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Author Topic: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine  (Read 31623 times)

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Coriendal

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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2013, 05:02:41 PM »

To start a real discussion I would suggest the following as part of a new Ares Convention.

Use of nuclear weapons on a planetary target.
Use of Chemical or biological weapons on any target.
Using warships to bombard a civilian target on a planet.  To be specific, a target with no command and control or military units present.

Feel free to add or comment.

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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2013, 05:28:31 PM »

There are no interstellar laws.  If you all want to agree to some go ahead, but I doubt everyone will sign on.
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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2013, 05:39:55 PM »

The original Ares Convention Articles before they were rescinded in 2579 by the Star League

Article I forbade the use of nuclear weapons against all civilian targets and planets and military targets within 75,000 kilometers of a planet.
       â€”Amend to use of nuclear weapons within a planetary atmosphere
Article II forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not near populated areas.
       â€”Amend to forbid the use of orbital bombardment on planets with no clear military, command or communication value.
Article III established the white flag with adorned red S as universal symbol of surrender and truce, which all signatories agreed to abide by.
Article IV established the right of safe passage under a sign of truce and conditions for its loss.
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities—unless a military target was within the city—and against civilian targets.
Article VI forbade research, development, and use of biological and chemical weapons.


Appendices

Appendix A comprised of the definition of combat forces, ranging from definitions of infantry to aerospace forces. Since the Conventions were supposed to be followed by uniformed combatants, extensive definitions of uniforms were also part of this section.

Appendix B defined what a valid military target during warfare was.

Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Notable for their ridgy.

       â€”Suggest Amending to include specific definitions for pirates, irregular forces, etc.

Appendix E clarified the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendered forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory.

Appendices F through H defined the nature of military force and hostile action. Aside from seeking to limit open conflicts, these appendices introduced the idea of conducting proxy battles via sports matches, simulation games, or duels.


Appendices I through L defined weapons of mass destruction. The restrictions for their use were so strict that not even tear gas could be used against foreign troops.
       â€”Amend to remove non-lethal forms of chemical weapons.

Appendices M through O defined boards of inquiry and investigative commissions for violations of the Ares Conventions. In practice, this should be by Starlight.
       â€”Amend to create an investigative branch of StarLight for the sole purpose of reporting violations back to this board for voting purposes.

Appendix R defined the allowable uses of espionage and intelligence operations. Unlike the rest of the Conventions, this appendix was far less restrictive and only banned outright assassination.

Appendix X
       â€”Add interdiction to the Appendix as an allowable punishment for violation of this convention by adhering board members' nations.

 




« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 05:42:53 PM by Knightmare »
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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2013, 05:46:56 PM »

As long as we avoid recreating the Star League, I can live with that.
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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2013, 06:15:54 PM »

(OOC-This isn't PeaceTech.)
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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2013, 06:18:03 PM »

As long as we avoid recreating the Star League, I can live with that.

You already have 20 factions who wish to do that in their own way...

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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2013, 06:26:23 PM »

The Star League is for mamas boys and wannabe white hats.
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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2013, 02:21:09 AM »

The original Ares Convention Articles before they were rescinded in 2579 by the Star League

Article I forbade the use of nuclear weapons against all civilian targets and planets and military targets within 75,000 kilometers of a planet.
       â€”Amend to use of nuclear weapons within a planetary atmosphere
Agreed.

Article II forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not near populated areas.
       â€”Amend to forbid the use of orbital bombardment on planets with no clear military, command or communication value.
There would need to be clarification of that. I can see some loopholes a warship could jump through. Alternatively a blanket-ban on orbital bombardment although I suspect that wouldn't be acceptable to everyone.

Article III established the white flag with adorned red S as universal symbol of surrender and truce, which all signatories agreed to abide by.
Article IV established the right of safe passage under a sign of truce and conditions for its loss.
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities—unless a military target was within the city—and against civilian targets.
Article VI forbade research, development, and use of biological and chemical weapons.
Agreed.

I'd also suggest a specific statement that signatories will also consider all the above articles to apply in their actions towards non-signatories except in retaliation for actions that would contravene them. I believe that non-signatories were considered fair game under the originals: let's try to take the moral high ground on this.

Appendices

Appendix A comprised of the definition of combat forces, ranging from definitions of infantry to aerospace forces. Since the Conventions were supposed to be followed by uniformed combatants, extensive definitions of uniforms were also part of this section.

Appendix B defined what a valid military target during warfare was.

Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Notable for their ridgy.

       â€”Suggest Amending to include specific definitions for pirates, irregular forces, etc.
How do you propose to define them?

Appendix E clarified the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendered forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory.

Appendices F through H defined the nature of military force and hostile action. Aside from seeking to limit open conflicts, these appendices introduced the idea of conducting proxy battles via sports matches, simulation games, or duels.


Appendices I through L defined weapons of mass destruction. The restrictions for their use were so strict that not even tear gas could be used against foreign troops.
       â€”Amend to remove non-lethal forms of chemical weapons.
I'm not clear why this is desirable. Reasons?

Appendices M through O defined boards of inquiry and investigative commissions for violations of the Ares Conventions. In practice, this should be by Starlight.
       â€”Amend to create an investigative branch of StarLight for the sole purpose of reporting violations back to this board for voting purposes.

Appendix R defined the allowable uses of espionage and intelligence operations. Unlike the rest of the Conventions, this appendix was far less restrictive and only banned outright assassination.

Appendix X
       â€”Add interdiction to the Appendix as an allowable punishment for violation of this convention by adhering board members' nations.
Given that the original Conventions effectively had no enforcement, some improvement would be in order.

Being more specific, I recommend that following the presentation of sufficient evidence and a simple majority vote (not 2/3rds) excluding the accused, any signatory who breaks the Conventions towards another signatory receive a 6 month Interdiction, extendable if such actions continue.
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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2013, 07:55:48 AM »

Article II forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not near populated areas.
       â€”Amend to forbid the use of orbital bombardment on planets with no clear military, command or communication value.
There would need to be clarification of that. I can see some loopholes a warship could jump through. Alternatively a blanket-ban on orbital bombardment although I suspect that wouldn't be acceptable to everyone.

        —Forbid the use of orbital bombardment on planets that do not have the presence of line-units (i.e. militia only), fortifications, military-industry or do not provide C3 points.

In-game this would translate into being able to bombard planets with line-units, GF factories, fortifications and capitals. Implementation could still slow an assault down—which I believe is a key element of its in-game application—by forcing an attacker to use conventional line units against planets with only militias. This doesn't mean everyone will use orbital bombardment, but it certainly defines its in-game usage.

Article III established the white flag with adorned red S as universal symbol of surrender and truce, which all signatories agreed to abide by.
Article IV established the right of safe passage under a sign of truce and conditions for its loss.
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities—unless a military target was within the city—and against civilian targets.
Article VI forbade research, development, and use of biological and chemical weapons.
Agreed.

I'd also suggest a specific statement that signatories will also consider all the above articles to apply in their actions towards non-signatories except in retaliation for actions that would contravene them. I believe that non-signatories were considered fair game under the originals: let's try to take the moral high ground on this.

Adding a "won't do it first" for signatories could be a good idea (read how this could work below.) Opting out is essentially a one-time pass for non-signatories. If they opt out—which is their right—signatories are under no compulsion to follow the Conventions when prosecuting a war against them over an interdiction.

In-game, Article V is the only tricky because of the way combat is resolved, but if a defender retreated—well, it's a military target—problem solved.

Appendices
Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Notable for their ridgy.[/color]
       â€”Suggest Amending to include specific definitions for pirates, irregular forces, etc.
How do you propose to define them?

Good question. We could always determine pirates by the color of their tag on our maps.

Appendices I through L defined weapons of mass destruction. The restrictions for their use were so strict that not even tear gas could be used against foreign troops.
       â€”Amend to remove non-lethal forms of chemical weapons.
I'm not clear why this is desirable. Reasons?

Generally for RP purposes. The ban on tear-gas, etc., seems excessive and it could create situations when lethal force is applied first over non-lethal force for lack of options. I'd simply limit the ban on chemical weapons to lethal varieties.

Appendix X
       â€”Add interdiction to the Appendix as an allowable punishment for violation of this convention by adhering board members' nations.
Given that the original Conventions effectively had no enforcement, some improvement would be in order.

Being more specific, I recommend that following the presentation of sufficient evidence and a simple majority vote (not 2/3rds) excluding the accused, any signatory who breaks the Conventions towards another signatory receive a 6 month Interdiction, extendable if such actions continue.

Fair enough, but there should be a distinction between signatories and non-signatories. Signatories have elected to follow these rules, so a majority vote to punish violations is fair—especially if Starlight (the GM) is providing the accusations and evidence. Not one of us. 

As for non-signatories...that's kind of a gray area for me. I think non-signatories would be subject to the traditional 2/3rds vote for interdiction if no signatory has violated the Ares Conventions in response to their actions.

So signatory players have two choices when dealing with a non-signatory violating "their" Conventions:

1.) Try to interdict the non-signatory through a traditional 2/3rds vote.
2.) Rescind the Conventions against the non-signatory and go to town on their own.

The truth is, application of these Conventions and their punishment should be somewhat voluntary. For one, this isn't social engineering-tech and two, the only difference between canon and the KU is our ability to enforce an interdiction. (I always loved the way the Taurian Concordat never signed.) Since that part of Pandora's box has been opened, I still like the idea of some self-determination for those players that really want to "play their game." So those players/nations that decide they won't go along with the conventions should suffer the punishment of being on the receiving end of running the risk of an interdiction, or no protection at all.

I really don't like the idea of an interdiction being used solely for political means with majority rule. If this is voted into the Conventions, I may just give away HPG tech to negate interdiction in its entirety. That would pull the teeth right from this tiger.



« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 08:12:56 AM by Knightmare »
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Coriendal

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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2013, 08:10:29 AM »

Being more specific, I recommend that following the presentation of sufficient evidence and a simple majority vote (not 2/3rds) excluding the accused, any signatory who breaks the Conventions towards another signatory receive a 6 month Interdiction, extendable if such actions continue.

Like the UN the accused should get a vote no matter what.  No one has veto powers like the winners of WWII do.  Getting a majority vote should not be that hard, even with the accused voting if the evidence is really good.
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panzerfaust150

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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2013, 12:12:54 PM »

The original Ares Convention Articles before they were rescinded in 2579 by the Star League

Quote
Article I forbade the use of nuclear weapons against all civilian targets and planets and military targets within 75,000 kilometers of a planet.
       â€”Amend to use of nuclear weapons within a planetary atmosphere
The Lyran Commonwealth agrees but wishes to add "all weapons of mass destruction, to include: Biological, Lethal Chemical, and exotic weapons capable of destruction over a wide area as well as inflicting catastrophic damage to property and massive loss of life over a short period of time." (ie: Asteroids)

Quote
Article II forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not near populated areas.
       â€”Amend to forbid the use of orbital bombardment on planets with no clear military, command or communication value.
The Lyran Commonwealth agrees, but would state that there be a clear definition of what "military value" means. Does a militia unit defending a factory by it's lonesome warrant an orbital bombardment because it's taking too long to take the world? The Lyran Commonwealth states no. Furthermore, regardless of the outcome of these negotiations, the Lyran Commonwealth would remind everyone that it has held to a policy of no first use of orbital bombardment since the 4th War, and will continue such a policy even under the terms of this treaty. If the treaty were to be signed, we would insist on such a policy to be adhered to by all treaty signatories.

Quote
Article III established the white flag with adorned red S as universal symbol of surrender and truce, which all signatories agreed to abide by.
Article IV established the right of safe passage under a sign of truce and conditions for its loss.
The Lyran Commonwealth agrees to these obviously humanitarian gestures without comment.
Quote
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities—unless a military target was within the city—and against civilian targets.
There are perfectly good military reasons to defend cities, and while the loss of life is abhorrent, the fact remains it is a valid military practice, I think rules governing sieges and movement of civil populations in cities under attack might be more appropriate.
Quote
Article VI forbade research, development, and use of biological and chemical weapons.
Agreed without further comment. Such weapons are no better than weapons of terror and have little to no military use.


Appendices

Quote
Appendix A comprised of the definition of combat forces, ranging from definitions of infantry to aerospace forces. Since the Conventions were supposed to be followed by uniformed combatants, extensive definitions of uniforms were also part of this section.
The Lyran Commonwealth agrees that partisan and guerilla forces should come under such definitions and be clearly defined from terrorist groups, and that such forces should have all POW protections should they be captublue. A good guide might be the Third Geneva Protocols.

Quote
Appendix B defined what a valid military target during warfare was.
The Lyran Commonwealth would be happy to participate in these discussions.

Quote
Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Notable for their ridgy.
       â€”Suggest Amending to include specific definitions for pirates, irregular forces, etc.
I think with piracy, it may be a case of if a irregular force does not adhere to the definitions of Appendix A, then it is clearly a pirate force and may be dealt with accordingly.

Quote
Appendix E clarified the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendeblue forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory.
The Lyran Commonwealth would be happy to participate in these discussions, as we did our best to ensure proper treatment of prisoners of war during both the Skye Rebellion and the 4th War.

Quote
Appendices F through H defined the nature of military force and hostile action. Aside from seeking to limit open conflicts, these appendices introduced the idea of conducting proxy battles via sports matches, simulation games, or duels.
This would help to prevent needless loss of life in "honor of the flag" situations.

Quote
Appendices I through L defined weapons of mass destruction. The restrictions for their use were so strict that not even tear gas could be used against foreign troops.
       â€”Amend to remove non-lethal forms of chemical weapons.
There is no state in the Inner Sphere who would not agree with this, but I think it best that Tear Gas and other riot control agents be transferred to police and paramilitary units.

Quote
Appendices M through O defined boards of inquiry and investigative commissions for violations of the Ares Conventions. In practice, this should be by Starlight.
       â€”Amend to create an investigative branch of StarLight for the sole purpose of reporting violations back to this board for voting purposes.
I support the Federated Suns and Cappellan Confederations views on this matter.

Quote
Appendix R defined the allowable uses of espionage and intelligence operations. Unlike the rest of the Conventions, this appendix was far less restrictive and only banned outright assassination.
The Lyran Commonwealth agrees with the ban on assassination, it does little more than backfire on the person(s) responsible. Other than Snow Fire (which admittedly, was a response to the death of a entire unit of Commonwealth soldiers....), but in general, assassinations do little other than start wars, not stop them.

Quote
Appendix X
       â€”Add interdiction to the Appendix as an allowable punishment for violation of this convention by adhering board members' nations.
The Commonwealth would agree in principle, but would also agree with lesser punishments for lesser crimes, but I think a 2/3rds vote should be required for interdictions. It should be reserved for grave matters and as such, should be treated with the respect required.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 12:17:37 PM by panzerfaust150 »
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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2013, 01:10:50 PM »

In the interest of keeping the new Ares Conventions as clear as possible, here's what we have so far...


Articles


Article I:
Forbids the use of all weapons of mass destruction, to include: Nuclear, Biological, Lethal Chemical, and exotic weapons (i.e. Asteroids)—but not including orbital bombardment by conventional capital-grade weapons—capable of destruction over a wide area as well as inflicting catastrophic damage to property, a planetary environment and massive loss of life over a short period of time within a planetary atmosphere.

Article II:
Forbids the use of orbital bombardment except against vital military targets not near populated areas. Military targets include known military formations, weapons factories, military shipyards and repair facilities, fortifications, and command and control centers (i.e. regional, provincial and national capitals that provide C3 points) Use of orbital bombardment against worlds defended only by militia with no other strategic value is prohibited.
       
Article III: Establishes the white flag with adorned red S as universal symbol of surrender and truce, which all signatories agreed to abide by.

Article IV: Establishes the right of safe passage under a sign of truce and conditions for its loss (i.e. breaking a truce, false flag, etc.)

Article V: Explicitly disavows combat in cities—unless a military target is within or knowingly enters a city—and against civilian targets. Combatants will endeavor to provide the safe passage for civilians in any theater of combat if possible.

Article VI: Forbids the research, development, and use of biological and lethal chemical weapons. Non-lethal chemical weapons are not under the purview of these conventions.

Article VII:
Establishes that signatories of these conventions will adhere to them in combat against other signatories. Violations of the conventions by signatories is covered in Appendix X, XI, and XII.
 

Appendices


Appendix A: defines combat forces, as infantry, conventional armor, aerospace fighters, combat DropShips, combat JumpShips and WarShips. All uniformed and non-uniformed combatants must adhere to the accords to benefit from their protection. Deviation will result in a direct violation.

Appendix B:
Targets of military value include uniformed military units, military industry and command & control centers.

Appendices C and D: Defines civilian assets as civilian industries (i.e. JumpShip Yards) and enclaves. Civilians are defined by the Third Geneva Protocols.

Appendix E:
Defines the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendered forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory. (Can be determined at a later date for RP purposes.)

Appendices F through H:
defined the nature of military force and hostile action. Aside from seeking to limit open conflicts, these appendices introduced the idea of conducting proxy battles via sports matches, simulation games, or duels. (Can be defined for RP purposes at a later date.)

Appendices I through K: Defines a Sphere-wide board of inquiry and investigative commission for violations of the Ares Conventions to be organized and led by Starlight Ltd. They maintain the sole responsibility of recording and reporting violations of the Ares Conventions to the Board of Directors.

Appendix L: Defines the allowable uses of espionage and intelligence operations, including assassination.*

Appendix M:
Defines the use of Interdiction as punishment for violation of the Ares Conventions. See Appendix X, XI and XII.

Appendix N: Defines non-signatories of the Ares Convention and violations of the conventions by non-signatories. See Appendix XIII.


Appendix X: Violations of the Ares Convention.

        —XI: Determining violations of the Ares Convention remains the purview of StarLight Ltd. StarLight Ltd. is the only accountable agency able to provide evidence of any and all violations to the Board of Directors. Ultimate determination of a violation will be made by the Board of Directors.
        —XII: Signatories charged with violating the accords will face an interdiction vote by the Board of Directors, with the majority voting—including the charged—for interdiction in blocks of six months, with a minimum of one pending a convicting vote for interdiction. Every six months the Board of Directors will vote to maintain the interdiction, but only if violations of the conventions have taken place during the original interdiction period.
        —XIII: Non-signatories of the Ares Conventions include any member of the Human Sphere who do not sign the accords.
          —XIIIa: Signatories shall adhere to the Conventions in combat against Non-Signatories until the accords are violated by the non-signatory faction.
          —XIIIb: In the event that a non-signatory violates the conventions the affected signatory have the option to pursue one of two distinct rights:
                    —Right I: Void the use of the Ares Conventions against the violating non-signatory until the cessation of combat
                    —Right II: Call for an interdiction vote against the violating non-signatory but require a 2/3rds vote—including the charged—for passage. Passed interdictions are covered by Appendix XII at the conclusion of the first six months. Signatories calling for an interdiction vote must maintain the Accords regardless of the vote outcome unless a second violation by the original non-signatory occurs.       


Edit: Based on Comments. * Appendix L is currently under consideration.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 06:55:25 AM by Knightmare »
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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2013, 01:26:54 PM »

The Capellan Confederation wishes to stipulate that any nation that moves it's own military units into a city when attacked voids any violation of article V.

The Capellan Confederation also will not agree to remove assassination from it's list of tools.  OOC:  If you could have killed Hitler and his staff in 1943, saving millions of lives would you have "assassinated" him?
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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2013, 03:59:09 PM »

Need to add specific mention of nuclear weapons on planetary targets.  Use of nukes in naval battles permitted.
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Re: Interdiction of the Draconis Combine
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2013, 06:31:23 PM »

Need to add specific mention of nuclear weapons on planetary targets.  Use of nukes in naval battles permitted.

That's why I wrote planetary atmosphere. Anything outside of the atmosphere is fair game since it isn't covered.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 06:40:35 PM by Knightmare »
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