OBT Forum

His fluff is always lovely Dragon Cat. 

Now masterarminas has jumped the gun by a month but I would love to talk about this subject. This was to be the final and most controversial section of the Quicksilver Trails. Before we proceed I want to get your thoughts.

!!!!!!!!PLEASE NO FURTHER SUBMISSIONS YET!!!!!!!!!!

Following the OmniFighter phase a total of 21 Primary Manufacturing slots (see below) will remain for the Clans. If your wondering 51 of these major manufacturing sites have been set up by Quicksilver to maximize the output of OmniMechs for the Clan war effort while 21 are reserved for OmniFighters (72 total). This will not include numerous Secondary Facilities that will also continue to crank out a handful of lesser designs for use as well. The fate of the remaining 21 sites is what we have to decide on.

Available Production Slots (21)
Blood Spirit [1]
Burrock [ 0 ]
Cloud Cobra [1]
Coyote [3]
Diamond Shark [2]
Fire Mandrill [1]
Ghost Bear [1]
Goliath Scorpion [2]
Hell's Horses [3]
Ice Hellion [1]
Jade Falcon [ 0 ]
Nova Cat [2]
Smoke Jaguar [ 0 ]
Snow Raven [ 0 ]
Star Adder [2]
Steel Viper [1]
Wolf [1]

Now to each Clan's attitude on Vehicles which I have tried to compile into a list below. I figure Hell's Horses and Blood Spirit will each push for the creation of Combat OmniVehicle Lines. Both of their toumans utilize them in front line units and as such would want to develop them. However, Jade Falcon is gonna obviously be the most opposed to this waste of resources as Vehicles are non-combatant support units. They will be backed by Smoke Jaguar, Burrock, Coyote, and Nova Cat. Coyote (I have plans for them) and Nova Cat who have industrial space left will focus on the production of standard BattleMechs to bolster second line formations that will better bolster second line units. Snow Raven would I think be in favor of an OmniVehicle program backing their Spirit allies but they just do not have any lines to dedicate to it. So you have 3 Clans for and 5 against thus far according to my math.

Combat Vehicle Roles 3052
Blood Spirit – Front Line (1)
Burrock – Solhama (3)
Cloud Cobra – Second Line (2)
Coyote – Solhama (3)
Diamond Shark – Solhama (3)
Fire Mandrill – varies; Kindraa Payne and Kline use Vehicles
Ghost Bear – Second Line (2)
Goliath Scorpion – Solhama (3)
Hell's Horses – Front Line (1)
Ice Hellion – Flurry (3)
Jade Falcon – Non-Combatant (4)
Nova Cat – Solhama (3)
Smoke Jaguar – Solhama (3)
Snow Raven – Second Line (2)
Star Adder – Second Line (2)
Steel Viper – Solhama (3)
Wolf – Solhama (3)

All Clans participating would begin to outfit line units with armor like the Horses and the Spirits although in a smaller (say star per cluster) or lesser (second line?) fashion at least at first. So first off tell me if you agree with these assertions. Second what would these Clans do?

1. Wolf & Star Adder. This is a story line development and probably the biggest surprise to the Clans but I want to hear what you think. There is a growing "alliance" here and I think both Clans would back a venture to create a front line Clan Tank force. Canon wise Wolf is led by Natasha and Phelan who have seen the effectiveness of Vehicles in the InnerSphere. Plus the Adders do have a healthy respect for these units even though I still question if they see second line or solhama service with them at this time. Also drakensis sort of knows where I am going with Virgilia Truscott which I am trying to incorporate as best as possible into my storyline. Anywho I did plan for both Clans to participate with at least 1 Vehicle line a piece. What do you think?

2. Cloud Cobra. They do use Vehicles to augment their touman and they are present in large numbers in their second line forces. The big draw back is their resource situation which is poor and their aerospace preference. Would they go with a second line fighter for their remaining line or how about an attack helicopter?? They are allies of the Star Adders...

3. Diamond Shark. This is a favorite Clan of mine which will be ditching Ian Hawker soon enough but would they participate in this endeavor? They really do not use Vehicles outside of Solhama units and I could easily see them choosing 2 standard BattleMechs to produce. Would it be profitable to designate 1 line for an OmniVehicle??

4. Fire Mandrill. This is a tale of many Kindraa with most not using Vehicles outside of Solhama units. Kindraa Payne and Kline do however use Vehicles and with Payne's lack of Elementals I have to wonder do certain combat vehicles still see front line service with conventional infantry? Plus Kindraa Payne does get along with Hell's Horses.... Does their 1 line go BattleMech or OmniVehicle? At best their Khans split on a vote for and against in the Council.

5. Ghost Bear. While they do use Vehicles in Second Line units they are perhaps along with Diamond Shark and Steel Viper the two hardest sells. A front line OmniVehicle? Hmm.... The Bears are a conservative lot plus they may not care for this Hell's Horses led effort. What do you think?

6. Goliath Scorpion. Oh masterarminas, as our leading Scorpion enthusiast what do you think? Personally I do not see the Scorpions as anything but Mechwarriors and Aerospace Pilots. Outside Solhama units I can not find any Vehicles. So would they back such a proposal? Would they make an OmniVehicle? They certainly think outside the box.

7. Ice Hellion. After the Hellions Fury campaign you have really seen the growth of Flurry units to protect their far flung holdings. A fast OmniVehicle (HoverTank) would help augment their thin force strength quickly and perhaps they would even authorize Second Trails of Position for such positions.

8. Steel Viper. Yup they use a large body of trueborn conventional infantry would they want an OmniVehicle though? Outside of Solhama units I really can not find any Vehicles. That being said a quick look at Vehicle fluff has them deploying the Asshur Artillery Spotter, Donar Assault Helicopter, Ku Wheeled Assault Tank, and the Oro Heavy Tank. This is possibly the most mentioned Vehicle Clan in the TRO3060.

So what do you think??

The Revival Trials PDF puts the Nova Cats Touman along the lines as traditional as the Jade Falcons although they are less strict with tradition and more willing to adapt.

That said I still don't think the Nova Cats would bother with an OmniVehicle pre-Abjuration 

Maybe, Takiro . . . in the future.  Not in 3052.  Talking about the Scorpions accepting vehicles.  One thought that I had was that when the Scorpions absorbed the remnants of the ELH (a combined arms force, need I not remind you) might be that the absorption could be the trigger to make some Scorpions question the validity of Clan conventional wisdom as regards vehicles.  Something like that could happen sooner, but only if the Scorpions (and their rank-and-file, not just the leadership) were just taken aback by the incredible performance of a front-line Clan force using vehicles to win against all odds and predictions.

Maybe.

Even so, I think that the Scorpions would approach it slow . . . maybe replace on Assault Trinary (2 'Mech Stars/1 Elemental Star) in a few Clusters with an . . . oh, let's call it an Armored Shock Trinary of 2 'Mech Stars and a Combat Vehicle Star.  10 OmniMechs and 10 OmniVehicles, especially if paired together at common speeds, using Clan tech and weapons to the fullest (good, solid designs that aren't as much WTF as canon Clan vehicles) would be a BEAR for another to fight.

Which hasn't really been reflected well in the author's treatment of the Horses.  I mean, on paper, fighting a Horse Cluster is simply murder (especially since two tanks are a single point and can therefore gang up on a single opponent . . . just like the 5 Elementals of a point).  But it isn't written that way.

I mean, look at the Nike above.  Let's say the Horses field a mixed Nova Trinary with two OmniMech/Elemental Novas and a Star of those 6/9/0 light tanks.  You're fighting 10 OmniMechs, 50 Elementals (75 if you make the vehicle Star a Nova as well!), and 10 Combat Vehicles . . . with maybe six Stars of your own (if you haven't lowered your bid).  Let's say 15 Omnimechs and 75 Elementals.

Can you win?  Yeah, it depends a lot on the player's and luck, but those light tanks pack a lot of firepower for their BV (and cost).   It all comes down to can your 'Mechs take out twice their number in vehicles before suffering losses of their own?  With each of the 'Mechs being the target of two tanks at a time?

And against a dezgra opponent?  Those ten tanks, if the Prime Configuration, are boasting ten Large Pulse Lasers and fifty LRM tubes, plus ECM.  Not a threat that you can just ignore because of . . . they're only vehicles.

Just some thoughts.

MA

Great thoughts guys! Overall I do agree that most Clans would not want to participate at this time (3052) in such a radically new concept. I can easily task BattleMech or Aerospace Fighter production for most. The designs are there. Even if these Clans do not want to produce OmniVehicles would they vote to allow others to include them in Quicksilver? The Crusaders would insist on killing it. Still love to hear from more people on this. 

CUrrently we already have the Badger, Bandit and Epona Omnivehicles.  two hover tanks and an IFV.... there certianly could be some gaps filled, but I do not think tonnage should be as much of a concern as it is role types.  yes Omni tech allows a unit to fulfill a variety of roles, but there is still a primary purpose.  arre you a main combatant, a fire support vehicle, are you a command, control, communications outfit,  etc etc.

Thanks for chiming in Abele and JP! You are right Abele, if not for some handwavium here I do not think this motion would come close to passing.

Currently we already have the Badger, Bandit and Epona Omnivehicles.

I really never understood the Badger and Bandit being "Clan" vehicles. Yeah they are Wolf Dragoon vehicles and always have been but name wise they do not fit into Clan Vehicles or do they have another designation that we just do not know about. Were they Wolf prototypes that never went to production? That seems unlikely as they are deployed by the Clans.

Do not forget we also have two other future canon designs from TRO 3067. If we go ahead with Vehicles should we place the Hephaestus Scout Tank (25 tons, Hover, Hell’s Horses, 6 ton pod space) and the Heimdall Ground Monitor Tank (95 tons, Wolf, 21 tons pod space) into production?

Of the Clans I'd think the Blood Spirits, Diamond Sharks, (one of the) Fire Mandrills, Hells Horses, Star Adders and Wolves would be likely to vote in favour of an omnivehicle or two. The Burrocks (solely because the Spirits said yes), Coyotes, (the other) Fire Mandrills, Goliath Scorpions, Jade Falcons, Nova Cats and Steel Vipers would likely be strongly opposed (amusingly it cuts across the Warden-Crusader split). 11 Khans vs 13 Khans, with those of the Burrocks, Cloud Cobras, Coyotes (very 'Mech focused), Ghost Bears , Ice Hellions, Snow Ravens and Steel Vipers in the middle ground.

Call it 15 for and 19 against maybe?

So I'd say the Grand Council will probably vote against but not by such a huge margin as to make a Trial of Refusal impossible.

Mostly I agree with you drakensis. I think Wolf and Diamond Shark are the most out of character. I do not think they would have voted for OmniVehicles if not for alterations. Each would have in character reasons for like the Sharks need to rebuild quickly from Tukayyid and the promising market for Clan vehicles given the new Occupation Zone. Each Clan would dedicate 1 production line for a new design.

Star Adder is somewhat of a change but they would see the possible military applications of OmniVehicles so they are a yes and will dedicate a production line to such a design.

Hell's Horses and Blood Spirit are the unaltered core of armor advocates. I have the Horses down for 2 new OmniVehicles and the Spirits 1 if we get that far.

Ice Hellion I have added to the yes vote for rapid growth in their touman especially after some early successes by the Flurries. They will be participating in the design of a fast OmniVehicle.

Fire Mandrill splits their votes because that is what they do. Seriously there would be political support from one of the Khans but because of Kindraa rivalry no design.

Then you have political gamesmanship from the Cloud Cobras and Snow Ravens. Both Clans owe some favors for support during the Aerospace Trails. Allies such as Blood Spirit (Snow Raven) and Star Adder (Cloud Cobras) also make it possible for both to lend their weight to such an effort. However neither wishes to engage in the design process here although the Ravens would likely facilitate necessary trade. So really Cloud Cobra is the only Clan we differ on.

Dead set against this measure would be Jade Falcon (leading the opposition), Smoke Jaguar (waste of resources), Burrock (hates the Spirits), Coyote (too Mech oriented), Nova Cat (no value in vehicles), and Goliath Scorpion (far too traditional at this time). Fire Mandrill (splits), Ghost Bear (hates the Horses but are not wholesale against Vehicle ideas), and Steel Viper (second line duty at best but they may waver).

That would make the vote 17-17! What happens in the event of a Grand Council tie?

I actually have a vehicle for the Coyote that ties in with another design in the aerospace portion of the competition