OBT Forum

I am interested to hear what Bradshaw and marauder648 have to say on mixed caste vehicle crews. I believe a Technician is a natural co-pilot type. A Laborer doing menial task like loading fits well. Mercants and scientists could be interesting fits too but are they to valuable elsewhere?

Warships are a good example of inter caste combatants.

This also plays well to Blood Spirit as they use vehicles in line service and have armed their lower castes.

I am interested to hear what Bradshaw and marauder648 have to say on mixed caste vehicle crews. I believe a Technician is a natural co-pilot type. A Laborer doing menial task like loading fits well. Mercants and scientists could be interesting fits too but are they to valuable elsewhere?

Warships are a good example of inter caste combatants.

I could see more lenient clans using mixed crews but others would be vehemently against it. Id say on combat vehicles warrior gunner, technicians loader/supplemental and laborer drivers. Never merchants ans possibly scientists on very specialized equipment like mobile command or MASH unit

This also plays well to Blood Spirit as they use vehicles in line service and have armed their lower castes.

Truthfully im shocked someone hasn't called for their annihilation due to this

Merchants could run communications or be in charge of the ordinance as logistics is a major concern for them.

Yes could see that on warships and dropships not in a combat vehicle

Scientists being medics is certainly useful but i was also thinking of them as an strategic or tactical adviser to the warrior perhaps running the computers of larger vehicles.

Yes its why i mentioned mobile Command

Truthfully im shocked someone hasn't called for their annihilation due to this

Why do you think Burrock hates them so much?

Yea just was reading up on kind of surprised the council blew off this charge. I would have thought prior to burrock absorption Spirits and Adders would get along both are very espirit de corps

Just ask the French tank crews and the German tank crews in 1940 if specialised tasks made a difference.

I would need refresh my memory of this time period but i do recall french tanks were better than Germans but all German tanks had radios and the french only had a few allowing superior on the spot tactical changes to ofset their weakness. Didnt the Germans near the end roll out a couple super tanks weighing something like 200 tons

Im not a real big fan of Omnivehicles cost and clan philosophy with the dislike of sharing honor amongst crew makes vehicles freebirths and technicians the majority of crews and why would the Clans waste resources on them. With minor exceptions of course.

The LRM/SRM Carrier is the only obvious choice to maximise flexibility.
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Agree its why i did think possible in future once more missile combo weapons are available making it worthwhile.

Re WW2 and French tanks, two of their tanks the S-35 and B1 were superior in terms of protection to German tanks but the French problem was mostly doctrinal and the way they fought wasn't made to counter the Blitzkrieg. It could have if given a chance as they'd have fought a WW1 artillery based battle.  But all French tanks had a problem with 1 man turrets where the Commander was simply over worked having to perform the actions of gunner, loader and trying to command the tank and any nearby forces.

With regards the Clans and their tank crews this is how I see they get round their Honour issues.

1 - The Horses and other (if there was any) vehicle minded Clans, but mainly the Horses see the whole crew as a single Warrior.  They all work together and share the honour of battle between them.  That way tank crews are not as 'honourable' as the Mechwarriors but by working as a team (which the Horses emphasise for example) they can bring themselves honour.  This works 'best' with small crews who would stick together and work together.

2 - Less vehicle minded Clans also have this, but its not so they can all get honour, its for the most senior crewman who's probably a test down or Solhama who can get that honour, but its seen as a lesser form of fighting and not as capable, but still recognised for what they do.

3 - Real hardcore traditionalists (Jags, Falcons etc) "NO HONOUR FOR YOU! A DISHNOUR ON YOUR COW!" Tanks are viewed as at best a useful neccessity for garrison duties and the like and the realm of Solhama personnel who are expected to do something useful before dying.

Also Re the Spirits and their crewing of tanks.  Since 'arming the lower castes' is pretty much a huge no-no for the Clans and if found to be being done a very good case for someone to Absorb you or worse, the Spirits probably got around it with rules lawyering, following the word of the Great Father and Co rather than the Spirit which most of the Clans did.  In theory there was no law that stopped the Clans from letting lower castes actually test to try and improve their position and become Warriors, just a massive cultural bias against it that became unwritten law.  But if say the Spirits allowed lower castes to step forwards and try to get through a very harsh training regimen and the like that really weeded out numbers either through injury, death or failure, and the end result was say a cluster or two's worth of personnel, then following the exact letter of the Laws of the Clans, they've not done anything wrong as they are not mass arming their civvies.

I would need refresh my memory of this time period but i do recall french tanks were better than Germans but all German tanks had radios and the french only had a few allowing superior on the spot tactical changes to ofset their weakness. Didnt the Germans near the end roll out a couple super tanks weighing something like 200 tons

Re radios this is very true, and German tanks had generally superior layouts with a 3 man turret allowing the tank commander to actually command and direct the tank, not have to shift his focus between 3 jobs.  This made them much more flexible and able to react quicker, combined with far superior doctrine to the French, allowed their inferior tanks (the main tank of the German army was the Panzer III which had real issues against the heavily armoured French tanks, whilst the Panzer IV was a support tank at the time) to outfight the French.

And yep they were looking at some super heavy designs, one of which was completed with the Maus tank, which was utterly absurd and was just a waste of resources and would have been a barely mobile bunker that would make a fine target for allied aircraft.  There was also a design called the E-100 which they build part of.  Both of these tanks were well over 100 tons and are still the heaviest armoured vehicles ever made.


For some intersting vids about French tanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMqbkQcDe9E  this one very well illuminates the problem of overloading a tank commander and the problem that plagued all French tanks with their 1 man turrets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwREJT3KfgY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRRdUgAgpug / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfaVeZ_xjIc

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNMEobVlfM8 / https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71f9or59UdM

are interesting and quite amusing, the chap doing the vids is an ex tanker himself and is a military historian so he knows his stuff.

Blood Spirit
Stayed true to Kerensky's organization. Three BattleMech Trinaries, one Combat Vehicle Trinary and one Infantry Trinary for each cluster. Aerospace attached upon need by Naval Reserve.

Burrock
From the little I'm able to find on them they used Binaries as main organization with Mech x2/x3, Aerospace, & Elemental no vehicles but unable to find out anything about second line forces.

Cloud Cobra
Interesting Structure I see definitely the Aerospace clan

Frontline 2 to 3 Trinaries of Battlemech or Aerospace with Trinary of Battlearmor in most. It states uses conventional infantry and combat vehicles to augment defensive responsibilities but in no Cluster type do they list Armored Vehicles so possibly they are attached upon need.

Coyote
Conventional armor are treated as little more than cannon fodder or as an insult to be used against a hated foe.

Diamond Shark
No mention of vehicles at all in front or secondline forces

Fire Mandrill
Only found one Kindraa with vehicles and it was binary of solhema vehicles in Kindraa Payne-Beyl-Grant mentions they are Star League vintage vehicles.

Ghost Bear
Uses combat vehicles in phalanx clusters

Goliath Scorpion
I like their approach to organization but they use no vehicles.

Hell's Horses
The leaders in Combat vehicles utilize them in every cluster formation type.

Ice Hellions
Only utilized in Flurry clusters which tend to be disdained

Jade Falcons
No combat vehicles

Nova Cats
Combat vehicles being reserved for Solahmna units only

Smoke Jaguars
....Unknown surprising little information on Sarna about them. I would think no besides Solahmna units as well but possible.

Snow Ravens
Utilize stars of combat vehicles in some 2nd line clusters

Star Adders
Each Galaxy Commander has their own Command Trinary with two to three Support Trinaries, mostly conventional artillery. Gatekeeper clusters composed largely of conventional armor.

Steel Viper
Combat vehicles are used by second-line clusters, they are not common.

Wolf
Surprised to see nothing mentioned about Combat Vehicles besides a mention then of rogue formations consisting of Artillery support

After posting this I just saw Takiro posted this earlier in the thread lol

Combat Vehicle Roles 3052
Blood Spirit – Front Line (1)
Burrock – Solhama (3)
Cloud Cobra – Second Line (2)
Coyote – Solhama (3)
Diamond Shark – Solhama (3)
Fire Mandrill – varies; Kindraa Payne and Kline use Vehicles
Ghost Bear – Second Line (2)
Goliath Scorpion – Solhama (3)
Hell's Horses – Front Line (1)
Ice Hellion – Flurry (3)
Jade Falcon – Non-Combatant (4)
Nova Cat – Solhama (3)
Smoke Jaguar – Solhama (3)
Snow Raven – Second Line (2)
Star Adder – Second Line (2)
Steel Viper – Solhama (3)
Wolf – Solhama (3)

Combat Vehicle Roles 3052
Blood Spirit – Front Line (1)
Burrock – Solhama (3)
Cloud Cobra – Second Line (2)
Coyote – Solhama (3)
Diamond Shark – Solhama (3)
Fire Mandrill – varies; Kindraa Payne and Kline use Vehicles
Ghost Bear – Second Line (2)
Goliath Scorpion – Solhama (3)
Hell's Horses – Front Line (1)
Ice Hellion – Flurry (3)
Jade Falcon – Non-Combatant (4)
Nova Cat – Solhama (3)
Smoke Jaguar – Solhama (3)
Snow Raven – Second Line (2)
Star Adder – Second Line (2)
Steel Viper – Solhama (3)
Wolf – Solhama (3)

Good stuff guys, i never did a post Quicksilver (3054) listing of the Clans and it should be a priority.

Blood Spirit - rapidly upgrading their front line vehicle forces along with their Mech forces has left this Clan indebted to the Diamond Sharks in particular who are part of the growing Wolf-Star Adder alliance drawing the Clans closer together. They likely remain the second biggest users of OmniVehicles.

Burrock - one the birthplaces of the Reactionary Foresaken philosophy the Clan decomissioned all vehicle units even solhama insisting they are entirely outmoded in modern day warfare. Noting the frequent changes in the Burrock TO&E over the years critics say it is only a matter of time before they change back.