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Author Topic: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)  (Read 13060 times)

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Takiro

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Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« on: October 31, 2010, 10:48:19 PM »

Years ago I developed some BattleMechs based on existing designs from TRO3025 that mounted Internal Combustion Engines rather than standard Fusion Power Plant. The rules for these Low Tech ‘Mechs can be found in Explorer Corps (FASA 1681) on pages 78 – 80. With the release of TRO 3075 and the introduction of RetroTech which isn’t quite the same as this idea I wanted to post this. What I’d like do here is to share my thoughts and get your input on a few potential settings where such a Project could be beneficial. Maybe even design a few of these bad boyz with ya all. Here are some of the drawbacks and benefits as I see them for ICE Mechs.

Low Manuverability. Two big problems ICE Mechs have to overcome is the fact that ICE rated engines weigh twice as much as their identical fusion counterparts and Jump Jets can not be mounted on ICE equipped ‘Mechs. Because of the large difference between power to weight ratio for internal combustion engines when compared to even a normal fusion engines, ICE BattleMechs tend to be slower than those equipped with fusion engines. A good rule of thumb I found for standard movement for weight classes is the following; Light - 6,9 / Medium - 4,6 / Heavy - 3,5 / Assault - 2,3.

No Integral Heat Sinks. Since internal combustion engine equipped BattleMechs come with no free heat sinks 2 or 3 tons must be preserved for heat sinks right at the start of construction to dissipate heat created by movement. Additional heat sinks must be added for weaponry also.

Power Amplifiers. If your going to equip your ICE Mech with energy weapons you’ll need to include amplifiers which takes up 1 ton of weight per 10 tons of energy weapons. As a result of this and the fact that such Mechs come with no integral heat sinks ballistic and missile weaponry is likely preferred.

Lower Survivability. The fact that ICE Mechs by their very nature are more apt to explode than their higher tech brethren is another drawback. When critical damage is taken to the engine there is a chance that a catastrophic explosion will occur. Since these Mechs prefer ammunition based weaponry by their very nature which also explodes when hit such dangers can not be under estimated.

Low Versatility. ICE Mechs have certain atmospheric limitations which prevents their usage in exotic venues. This really hampers their deployment off world which has to be taken into account. However such Mechs would be used primarily in a defensive role on their home planet relegating this issue to the least of your worries.

Low Price. On the positive side, finally I have something good to say about ICE Mechs, compared to the price of normal Fusion Engines (5,000 x Rating x Tonnage)/ 75 the ICE costs (1,250 x Rating x Tonnage)/ 75. Of course we will have to see if the savings is worth it.

Ease of Construction. Lower tech materials are much more readily available and could produced in a variety of different places. Existing industry may already be sufficient to facilitate the construction of these lower tech Mechs enabling a great build up of these machines. Quantity over quality. Creation of a series of uniform designs for this project based on existing ‘Mechs could enhance defense especially on a local level.

So now for an example, Atlas AS7-D costs 9,626,000

Gargantua
Design Basis: Atlas AS7-D (9,626,000 C-bills)
Weight Displacement: 100 tons (5,466,666 C-bills)
Equipment                           Mass
Internal Structure:                        10
Engine:            200 ICE            17
   Walking MP:         2
   Running MP:         3
Power Amplifiers:                        .5
Heat Sinks:            17               17
Gyro:                              2
Cockpit:                           3
Armor Factor:            304               19
Weapons and Ammo:   Location      Critical
AC/20             Right Torso      10         14
Ammo (AC/20) 10      Right Torso      2         2
LRM 20         Left Torso      5         10
Ammo (LRM) 12      Left Torso      2         2
Medium Laser         Right Arm      1         1
Medium Laser         Left Arm      1         1
Medium Laser         Center Torso      1         1
Small Laser         Center Torso      1         .5

Jupiter
Design Basis: Zeus
Weight Displacement: 80 tons
Equipment                           Mass
Internal Structure:                        8
Engine:            240 ICE            23
   Walking MP:         3
   Running MP:         5
Power Amplifiers:                        .5
Heat Sinks:            9               9
Gyro:                              3
Cockpit:                           3
Armor Factor:            184               11.5
Weapons and Ammo:   Location      Critical
Large Laser         Left Torso      2         5
LRM 15         Right Arm      3         7
Ammo (LRM) 8      Right Torso      1         1
AC/5            Left Arm      4         8
Ammo (AC) 20      Left Arm      8         1


So what do you think? Would such a project be worth it? And if so for whom? A Periphery nation? The Federated Commonwealth in response to the Clan invasion? The Terran Republic in our BTSD setting? Someone else? Let me know!
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Blacknova

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2010, 11:06:54 PM »

Likley those out on the deep fringe would be the users of such machines.  I can't really see the IS building ICE Mechs, not unless the 3rd War went the way of the first two.
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lrose

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2010, 06:31:08 AM »

I agree with Black Nova- if you can build mechs, then you are going to build mechs- on the other hand I could see a lot of rebels converting work mechs to "battlemechs"
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Takiro

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2010, 07:24:25 PM »

Well let me say the Clans are automatically eliminated from the ICE Mech discussion as they are philosophically opposed to such developments and I would not argue the point.

I was batting the idea around for the Federated Commonwealth in my Clarion Call novel/universe. Essentially building up new industries on many more worlds adding to the strength of the AFFC or more aptly their Planetary Militias. However I'm inclined to agree with both Irose and Blacknova. Their energies could be directed elsewhere with more worthwhile returns.

For the same reasons the Terran Republic ala BTSD doesn't really work either. However might the Rim Protectorate in the same setting be an ideal place for ICE Mechs. With much of their advanced infrastructure displaced by Project Phoenix could low tech solutions be the answer? How about the Marian Hegemony say in the 3050s? Their lack of advanced industry (shortage of fusion engines) may make them another ideal candidate for these machines. It seems like the Periphery is probably the best spot for these backward innovations.
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Blacknova

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2010, 11:08:26 PM »

One other thing I meant to mention was the logistical tail this would add to the Mech units.  The versitility of a SFE Mech and its endurance are far superior to that of an ICE unit.  There is also the life time cost to consider.  The ICE fule would eventually top the life price of the SFE if the machine hung around for a while, so long term costs would be another issue to consider.
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Gabriel

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2010, 12:15:55 AM »

Hi to all. Nueva Castile and the Chainelane Isles would benefit the most from such mechs.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2010, 03:15:13 PM »

Black Nova has got a good point: what logistics would be needed to keep these 'Mechs operative?
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2010, 03:32:10 PM »

I would imagine that the logistics would be much less sophisticated than fusion engines. However the maintenance needs might be higher on these low tech motors. It is interesting to think about. I wonder why no fuel tank or usage was ever determined for these Mechs.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2010, 03:03:42 AM »

I would imagine that the logistics would be much less sophisticated than fusion engines. However the maintenance needs might be higher on these low tech motors. It is interesting to think about. I wonder why no fuel tank or usage was ever determined for these Mechs.

Not sure about that since fusion works forever whereas ICE engines need fuel that you need to find.
For maintenance, I think an ICE engine is easier to maintain than a fusion one.
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2020, 02:51:21 PM »

Good topics don't fade away, they just come back a decade later! Work on Project Hercules which began with a certain someone's Project 3000 has inspired me. Comments and concepts are welcomed!

Pilum
Design Basis: Javelin
Weight Displacement: 30 tons ( C-bills)
Equipment                           Mass
Internal Structure:                        3
Engine:            90 ICE               6
   Walking MP:         3
   Running MP:         5
Power Amplifiers:                        0
Heat Sinks:            6               6
Gyro:                              1
Cockpit:                           3
Armor Factor:            96               6
Weapons and Ammo:   Location      Critical
LRM-5         Right Torso      1         2
LRM-5         Left Torso      1         2
Ammo (LRM) 24      Right Torso      1         1

Gnat
Design Basis: Locust
Weight Displacement: 20 tons ( C-bills)
Equipment                           Mass
Internal Structure:                        2
Engine:            100 ICE            6
   Walking MP:         5
   Running MP:         8
Power Amplifiers:                        0
Heat Sinks:            2               2
Gyro:                              1
Cockpit:                           3
Armor Factor:            64               4
Weapons and Ammo:   Location      Critical
Machine Gun         Right Arm      1         .5
Machine Gun         Left Arm      1         .5
Machine Gun         Center Torso      1         .5
Ammo (Machine Guns) 100    Center Torso      1         .5

Initial research showed that ICE equipped BattleMechs would be slower than their Fusion equipped brethren but as overall design mass dropped the impact became more drastic. With power plants weighing double their high-tech cousins and less tonnage for their incorporation available speeds were further reduced. Heat generated by movement and weapon fire also became more problematic to resolve given that these primitive war machines lacked integral heat sinks. This consumed even more space and obstructed room previously allocated for weaponry.

Attempts to engineer lower tech versions of the Locust (dubbed the Gnat) and the Javelin (named the Pilum by Marian designers) ran headlong into these obstacles. Engineers soon found that even their presumed minus one method in regards to overall speed of ICE Mechs was widely optimistic when it came to Light BattleMechs. Further reductions became apparent if either design was to become even practical on the battlefield. Ultimately this required the use of a 90 and 100 rated Internal Combustion Engine on both machines which had the extra benefit of reducing gyro size.

The Gnat thankfully maintained some speed and was able to utilize Machine Guns in order to compose its arsenal which mitigated heat buildup. While much shorter ranged than the LCT-1V and only able to match its cruising speed at maximum output it is a menacing presence to infantry on the battlefield. It also matches the armor protection of its forebearer which is near maximum for its chassis size. Being able to use identical time-tested components from the Locust also eased production which was surprisingly swift. The final result was a cheap war machine that could rapidly

Things did not go as smoothly on the Pilum however which required several redesigns thanks in large part to the engine and its weapons. Speed as a result dropped to half and without jump jets designers became extremely concerned the entire concept could work at all. Even more troubling was the heat output of the SRMs used by the Javelin which would require more heat sinks that threatened to put the thirty-ton Mech overweight. It was discovered that switching to LRMs was less taxing on the design and made sense given its low speed.

The Gnat and the Pilum work well in concert with each other as they are often deployed together. The Pilum will shower opposition with LRM with a Gnat racing within its minimum range to finish off any close quarters’ competition.
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2020, 02:50:51 PM »

Jump Jets can not be mounted on ICE equipped ‘Mechs.

What about the Mechanical Jump Booster?
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2020, 03:14:00 PM »

Mechanical Jump Booster - BattleTechWiki
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mechanical_Jump_Booster

Not available at this time
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Ice Hellion

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2020, 04:41:57 PM »

Mechanical Jump Booster - BattleTechWiki
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mechanical_Jump_Booster

Not available at this time

I know but you are in an AU :P
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"In turn they tested each Clan namesake
in trial against the Ice Hellion's mettle.
Each chased the Ice Hellion, hunting it down.
All failed to match the predator's speed and grace.
Khan Cage smiled and said, "And that is how we shall be."

The Remembrance (Clan Ice Hellion) Passage 5, Verse 3, Lines 1 - 5

Takiro

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2020, 05:04:22 PM »

Yes it is but they seem too advanced for the moment and given the huge weight of ICE power plants could unbalance the whole thing. Folks could simply minimize the engine size and max their jump boosters for a leaping good time.
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David CGB

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Re: Ice Project (ICE Mechs)
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2020, 07:55:51 PM »

both the Gnat and the Pilum, would make great lances for planets that need protection but could not handle or get regular mechs, I could see numbers of these in the Outback of the Federated Suns!!!
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