OBT Forum

I have not generally written about naval forces in CBT, because the main focus has always been on ground combat. However, what was fine for CBT will simply not do for SD/SC, as the slaughter of the First Succession War has not commenced. That said, I read both related posts; here's my take:

Combat Naval infrastructures are stupendously expensive in the best of times, and there has to be a pressing and immediate need to build dedicated, single-purpose warships at any stage of civilization - shipping is always the most expensive infrastructure out there, and building combat vessels that might never fire a shot in anger (like the B-36 bomber) over merchant vessels that will contribute significantly to the polity's treasury is a very tough sell if the barbarians aren't baying at the gates.

In short, you will only see warships if someone is threatening your "sea" (water or stellar) commerce with armed ships of their own.

At first, as is borne out in the classic Kurita sourcebook, what we see is Shiro Kurita packing troops onto armed merchantmen, and bluffing through his lack of Warships...quickly followed by a naval R&D program to develop them for real.

The first problem for a Successor House is: "What are your Warships for, exactly?" There are only a couple of real uses:

1. "Show The Flag" - sail around, impressing the locals and your neighbors with how cool and/or scary you look; this is largely useless, as well as counterproductive, because the locals are usually far more pissed off than intimidated, and your neighbors will respond by wetting their pants, then building a fleet to counter yours...

2. "Defend The SLOC (Space Lines Of Communication)" - Essentially, protect your merchant vessels from the Other Guy's Warships and commerce raiders; this is one-half of the "Mahan Doctrine": this was the standard for most navies from WW1 (where the British defended their convoys in the First Battle of the Atlantic, while blockading Imperial Germany at the mouth of the Baltic), through WW2 (Britain survived by repeating its success in the Atlantic, while the failure of the Imperial Japanese Navy to adhere to it allowed the US Navy's submarine units to completely destroy their merchant marine, doing more to end the war than all the bombs dropped on the Home Islands) and well into the 50's.

3. "Seek The Decisive Engagement" - Mahan's corollary to #2: Build and maintain a fleet strong enough to seek out the bulk of the Enemy's fleet and destroy them in a single, decisive engagement that will - in theory - cripple the Enemy's operations to the point of significantly shortening the war. Both the US and Imperial Japanese Navies spent the bulk of WW2 trying to do just that, and got three major fleet actions for their trouble: Coral Sea, Midway, and Leyte Gulf -- the first was a tie, the last two were smashing victories - http://combinedfleet.com/battles/ - for the Americans. (See also: http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm)

In the end, Mahan's doctrine was largely proved correct.

4. "Force/Power Projection" - This is what the USN has been doing since c.1960: parking "Four acres of sovereign American territory" off of some 3rd World hellhole's turf in what amounts to horrendously-expensive "gunboat diplomacy". Note that this includes anti-piracy patrols.

.....So.

Where does this put us for SD/SC?

With a c.2800 start, this puts us in the following situation:

The Terran Republic Navy is made up of the remnants of the surviving SLDF, Terran Hegemony and RWR fleets that neither left with Kerensky, nor bailed for a House navy. Whereas they are much smaller than any one of their opposition forces, they are virtually all manned by hardened, battle-seasoned veteran crews, who will quickly readjust to their reduced circumstances, and who have actually fought in some actual fleet actions. Far more so than with the remaining SLDF ground troops, the TRN will become the bedrock that the Republic survives on.


SHIPS

If you are building a "real navy" in the BTU, you will have the following ship classes to work with:

1. Warships
2. Civilian Jumpships
3. Combat Dropships (including both Monitors and smaller ships, like the Achilles, as well as carriers like the Titan and Vengeance)
4. Merchant Dropships
5. Aerospace Fighters
6. Civilian Shuttlecraft

The Warships are the Main Striking Arm - they are both fire brigade and 'cavalry force', either rapidly responding to an attack/invasion, or making fast "smash-n-grabs" against enemy worlds and fleet concentrations, all while escorting merchant fleets to keep supplies and goods flowing. For the record, while pulling a "Turtle Bay" might look and sound impressive, it really - REALLY - isn't.

So - why the different Warship classes? Simple: Just because you know how to build a container ship, that doesn't mean that you know how to build a battlecruiser -- at least, not yet. Since Warships are so bonking expensive, you build your fleet slowly, getting steadily bigger and better ships as your naval shipbuilding capacity expands.This, of course, results in a plethora of designs that are too valuable to simply scrap without a good reason, and thus are kept in "mothballs" - the US maintains the National Defense Reserve Fleet for just this reason.

Most battlemech units on the move will look very similar to CBT units, in that they will usually get to their targets via Civilian Jumpships, then undock and drop on the planet. However, you will see a lot more Monolith's ferrying pure Combat Dropships by the bushel to act as in-system escorts. Merchant dropships will be ferrying supplies to the troops, as well as acting as "under-way replenishment" tankers for the Warships, Jumpships, Dropships and Fighters.

Generally speaking, monitors and smaller boats like the Achilles-class will be dedicated to defending systems, since they fill the same function as WW2-era PT Boats (which, ton for ton, were the most heavily-armed ships in WW2); however, monitors are a much better use of docking collar for a Cameron than a regiment of battlemechs.

Aerospace Fighters are going to be one of the mainstays of any fleet, whether based on a battlecruiser or carried aboard a Vengeance because, although individually weak compared to a Warship or a Dropship, they are a potent threat in large groups, and fighter squadrons can be spread over much of a system at once acting as scout/picket "sensor extenders" (see the classic-Battlestar Galactica episode "Lost Planet of the Gods") -- so, seeing a Monolith arrive in-system with a trio of Vengeance's and six monitors or Achilles' would be pretty standard.

What did I leave out?

1. "Show The Flag"
2. "Defend The SLOC (Space Lines Of Communication)"
3. "Seek The Decisive Engagement"
4. "Force/Power Projection"

1. Show the flag is not really working as we are in space, which is huge: why would you care that there is a Frigate above you (I am not talking about big bad BattleShips that can destroy whole cities)?

2. Defend the SLOC: Space is huge and your ships cannot be everywhere (or they are going to be destroyed).

3. Seek the decisive engagement: so typical and yet so true.

4. Force/Power Projection: yes, raids and invasion all the way.

For me, only 3 and 4 are realistic options.

Showing the Flag can be fairly effective against the many small and independent worlds that are scattered around. Even a Frigate has impressive firepower and can wipe a city off the map.  Keep in mind that some of the earliest atrocities - Franco Liao wiping Capella Prime off the map and the attacks on Novaya Zemlya were done with either retrofitted merchant vessels or early warships like the Du Shi Wang which barely qualifies as a battleship.

As for defending the SLOC that also extends to protecting jump points in key systems -whether it is the zenith & nadir points or pirate points. If you don't hold those then it becomes difficult if not impossible to bring in supplies and reinforcements.  At that point the enemy can simply blockade you and starve you out- or orbitally bombard you, rather then deploy ground troops.

I had understood that defending the SLOC was escorting the convoys more than seating somewhere waiting for the enemy to attack you.
Yes, convoy escort is effective but you have to put people in the convoys (not an easy task at first, just check WWI and WWII).

And Irose, your defence of key points is more akin to an invasion process (and even then, no one will ever try to defend every jump point in space).

The Space (Sea) Lines of Communication are the primary routes between ports. Defending your SLOCs means keeping those routes open- which means more then just convoys. Convoys are good for protecting ships from subs and airplanes but you also need to protect against mines or any obstructions (such as say the chain that was put across the Hudson River during the Revolutionary War to keep British ships from traveling up the river) along the route.  Having a convoy doesn't do any good if your convoy can't make port because the harbor is blockade by mines.  One way to deny your enemy use of the SLOC is to control a key choke point - say Gibralter, the Suez Canal, Panama Canal, Cape Horn, Cape of Good Hope, etc.  If you can deny access through the choke point, you don't need to worry about the rest of the route. 

In BT Jump Points are the key choke points of the SLOCs.  If you want to keep your SLOCs open then you need to keep your jump points free of the enemy. 

Also, why go for the bombing option first?

Why not- if you are willing to threaten to use force, then you had better be willing to back up those threats. 

Quote from: lrose on March 05, 2010, 03:50:42 PM

In BT Jump Points are the key choke points of the SLOCs.  If you want to keep your SLOCs open then you need to keep your jump points free of the enemy. 

I see your point but do you think any navy is big enough to do that on all its Jump Points?

It depends how well you want them defended.  Also many of these points would be defended by space stations, fighters and dropships rather then warships, much like up through WW2 major ports were defended by a variety of forts and artillery emplacements.

This means orbital instillations and planets themselves. 

I am the only one to see the fun here?
You build orbital installations to dig, manufacture and protect your factories, installations, planets and Jump Points.
And then the only things worth fighting for are those installations meant to protect your side. 

@Kit: Thank You -- Not many people remember that.

Most of the non-Jump capable combat vessels would be defending close-in to the world in question, on or near a moon, or at the LaGrangian points around the planet, coupled to launch-on-order bases on the world itself. You would need monitors and fighters to cover recharging stations in traditional locations, but those would usually be deemed "acceptable losses".

I see naval warfare in the BTU as primarily Mahanian, in that the fleets will raid commerce when they can, but will always seek the decisive battle, first...Unfortunately, that includes parking something with big missiles off a planet, and bombarding it - while avoiding the planetary HPG - to force the enemy fleet to come to you....