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Author Topic: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle  (Read 51602 times)

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masterarminas

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2015, 12:32:08 PM »

And don't forget, Tak, these are OmniVehicles.  That means they can carry Elementals on their outer surfaces at NO cost in tonnage or space.  Which, as on the canon Hellbringer would actually improve their armor if hit on their 'attack run to the target'.  :)

And since two vehicles are part of a single point, a vehicle Star could carry and deploy two Stars of Elementals as part of a Trinary.  Fifty Elementals, supported by ten of these fast 'ultra-light' vehicles is something NO ONE can ignore without getting slapped around rather violently.

MA
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Takiro

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2015, 12:48:31 PM »

This is really an interesting development here MA. If we say that Clan (Blood Spirit and Ice Hellion) researchers were intrigued by the possibilities offered by Ultralight Vehicles when developing ideas for Quicksilver OmniVehicles then we could certainly develop a whole new line of thinking.

Blood Spirit is looking for cheap solutions in the first place and is looking for viable Combat Vehicles. Ice Hellion brings their Flurry concept and PackZell mentality to the table. Plus the Clans gotta love the idea of one Warrior per vehicle. Now if the Smoke Jaguars glean some stuff from early ProtoMech research (which I hate the concept anyway and would love to eliminate in this alternate) this concept is far more practical.

Now can you organize these 15 ton and lighter Ultralights like ProtoMechs? I know Ice Hellion would love to try but even if you go with the Orthodox approach offered by Blood Spirit (is that 2 Vehicles per point still?) you still have a nasty concept.

I am not sure that Elementals could be carried so effortlessly by these Ultralights but I will consider it. Very nice possibilities here folks.
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masterarminas

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2015, 11:34:26 PM »

You want nasty?  Clan conventional are 25 troopers to a point; five points to a Star (125 troops).  A two-ton bay will hold up to fourteen conventional infantry.  So, for a Star of 10 vehicles, each with a two-ton bay, you've got enough room for a Star of conventional infantry.  And those same 15-ton vehicles can each carry a point of Elementals (5 per), without slowing down.

Ten 15-ton VTOLs, 50 Elementals, and 125 conventional infantry.  With each VTOL moving at 8/12 and having six tons of pod-space.  Enough for a Large Pulse Laser, or an ER Large Laser plus two heat sinks, or two ER Medium Lasers and three LRM-5s with a ton of ammo, or . . . you get the idea.

What do you shoot at?  The VTOLs?  Elementals clinging to the outside serve as ablative armor and these things move fast enough to be right on top of you very quickly.  The conventional infantry?  Which can pack a serious punch, even if they are slow-moving and fragile.  The Elementals?  That leaves the grunts and VTOLs free to wreck your day!

Or . . .

The 15-ton hover scout might just replace the Fire Moth as a rapid Elemental deployment platform.  6.5 tons of pod-space ain't nothing to sneeze at; you could mount twin ER Medium Lasers, an SRM-6 with a ton of ammo, and an LRM-5 with a ton of ammo!  Or twin Medium Pulse Lasers, and an SRM-6 with a ton of ammo!  Or . . . you get the idea.  While carrying two Stars of Elementals and probably costing a quarter the amount of a Star of Elemental supported Fire Moths.

MA
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Takiro

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2015, 11:59:15 PM »

Heck the more I think about these Clan Ultralights the more I like them. If you look at the Shamash Reconnaissance Vehicle (11 tons) it pretty much lays out the entire concept. Plus in comparison to ProtoMechs these Ultralights are far more maneuverable, better protected and well armed - that does not even mention the fact they could be modularized (OmniVehicles). No fancy tech problems to really overcome and as such I have to assume they are even cheaper then ProtoMechs. Piloted by a single warrior these nasty little gnats would certainly be more then just a pest on the battlefield.

In regards to our Quicksilver Combat Vehicles I am thinking they might be too small. Thanks to their tiny size and the limited resources needed to construct them these mighty midgets require smaller production facilities akin to Elementals not Mechs, Fighters or Vehicles. Therefore they probably will not be considered for primary manufacturing concerns affected in the Quicksilver Program.

Should I establish a 20 ton floor and start a new effort to develop these Ultralights in another project?
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masterarminas

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2015, 12:52:51 AM »

A 20-ton floor?  I wouldn't.

As to the Shamash . . . it was hobbled by the designers from the beginning.  Look at what it could have been:

Code: [Select]
Shamash (AISHB)

Mass: 15 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Motive Type: Hovercraft
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-C
Production Year: 0
Cost: 638,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 900

Power Plant:  95 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 129.6 km/h
Flanking Speed: 194.4 km/h
Armor:  Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    2  ER Medium Lasers
    1  SRM-6
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                       8 points                1.50
Engine:             Fusion Engine                 95                       4.50
    Cruise MP:  12
    Flank MP:   18
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         1.00
Lift Equipment:                                                            1.50
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV -  38                  2.00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     10       
                                          Left/Right   10/10       
                                                Rear     8         

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 ER Medium Lasers                           FR        10        2         2.00
SRM-6                                        FR        4         1         1.50
@SRM-6 (15)                                  BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      1    Points: 9
12         3       3       0       0      1     0   Structure:  0
Special Abilities: CASE

Four tons heavier, a trifle slower (12/18 vs. 13/20), same armor tonnage, but better protection since we don't have the turret anymore.  And we aren't limited to that 6-hex range of Clan ER Small Lasers.  Sure, four of them packed a punch, but this guy has twin ER Medium Lasers AND an SRM-6!  And a price tag of 638,000 C-Bills.

Yep.  That's right.  We didn't lose a zero or two.  Six hundred and thirty-eight thousand C-Bills. 

MA
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Abele

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2015, 01:30:34 AM »

I don't mean to sound stupid, but here goes. Don't vehicles have to dedicate tonnage to carrying Elementals?
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masterarminas

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2015, 01:38:37 AM »

I don't mean to sound stupid, but here goes. Don't vehicles have to dedicate tonnage to carrying Elementals?

Not OmniVehicles.  Like OmniMechs, OmniVehicles can transport Elementals without any specialized equipment.  If I am remembering correctly.

MA
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drakensis

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2015, 03:46:28 AM »

I'd agree this weight category sounds like something that would be jumped on by the Clans eagerly. Why not make these two of the vehicle categories: a budget version for the smaller clans and a high performance version for the more broadminded of the larger clans.
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Takiro

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2015, 09:48:44 AM »

A 20-ton floor?  I wouldn't.

As to the Shamash . . . it was hobbled by the designers from the beginning.  Look at what it could have been:

I will not establish a floor for these contests then but the Shamash was not designed in the Ultralight concept MA. Bigger is still better. How is a 15 ton micro machine going to be the Clans' Main Battle Tank? Its a new way of thinking that has to be established first similar to the creation of the ProtoMech. Thing is I think Clan Ultralight Vehicles can defeat ProtoMechs. Plus as we talked about there are several other advantages.

One warrior per vehicle making them a separate class onto themselves. They can earn honor unlike larger Vehicles. Their inherent speed and maneuverability. Size making their production insignificant unlike Mechs/Fighters/Larger Vehicles. A simple and cheap concept which fleshed out under current rules would have unique advantages. I think these challenges will establish the class if you will during the contest.

I don't mean to sound stupid, but here goes. Don't vehicles have to dedicate tonnage to carrying Elementals?

I will do some research into this area. As MA indicates making them OmniVehicles may entitle them to a certain amount of free carriage.

Rules wise if we are generating a new concept outside of established norms this would be something that because of size/ weight concerns I would examine.

I'd agree this weight category sounds like something that would be jumped on by the Clans eagerly. Why not make these two of the vehicle categories: a budget version for the smaller clans and a high performance version for the more broadminded of the larger clans.

It does seem to have merit with us looking at it now and perhaps half way through the contest the ilKhan would realize what a potential valuable innovation he has here. However, he is following out a Grand Council that calls for the creation of 7 Combat OmniVehicles for the Clans to bolster their war efforts. This is where I think you will see the contest split with certain folks concentrating on Ultralights and others going the more conventional route. Again because of their small size Ultralight production like Elementals will not fall under the direction of the Quicksilver Program so you could certainly see a schism.
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masterarminas

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2015, 12:00:43 PM »

15-ton Main Battle Tank? 

Of course not!

However, there are other roles where 10-15 ton warmachines can adequately serve.  Just like a Fire Moth or Mist Lynx isn't going to be the main combat 'Mech of a Clan, they are still useful enough to be present within the Touman.

MA
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masterarminas

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2015, 12:07:22 PM »

I will do some research into this area. As MA indicates making them OmniVehicles may entitle them to a certain amount of free carriage.

Rules wise if we are generating a new concept outside of established norms this would be something that because of size/ weight concerns I would examine.

Total Warfare, page 227.  This thread at BattleTech.com (first one I found).  And HERE.  And HERE.

MA
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 12:14:30 PM by masterarminas »
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JPArbiter

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2015, 04:12:30 PM »

let's remember for a moment that "Ultra Light" is perfectly tournament legal for vehicles.  See the Garbiel and Savannah Master.
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Takiro

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2015, 05:07:53 PM »

That is why they are so attractive as an alternative to the ProtoMech for example. Throw in the single warrior per ultralight, impressive maneuverability and capabilities in comparison to size/cost and its an interesting idea for the Clans. What do you think JP?
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JPArbiter

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #58 on: January 05, 2015, 06:23:59 PM »

Protomechs served a different niche then combat vehicles though, the biggest problem is most people do not use them correctly.  there have been some great articles on Protomechs in the CBT Forums lately
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marauder648

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Re: A Proposal for a Quicksilver OmniVehicle
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2018, 06:05:57 AM »

Going off this

Quote
Scout - speed and to a lesser extent electronics matter, firepower and protection really don't. Could be VTOL, Hover or even other motive types.

Light Tank - primarily this fills the role of something cheap that can be deployed in large numbers. I'm not sure any Clan would bother with this.

Fast Attack Tank - fast and hard-hitting, almost always hover. Armour is sacrificed The Epona basically has this covered.

Medium Tank - a balance between speed, firepower and armour. These are typically the backbone of a large armoured force, around the top of the medium and bottom of the heavy weight bracket.

Main Battle Tank - intended to slug it out with battlemechs, these compare well in firepower and protection but have to trade off speed to maintain that parity. Usually operate at the upper end of heavy or the lower end of assault tonnage. Usually tracked but not always.

Assault Tank - very heavily armed and armoured, these are used to assault or guard fixed locations and therefore need very little speed. They tend to turn into pill-boxes quite easily. Tracks are mandatory for survivability.

Weapon Carriers - neither fast nor well protected, these are all about throwing the maximum amount of firepower down-range. Tend to be larger for the needed tonnage.

I've a few thoughts on this.


Scout - The Shamash and Ashur definately fill out this role but because of their specialized nature they would probably be way down the totem pole for any new designs.  Or perhaps because of it, they are.  I don't know if the new ilKhan will 'suggest' that perhaps 2nd line Warriors be used, and if so, shove them in the scouts, their role is to locate the enemy and not fight them, perfect for Solhama or test downs.

Light Tank - We kind of have this with the Ares which is light, armoured at best with baking foil or a tin pan where its thickest, but has a fairly notable slap.  you've also got the Zorya and Mithras although these are far more second line than the Ares.  I can see these being moderately popular, cheap to produce and armed enough to let someone know they've been hit, a nice filler for PGC forces.

Fast Attack Tank - Epona for sure, there's also the later http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hephaestus which would fill this out nicely, especially if you pulled out the infantry bay.

Medium Tank - The Clans are basically lacking a medium striker like tank until the Enyo comes along and this is one area that could be seen as a gap needing to be filled.  The Ku’s too slow, the Hachiman’s a Weapons carrier more than a tank and is a support vehicle.  The Oro is also too slow and too inflexible due to its wildly varying weapon ranges and its terrifyingly thin hide.  So the ‘medium tank’ area could be one for exploration and I think might be seen as the best form of a compromise candidate between the Clans who go REEEEEEEE!!! At the sheer thought of vehicles and those who see their utility.  And a medium vehicle wouldn’t consume the resources of a heavy or assault.

Main Battle Tank – Again an area the Clans generally lack.  The Oro’s more a defensive unit although how its meant to act as an AA gun with that short range LB-20 is beyond me.  And its not really until we get later things like the Axel IIC or Morrigu that the Clans get something like a real MBT.  Again, this I can see being a bit more popular but far rarer than Medium strike tanks.

 Assault Tank – Whilst the Clans have the Mars and its got enough firepower to make an assault dropship sit up and take notice, we know its not very common and only the Horses make them.  Assault tanks I think would be passed over by Quicksilver as they consume a large amount of resources, and take up valuable space in DropShips and are full of mobility limitations.  Maybe the Horses make an upgrade of the Mars but otherwise I’d say that to avoid a potential political hot potato the ilKhan does not authorize an assault tank under the Quicksilver program.  But perhaps he also does not specifically BAN one being built, so this could mean the Horses make a 95 ton tank or something for themselves etc.

 Weapon Carriers – We’ve already got two, the Athena and Huey, but both are really quite complex vehicles but I can see the Clans actually favouring a weapon carrier like vehicle.  Cheap to make and heavily armed if they have the firepower to delete a target or two then they’ve probably made their money back.  They’d almost certinally be a defensive unit though but this might be seen as a positive  because during the period of rebuilding, the Invader Clans need defensive units to bolster their PGC’s to defend against the near constant raiding that was going on in the period following Tukkayid.


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