is often interchanged/mixed with the three-fold goddess Shakti: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Parashakti

I can't find any example of Athena being used in a triune, but there are examples of Minerva (the Roman equivalent) mixed with Diana and and Vesta (hearth).  Diana is very commonly part of a triune, so more on this below:

Diana: Roman variant of Artemis, later in Roman history was a triple goddess with Selene (moon) and Hekate (magic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology)#As_a_triple_goddess
* Persephone is also often seen as a triple-goddess, along with Hecate and Selene.  But there's much more surviving evidence about Diana who replaced her in this role, so the link goes to Diana.  Persephone/Demeter are often seen as two parts of a triple goddess as well, with the "old crone" role played by Hecate (usually), and Persephone as the daughter and Demeter as the mother.  Or sometimes something else!  Polytheism is hugely varied.
* Note that Isis was often linked with Demeter (as well as Hera, Selene, and Hecate) when the ancient Greek and Egyptian cultures syncretized under Greek rule.

At any rate, my suggestion is that a "Cult of the Trinity" is open-ended enough to incorporate all these (very very different) deities and beliefs, while still having appeal to the many, many Christians (= belief in the Trinity) in the League.  The whole point of having a three-fold goddess in a polytheistic religion is precisely so you can mix and match popular deities as you need or desire, and/or make correspondences between otherwise utterly different ones so that everyone can participate in a larger cult or denomination or communion (or whatever you want to call it).  It's also open-ended enough to appeal to the WOB, although I can't immediately think of a good choice to be the third member of a WOB trinity after Blake and Toyama.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 06:45:04 PM by fabulousorcboy »
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Third Marik Civil War
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2021, 04:19:28 PM »

So if Isis is the living incarnation of a goddess, there's a lot of choose from that the other groups can all syncretize around.

Why not the mother? Or the daughter?
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5
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